Pooh_Jeter wrote: Here is the difference, the Knicks and Pacers actually took MJ to the brink, the Raptors NEVER made LeBron sweat. If you think that 6 game series was actually close you're delusional. It's the most lopsided 6 game series in NBA history according to point differential.
Sure, if LeBron magically wasn't there maybe the Raptors make the Finals, but if they were in the West I bet they don't even make it out of the first round. Hypotheticals work both ways.
Regular season success isn't indicative of playoff success. Don't tell me what I can or can't watch. Why do all you Masai truthers try to act like my parents? I couldn't care less if Danny1616 thinks I shouldn't watch ball. I'd never say something that lame to someone.
Way to pick and choose.
The 37 win and 8th seed Atlanta Hawks took the 1st seed Celtics who eventually won the chip to the brink in the 2008 playoffs.
Many lower seeded teams have taken top seeded teams to the "brink."
I value a great franchise with great management by their consistency over a large period of time.
For 7 seasons we have been an elite team in the NBA. We have won 50+ games five times, won a championship, made the ECF and made the semi-finals 3 times.
Only a handful of teams over the past 7 years can even rival what we've accomplished and those teams had to have either Lebron, Steph or KD.
The Pacers and Knicks were good for extended periods of time and YOU brought them up. Take the L.
First, I'm speaking about the past 7 years.
Second, I'm using Pacers and Knicks as examples of teams that were contenders who could never get over the hump.
Third, remember when you tried to predict that Brooklyn would beat us in the playoffs?
Pooh_Jeter wrote: How about you read the initial argument?
He said the NBA is the hardest of the big 4 to win a championship. I said no, it isn't. Where did I then say it was child's play to win a championship? Of course it's hard to secure a top 5/10 player, but with one move you can become a contender. You can't make one move like that and become a contender in the other 3 major leagues.
You stated and I quote "The NBA is probably the easiest of the big 4 to win a championship"
And yes, it is the hardest to win a championship if you are a team like Toronto Raptors. With a GM like Masai Ujiri, it'd actually be easier in those other leagues.
And I don't recall Lakers becoming a contender after adding LeBron, who to me is #2 overall GOAT. And I don't consider a team like the Rockets a contender either. Even in the NBA where one star can have the greater impact than other team sports, it's not as simple as just adding a top player. Why do you think Bucks have been bounced out in the fashion they have been? And no, I don't consider them a contender either.
I was in a quote thread with Danny1616, you jumped in out of context and then deleted the evidence. The Rockets took the prime Warriors to the brink, they were absolutely contenders until Harden blew up the team.
LeBron was hurt for most of last year and look at where they are now.
Houston could never get over the hump.
Harden and Westbrook just got destroyed by the Lakers.
Rockets blew a 2-0 to the Warriors despite KD getting hurt last year.
You literally just supported my argument that it's very difficult to win a chip even when you have a great team. For a variety of circumstances the Rockets could never get over the hump. Does that make Harden a terrible player and Morey a terrible GM? No.
Teams like the Raptors and the Rockets have consistently been elite teams in the NBA over the past few years. Raptors managed to get over the hump and the Rockets didn't. Both Masai and Morey are top tier GMs.
Pooh_Jeter wrote: Lol, I bet you fist pump after every post you make. "Yeah Johnny Bball, you got that guy good!"
It's subjective. It's usually the top 2 seeds in the conference, but it depends on roster construction and match ups going into the playoffs. This year was more wide open than most.
Every basketball expert and even coach/executive will tell you the regular season and playoffs are far different. There is a major difference between 16 game players and 82 game players.
So the top two seeds in each conference. The Lakers and the Clippers are likely the best teams in the west by far because of their talent and stars, win or lose, by those experts. And yet here you are saying Dallas, Nuggets, Portland are all competing which those same experts using your logic would say it not possible. And by your logic, this year the raptors were not competitive and have no future chance though.
I don't fist pump. I just shake my head at how hypocritical, negative and **** up the logic is that you use to continue your narrative.
I'll also assume we shouldn't hear a complaint from you since we have 6 more years after winning last year to get competitive again under this GM for him to be good.
Did you notice how I said it's subjective, but it tends to be the top 2 seeds? Notice I didn't outright say "ONLY TOP 2 SEEDS CAN BE CONTENDERS." For a guy with such an inflated ego and sense of his own self worth you sure don't like to read and understand what you are responding to.
I even said this year was more wide open than others because the defending champs lost their best player and the Warriors imploded. You're such an angry dude, your blood pressure must be sky high. Have a glass of milk and a cookie, you deserve it.
Oh ok... said two and it's subjective but now we're up to five and I'll leave out the other star in Houston and Harden. And the Warriors. But yeah... 7, I mean 5, 5 is close to subjective right? But only for those three teams you listed, not the Raptors. The entire thing is so laughable hypocritical. You're such a bitter person and you know what I would tell you do, but you would only just get offended. My blood pressure is pretty perfect, thanks much for caring so much.
Johnny Bball wrote: So the top two seeds in each conference. The Lakers and the Clippers are likely the best teams in the west by far because of their talent and stars, win or lose, by those experts. And yet here you are saying Dallas, Nuggets, Portland are all competing which those same experts using your logic would say it not possible. And by your logic, this year the raptors were not competitive and have no future chance though.
I don't fist pump. I just shake my head at how hypocritical, negative and **** up the logic is that you use to continue your narrative.
I'll also assume we shouldn't hear a complaint from you since we have 6 more years after winning last year to get competitive again under this GM for him to be good.
Did you notice how I said it's subjective, but it tends to be the top 2 seeds? Notice I didn't outright say "ONLY TOP 2 SEEDS CAN BE CONTENDERS." For a guy with such an inflated ego and sense of his own self worth you sure don't like to read and understand what you are responding to.
I even said this year was more wide open than others because the defending champs lost their best player and the Warriors imploded. You're such an angry dude, your blood pressure must be sky high. Have a glass of milk and a cookie, you deserve it.
Oh ok... said two and it's subjective but now we're up to five and I'll leave our the other star in Houston and Harden. and the Warriors. But yeah... 7, I mean 5, 5 is close to subjective right? But only for those three teams you listed, not the Raptors. The entire thing is so laughable hypocritical. You're such a bitter person and you know what I would tell you do, but you would only just get offended. My blood pressure is pretty perfect, thanks much for caring so much.
Yup, tell the Whinnie the Poo to let us know when Dallas, Denver, Portland or Indiana ever have 5 straight 50+ win seasons, a conference finals appearance, 3 semi-final appearances and a championship.
He keeps acting like those teams already won championships when they havn't done anything yet apart from getting booted early in the playoffs multiple times.
Johnny Bball wrote: So the top two seeds in each conference. The Lakers and the Clippers are likely the best teams in the west by far because of their talent and stars, win or lose, by those experts. And yet here you are saying Dallas, Nuggets, Portland are all competing which those same experts using your logic would say it not possible. And by your logic, this year the raptors were not competitive and have no future chance though.
I don't fist pump. I just shake my head at how hypocritical, negative and **** up the logic is that you use to continue your narrative.
I'll also assume we shouldn't hear a complaint from you since we have 6 more years after winning last year to get competitive again under this GM for him to be good.
Did you notice how I said it's subjective, but it tends to be the top 2 seeds? Notice I didn't outright say "ONLY TOP 2 SEEDS CAN BE CONTENDERS." For a guy with such an inflated ego and sense of his own self worth you sure don't like to read and understand what you are responding to.
I even said this year was more wide open than others because the defending champs lost their best player and the Warriors imploded. You're such an angry dude, your blood pressure must be sky high. Have a glass of milk and a cookie, you deserve it.
Oh ok... said two and it's subjective but now we're up to five and I'll leave out the other star in Houston and Harden. And the Warriors. But yeah... 7, I mean 5, 5 is close to subjective right? But only for those three teams you listed, not the Raptors. The entire thing is so laughable hypocritical. You're such a bitter person and you know what I would tell you do, but you would only just get offended. My blood pressure is pretty perfect, thanks much for caring so much.
What are you even trying to say? You still can't seem to comprehend my point. Judging a contender is subjective. There are seasons where it's 3 or 4 teams, there are some where it's 7 or 8 teams. How do you not understand what I'm trying to say.
I enjoy your projecting. You're the one who has to compose yourself from lobbing insults at me. I bet you're literally beet red replying to me.
alienchild wrote:Again, I hope the basketball gods give us the 14th pick in the draft. I hope OG asks for a trade, Birch signs elsewhere and GTJ signs an offer sheet and Raptors don't match. Frankly Masai is dead to me.
I think you are a good poster, I have said this before, not that it means anything but lets preface with that because of your posts complaining.
Spoiler:
Steelo Green wrote:The posts in this thread are pretty funny and filled with conjecture pertaining to what the discussion is actually about:
-not being happy with a title (no we are happy but adding nuance to Masai’s tenure is a fair discussion) -being new fans who haven’t seen the dark days (seen it all but I don’t compare to Colangelo or Mighty Mouse not wanting to be here, just trying to create a contender for years to come and looking at the mediocre Lebronto years that seems to be back again) -that we’re looking for attention (ironic considering a post asking for attention is asking for attention) -anger that we do not understand basketball or are haters or could do a better job (yes critique means we could do a better job. It’s the same as blindly following to critique it just doesn’t go with the household narrative that Masai is infallible) -personal shots which is my fav and short quips for +1, and yet not actually responding to valid points made (barring a few and to those I give respect)
You are so persecuted against, im going to give you what you want then, some civil discourse. Alot of irony here but lets go.
1- He isnt even one full season removed from winning a title. Nuance is fine.
2- EVERYONE (thats not even hyperbole) wants to win an OB. MU has put us in a good position for that (so far). The DD era was great, im sorry again only championships satiate you, but it had 5 str PO appearances, 3 times to the 2nd round and an ECF. I still look back at the BK series in Jurassic with those fans fondly. Losing hurts sure, but theres no shame being a top 8-4 team unless you didnt aspire to be better. We did and anyone know who the Champs are??
3- Im going to bring up a topic that in the OP I acknowledge is going to lead to "the personal jabs and people questioning if I watch basketball or hate myself ", so yes you were and are getting it. Did you think it was going to be compliments and ppl agreeing in unison?? this isnt even a polarizing subject.
4- See 3. Cite your sources for "the household narrative that Masai is infallible"?
5- See 3. Except ppl are bringing up alot of valid points despite you dismissing them.
This a very simple concept. I need things defined, because you use a common trait here, and its these nebulous terms.
Spoiler:
First of all, the last top 2 player traded away was?
When has that happened in the history of the league exactly?
I think we would have to go back to Kareem so Kawhi isn’t happening again.
Also we’re not a a player away. We would be swept without Kyle winning those three games. His loss and we fall back quite a bit.
In the East who is better now: Boston, Brooklyn, Milwaukee, Miami, Indiana.
Kyle is not going to be Kyle for a lot longer and then you have the hilariously bad core of Fred/OG/Pascal.
Define top 2 player? We will likely need your top 2 for every yr going back to Kareem for clarity. Kawhi coming off that injury was top 2?? I mean if were talking about the Kawhi trade, were missing ALOT of NUANCE.
Does KD count? How about Lebron? I guess you will use the S&Ts dont count angle but again, its easy to be obtuse. KG? Shaq?? We dont have an answer for top 2 and what a trade entails, so I digress.
Also, you are literally arguing on behalf of MUs greatness, very few pull it off, im still amazed. Also he fleeced the better (your words) Buford/Pops.
How do we know a Kawhi isnt happening? your point above about conjecture.
Theres a case for and against, this isnt a zero sum argument. We have a relatively young roster, as some vets tail off, I hope those young/er players improve. We have great cap flexibility, alot of assets (young too), all our picks, what more can the president do one yr removed from winning a championship and losing their generational talent??
Again, conjecture. We dont even know if FVV is on this roster, much less what any of these teams look like.
Kyle will regress, okay. That core isnt "hilariously bad", thats your valuation (thats fair) and thats a completely separate argument given FVV is a UFA.
So lets get back to your original argument.
Spoiler:
I preface this with saying Masai is a fine President, but that people need to stop looking at him as one of the elite of the elite President's in basketball.
Before I get "you are a hater who doesn't watch basketball", just a reminder I was the one saying Pascal and Fred will struggle big time against the Celtics and if you pay Fred 25 million, you will be stuck with one of the worst contracts in the NBA. I am only speaking in facts so as to make people realize that Masai is good but looking overall, he has had a lot of bad and the current state of the team isn't exactly much to write home about.
Now, when Masai took the team, he started strong, one of the best trades in franchise history (Bargs), and then Rudy Gay for the Sacramento package that netted us players to help make us a playoff team and get Vasquez who netted us OG and Norm.
Great start to his presidency.
Now I will give him a pass at the draft given that he took a project in Bruno and that he is relatively a great drafter (though Capella, Bogdanovic, Jokic, Grant, Dinwiddie, Harris, Powell, and Clarkson were all on the board).
Now, Kyle was basically traded to the Knicks but they backed out because they didn't want to get fleeced again, which in the end turned out great for us because Kyle has now had a borderline HOF career, but it cannot be ignored that he was going to trade him for MWP, Shumpert and a 2018 first rounder (which if the Knicks had Kyle would likely be a middling pick at best).
Okay, deals fall apart, let us leave that as well, but the next part cannot be ignored.
Masai signs Demarre Carroll who has recently had injuries to his Achilles and knee, two of the most red flag injuries in the league, and he not only signs him, but pays him 15 million dollars to be his "Lebron Stopper". 15 mil back then is something like 20+ currently for a 4-6 option on any good team. A similar player in Jae Crowder makes 7 mil in the current CBA with a higher cap. Luckily Wes Matthews was injured, otherwise Masai's plan was to sign him as well.
Okay, a blemish on the record is pretty common for most GM's, so let us say it was a mistake, but then if we start compounding it with others...
Masai had a core of Kyle, Val, and Derozan with their coach Casey for years. This core that kept getting embarrassed. Somehow Casey was not fired after the Wizards sweep (first time in NBA history the team with home court advantage was swept), and we continued to go with the same guys who had major issues in Demar who was one of the worst defenders in the league and who was unwilling/unable to learn the 3 point shot, which in today's NBA makes him a hugely flawed player.
Now he has some solid hits, signing Biyombo, Poetl is a tbd but got Kawhi so that's fine, and obviously leaving out contract, getting Pascal at 27 is a steal.
Then of course Fred not too long after which is again, a great gem of an undrafted player.
So some great moves by Masai, with some questionable ones, the biggest being that he kept going with a flawed core from the coach to their "star player".
Kyle and Serge are FA's in 2017, after a sweep to the Cavs and what do we do? We sign Kyle to a 30 million dollar deal for 2 years, and Serge to a 20+ million dollar deal. Kyle who didn't have a market and even asked to go to SA who didn't want him, and Serge who is a backup big in the NBA. For comparisons sake Brooke Lopez makes 13 million dollars as an all-star who is better than Serge in almost every facet.
We have a trend here of Masai handing out horrible deals left and right, which is the huge fear I have moving forward with Fred.
Masai then has to unload the horrendous contract of Carroll by trading a first and a second rounder to the Nets. Horrible asset management.
Solid pick in OG who is going to be a longstanding 3D in this league.
Then the big move, Kawhi. After years of going with a flawed core, a mediocre coach, a one in a million chance to get a player of Kawhi's caliber for one season comes along, and he jumps at it. Great trade of course, the best we have ever made, he carried us to the title.
Now of course one could say, but he did make the Kawhi trade, and he did get the title, sure, I agree, as I have said, this isn't a Masai is the worst GM in basketball, more so he is not this Godlike figure he is made out to be. If you look back he is great with drafting, trading for depth, but has huge issues with asset management in terms of contracts, handing out some of the worst deals in the league (such has Pascal and his max before he had done anything to earn it), and going with a flawed core. Masai also has huge issues with finding elite talent. Kawhi he got only because of the one year off very odd situation, but talent wise Toronto has never gotten great talent through Masai. Lot of good talent and depth pieces, but now that Kawhi is gone we don't really have any star power. Great coaching and depth but no starpower.
Masai will be here a long time, we all know that, but his patience and lucking into Kawhi do not forgive what we currently have. Kawhi is gone and we don't look very different to the Demar team and are severely lacking in elite talent.
If he keeps running the course it will be those same Demar years and the same people who hated those mediocre teams, the ones that were never truly a contender, and the chances a one in a million Kawhi trade happen again are slim to none.
GMs jobs are to build a sustained contender, and a one off title doesn't forgive Masai for prior to one season a mediocre Presidency.
He is not an elite President (or whatever "elite of the elite" is supposed to mean). How do we define that? You only use personnel moves, id say that actually is a very narrow view.
You knew FVV/PS would struggle vs the Cs, im not sure that is an exclusive take but okay.
If FVV is given a 25 mil contract, its going to be the worst contract in the L. Lets start with who knows what he will get, but using that premise, he would be in line pay wise to LMA/Adams/Vuc/Freak and T39th highest. Have you seen John Walls contract for starters?? There are very few value signings in the NBA that arent on rookie/RFA level contracts. To summarize, conjecture.
The current state of the team is actually infact great by multiple measures. Team valuation keeps going up. Our brand is huge. TV ratings in his era are unprecedented. We have a great personnel from McKechnie to Nurse to Webster to Tolzman and so on. We have a great infrastructure even in terms of data from Watson to SportsVu. Our cap situation is great. We have young assets. We have all our picks. So you should write home about it.
So im going to skip the praises (Bargs move/etc..) because we arent disagreeing there.
Now lets preface with some things, arguing in hindsight of better players taken after someone, is not some egregious thing. Every GM has this, so its hardly an indictment.
Bruno was a swing/miss, its a testament to his anthrometrics hes still in the L. As a late first, whatever.
So he didnt trade Kyle. Bob Myers was going to trade Steph for Bogut. So what? You act like youre just gonna gloss over that part, but glossed over this.
Spoiler:
A tense meeting with Ujiri wouldn’t be a first, either. Ujiri didn’t trade for Lowry. He was hired in 2013, a year after the Raptors acquired Lowry from Houston for a first-round pick and little-used swingman Gary Forbes. Ujiri loved Lowry’s talent. His fearlessness. His ferocity. He hated his body language and his defiant attitude. Before training camp that fall, Ujiri called Lowry into his office. He challenged him. He said Lowry could be a $4 million per year player or a $12 million per year man. Lowry heard him. He responded with a career-best season, improving his scoring average from 11.6 points to 17.9 and propelling Toronto into the playoffs.
Lowry has often credited his turning around to that meeting, and the DD relationship. I think thats important since I havent seen how he fosters relations as a President being considered in his success.
The DMC move was a mistake. And what do great Presidents do, they ship them out before the duration of the contract. He didnt compound it by keeping him and forcing him into the lineup.
The DD/DC era. Yes there was some blights on those results, getting swept 3 of 9 series is rough. We also had some of the highest highs this franchise has ever had, and that era was successful. Again going to the 2nd round 3 of 5 yrs is an accomplishment. I didnt like DD/JV, it doesnt mean they didnt contribute to a winning franchise. Also those assets facilitated trades for better players.
So he rolled with a core, which he signed to all roughly the same length. The idea being we give this relatively young team 2 shots to get an OB. So far, im on board, esp because the term was what everyone was freaking out about. You dont know what kind of market KL/SI had. $$$ over term for both Serge/KL. Not a bad move IMO. In regards to FVV im not sure why you see a trend, because those guys were signed under different reasons than say the DMC blight.
So now MU is demonized because he shipped out DMC for 29th/59th picks to get cap room to sign KL/SI, okay. I do miss Dzanan Musa and George king too.
In the meantime we ignored the Rudy trade, the Salmons trade for Lou/Big Nog, the Vasquez trade, the Delon draft pick, the TRoss trade, the Sullinger trade, the new Norm contract. So lets skip those because you were so gracious giving MU other things he did correctly.
Then the big move. Well lets stop for a second. First we changed HCs. So that narrative all above now becomes moot, he didnt even wait out their contracts. So okay we get Nurse, another great move. Then because he refuses to move on from "the core", he goes on to move on from "the core". Then later in the season despite all the love for JoBaka, he goes and gets Gasol who goes on to shut down Vuc/Embiid.
So now he makes 2 great moves, one he has done for the most part of his career, and its like well hey somehow landing a generational talent by trade for one of the most polarizing Raptors just isnt enough. It was Bobby. It was Luck. Sure, it was alot of factors, but no other team did it, the Rpators did. He accomplished that. His patience was rewarded. All those negatives you built up about the core got us an OB. Its what hes building now too.
We have TD2/FVV/Boucher/OG/Spicy/Norm all <= 27. We find talent in the late rounds/2nds/undrafted like its nothing.
So your argument is very simple, ONE yr removed from a championship, how is MU going to get a generational talent?? Probably the same way he did last time, keep the cap clean, retain assets, draft well and hit homeruns on trades. Will it work? Probably the same likelihood as any other method (rebuilding/tanking/etc..), but why not follow the same plan that literally netted you a championship less than 1 yr ago??
In the end, few ppl are arguing that MU is infallible, fewer think hes not elite. Youre arguing on behalf and to the fringes. Im not even delving into data yet, this is just the discourse.
What makes MU bad is because, and im paraphrasing, is because you hate the core and their contracts (even the ones yet to sign), and the DMC signing/trade. So is that all that matters??
What you need to define (if youre actually serious) for your premise is...
- Define success for a President to be "the elite of the elite" (whatever that means). - Define all avenues of his success metrics. - Define who the top 2 players are of every yr so we can see how viable this strategy really is, and was Kawhi really top 2. - Define what you mean by trading, do S&Ts count as an example. - Define what the rosters/contract #s look like next yr, so we can be sure were behind IND for instance.
Pooh_Jeter wrote: How about you read the initial argument?
He said the NBA is the hardest of the big 4 to win a championship. I said no, it isn't. Where did I then say it was child's play to win a championship? Of course it's hard to secure a top 5/10 player, but with one move you can become a contender. You can't make one move like that and become a contender in the other 3 major leagues.
You stated and I quote "The NBA is probably the easiest of the big 4 to win a championship"
And yes, it is the hardest to win a championship if you are a team like Toronto Raptors. With a GM like Masai Ujiri, it'd actually be easier in those other leagues.
And I don't recall Lakers becoming a contender after adding LeBron, who to me is #2 overall GOAT. And I don't consider a team like the Rockets a contender either. Even in the NBA where one star can have the greater impact than other team sports, it's not as simple as just adding a top player. Why do you think Bucks have been bounced out in the fashion they have been? And no, I don't consider them a contender either.
I was in a quote thread with Danny1616, you jumped in out of context and then deleted the evidence. The Rockets took the prime Warriors to the brink, they were absolutely contenders until Harden blew up the team.
LeBron was hurt for most of last year and look at where they are now.
You are in a constant argument with different people that you are confused. You were actually arguing with a different person. Don't come accuse me of something when you can't even get your own story straight.
I'm surprised you are posting so much BS left and right and don't even realize this message board deletes older things in quotes by itself. Shoulda seen it in your own posts.
As to Rockets and Lakers. It's come to a point Rockets excuses of coming up short everytime are just that. Excuses. Harden just isn't that guy and you are not winning with him at the top. Even after LeBron came back, they had a chance to still make the playoffs and didn't. He shut things down when it was clear they were losing games even after he came back.
Steelo Green wrote:I preface this with saying Masai is a fine President, but that people need to stop looking at him as one of the elite of the elite President's in basketball.
Curious to know who you rank above Masai?
I listed them already but:
Buford, Riley, West, Myers.
I think Masai is somewhere in the Presti and Morey category.
Could you explain the Riley pick? He also lucked into a superstar and couldn't get him to stay after his contract was over. 3 playoff appearances in the past 5 years. Questionable contracts given to role players. These are the same things you're critiquing Masai for
Pooh_Jeter wrote: Did you notice how I said it's subjective, but it tends to be the top 2 seeds? Notice I didn't outright say "ONLY TOP 2 SEEDS CAN BE CONTENDERS." For a guy with such an inflated ego and sense of his own self worth you sure don't like to read and understand what you are responding to.
I even said this year was more wide open than others because the defending champs lost their best player and the Warriors imploded. You're such an angry dude, your blood pressure must be sky high. Have a glass of milk and a cookie, you deserve it.
Oh ok... said two and it's subjective but now we're up to five and I'll leave out the other star in Houston and Harden. And the Warriors. But yeah... 7, I mean 5, 5 is close to subjective right? But only for those three teams you listed, not the Raptors. The entire thing is so laughable hypocritical. You're such a bitter person and you know what I would tell you do, but you would only just get offended. My blood pressure is pretty perfect, thanks much for caring so much.
What are you even trying to say? You still can't seem to comprehend my point. Judging a contender is subjective. There are seasons where it's 3 or 4 teams, there are some where it's 7 or 8 teams. How do you not understand what I'm trying to say.
I enjoy your projecting. You're the one who has to compose yourself from lobbing insults at me. I bet you're literally beet red replying to me.
Oh, now your left with pretending you don't understand me.
How about this one. Lebron James was the reason nobody came out of the east for 8 years but him. People keep saying Lebronto here, but it included the entire conference. Kawhi Leonard, by you admission, was the only reason the Raptors won last year. Here you have these two guys on those two teams, who you just recently admitted to being so great.
And you throw in 3 other teams that are likely not even as good as those two teams, or the two teams you left out... and call them competitive in that conference. 8 teams are now competitive because its subjective? 8 teams in a conference have NEVER been competitive. You realize these three can't even be in the top 4 iif you wanted to make if 4? But the Raptors can't be competitive in the east ever as we know the subjectivity of the future that you see involves the entire conference being better? No, what it is, is an entire pile of trash and hypocrisy and you can't find a way out of it and keep digging your hole deeper. You could just stop, and should have long ago....but it's such a narrative with you that we keep adding more teams competing with every post just for you to justify it to yourself, that Masai sucks.
Pooh_Jeter wrote: Blah, blah, blah, vomit... For a guy with such an inflated ego and sense of his own self worth you sure don't like to read and understand what you are responding to...blah, blah, blah.
I used to joke that if the Raptors ever won a championship, there would be a few posters who would dismiss the Raps’ accomplishment because the Raptors didn’t win a second championship.
Steelo Green wrote:GMs jobs are to build a sustained contender, and a one off title doesn't forgive Masai for prior to one season a mediocre Presidency.
Your post was full of pseudo-intellectual and inconsistent statements, but this might have been my favourite.
If your definition of 'sustained contender' is narrowly defined, such as a team that is either favoured to win a 'chip year over year, then virtually no executive fits this description. Dynasties are super rare and you need a lot of luck to stumble into one.
If your definition of 'sustained contender' is broader (and more appropriately) defined as a team that in any given year, can make a deep run in the playoffs, then he fits the description.
Just an awful take that stands out in a forum full of awful takes, which is saying something.
Many wanted his head and Kawhi (a move that has only happened once with Kareem) falls into his lap and all is forgiven when a year later we are devoid of talent again.
All I am saying is look at the current state of talent and the fact that Kyle is at the end of his days and wonder what we really are.
The Fred deal will certainly dictate the future of Masai and in two years is when people will see what I’m saying right now.
Steelo Green wrote:The cult like support of Masai is pretty funny.
Many wanted his head and Kawhi (a move that has only happened once with Kareem) falls into his lap and all is forgiven when a year later we are devoid of talent again.
All I am saying is look at the current state of talent and the fact that Kyle is at the end of his days and wonder what we really are.
The Fred deal will certainly dictate the future of Masai and in two years is when people will see what I’m saying right now.
..and fairweather ****ing fans are pretty funny. Goal is a championship. He did that.
7 years of playoffs, and you want to say he didn't sustain a "championship" level team? Can point out many GMs who have? Can you point out what teams in the east overcame LeBron during those 7 years. Or teams who have managed to build this sustainable champion?
Heat managed 4 years of success to that level due to James. Warriors managed 3 years due to luck of Steph Curry being on a cheap deal and once in a generation cap changes.
Team is devoid of talent? This Pascal hate is comical at best. The team has all future picks, assets , and 2 very good young players in Pascal/OG.
Bandwagon fans, exit to the right. Really I'm happy to see you go.
You're missing the forest for the trees. Championship aside, Masai built an organizational culture that finds undrafted free agents and turns them into borderline all stars. His late 1sts are actual all stars and all nba defensive level players.
We're in this current state because we sold out to win a title and backed it up with a super gratifying defense that cemented the legacy of Kyle Lowry, GOAT Raptor. It was clearly worth it.
As long as we maintain a culture of winning we'll continue to attract undervalued assets and be in a position to sign really good players or trade for them using our players that so many other teams want because we develop winners.
Danny1616 wrote:The reality is that had Lebron not been in the East, the Raptors had a legitimate chance to make the finals in multiple seasons.
DeMar DeRozan is legendarily bad in the playoffs, so I'm not even sure the Raptors make the Finals more than once in a hypothetical LeBron-less East from 2014 to 2018. (and I haven't even gotten into the Patterson/Carroll/Ross/Valanciunas/etc. junk role players who do nothing of note in the playoffs as well.)
VanWest82 wrote:You're missing the forest for the trees. Championship aside, Masai built an organizational culture that finds undrafted free agents and turns them into borderline all stars. His late 1sts are actual all stars and all nba defensive level players.
We're in this current state because we sold out to win a title and backed it up with a super gratifying defense that cemented the legacy of Kyle Lowry, GOAT Raptor. It was clearly worth it.
As long as we maintain a culture of winning we'll continue to attract undervalued assets and be in a position to sign really good players or trade for them using our players that so many other teams want because we develop winners.
Things changed for us when Masai pounced on the opportunity to bring Leonard to Toronto. Before that trade, we were stuck with overpaid vets, possessed zero surefire prospects, and had DeRozan at his lowest ever trade value. On top of that, the rest of the East started getting way stronger around that time. The Raptors future looked pretty hopeless at the time - and then, out of nowhere, Masai somehow managed to dump DeRozan onto the Spurs' lap in exchange for Leonard (and Green), without giving up Siakam or Anunoby. Instant title contender overnight. And then Siakam broke out and became MIP. The rest is history.
The Kawhi trade proved that Masai was serious about winning championships and putting the Raptors in position to win titles whenever he could. Masai has been excellent, especially since that offseason.
Steelo Green wrote:The cult like support of Masai is pretty funny.
Many wanted his head and Kawhi (a move that has only happened once with Kareem) falls into his lap and all is forgiven when a year later we are devoid of talent again.
All I am saying is look at the current state of talent and the fact that Kyle is at the end of his days and wonder what we really are.
The Fred deal will certainly dictate the future of Masai and in two years is when people will see what I’m saying right now.
Or maybe the issue is the contrarian with little evidence beyond supposition/conjecture?? The irony here is too much. I tried.
