Back on the treadmill

[Kingsway_fan]

if we can re tool via picks for Lowry .. we will be young and talented to compete for years ... hopefully by trade deadline or sooner, masai pulls the trigger ...

[Steelo Green]

eh, ppl on here want a legitmate contender and what u describe is not that. its literally what we were prior to kawhi lmao which many felt was a treadmill.

at the end of the day, we all want to see them win. if we arent in the shortlist of contenders, how are we much different then those at 5-8 lol.

I don’t understand how people have forgotten the Bosh years or Demar years.

Winning 50 games and getting kicked out round two is not a contender.

A contender requires a superstar player. We got one for a year, won a title and now he’s gone. I thought after Kawhi people wouldn’t support a mediocre core but here we are.

“But Demar and Kyle win 50 games!”

Winning in the playoffs is where it matters and no one can truly be excited of title aspirations post Kyle (or with Kyle for that matter).

And this we will wait for a disgruntled superstar nonsense needs to end. A player of Kawhis caliber is almost never available.

Harden isn’t even on Kawhis level. And even if we got him, the team post trade is going to be gutted unlike the Demar trade which was pennies on the dollar because of Kawhi potentially not showing up and the huge injury concerns.

That would be different if your core was old and was not getting better. We are in the perfect position where our best players are still getting better. We have no bad contracts, have all of our picks and are continuing to get better.

This isn’t a wizards, pacers and pistons situation.

We are continuing to get better? We don’t have a superstar level talent.

We are limited in our ceiling and that’s the point.

Demar kept getting better too remember.

I like all our guys but they are just 2-4 pieces at best.

I don’t think Pascal is a great contract. Fred is okay.

OG will be signed and we will be capped out with a young core that has no top 20-25 player.

[brownbobcat]

You still dont understand that the DD era brought us a championship. The team since 2013 built a very good core and they developed tradable assets that put the franchise in a position to trade for a disgruntled star. If they were tanking instead, like many people like you were suggesting at the time, the Raps would've never won a title.

The Raps are in a very similar position again.

That's an underrated point. It also ignores the point that you don't need to be intentionally terrible in order to get a good pick. You can move guys like VV, Siakam, OG, etc. down the road for picks if the situation merits and if there's a player they feel strongly about. If Billy King blackmails an owner into another GM job and offers 3 1st rounders for Lowry, then Masai would probably do the smart thing and move him.

Portland traded away Wallace to get Lillard, but they kept Aldrige, Batum & Matthews
Houston put together a package of mid-round picks and vets to get Harden
When Dirk faded, Dallas kept trying to sign non-superstars they could and packaged multiple 1sts to move up for Luka
Miami fought & scraped after the Heatles era to keep improving each year and did the best they could with mid/late lotto picks, biding their time with free agency.

None of this is easy and there's a lot of luck involved. But I don't understand fans who want to blow everything up right this instant just because Toronto's not winning a title this year. The struggle is part of the process. Otherwise, just switch allegiances to LA this year if rings are all that matter.

[Steelo Green]

eh, ppl on here want a legitmate contender and what u describe is not that. its literally what we were prior to kawhi lmao which many felt was a treadmill.

at the end of the day, we all want to see them win. if we arent in the shortlist of contenders, how are we much different then those at 5-8 lol.

I don’t understand how people have forgotten the Bosh years or Demar years.

Winning 50 games and getting kicked out round two is not a contender.

A contender requires a superstar player. We got one for a year, won a title and now he’s gone. I thought after Kawhi people wouldn’t support a mediocre core but here we are.

“But Demar and Kyle win 50 games!”

Winning in the playoffs is where it matters and no one can truly be excited of title aspirations post Kyle (or with Kyle for that matter).

And this we will wait for a disgruntled superstar nonsense needs to end. A player of Kawhis caliber is almost never available.

Harden isn’t even on Kawhis level. And even if we got him, the team post trade is going to be gutted unlike the Demar trade which was pennies on the dollar because of Kawhi potentially not showing up and the huge injury concerns.

You still dont understand that the DD era brought us a championship. The team since 2013 built a very good core and they developed tradable assets that put the franchise in a position to trade for a disgruntled star. If they were tanking instead, like many people like you were suggesting at the time, the Raps would've never won a title.

The Raps are in a very similar position again.

Really? This again?

It didn’t. We lucked in on a one in a million trade.

Again Kawhi level players are literally never available. And even if they were, you would have to gut the team, not pennies on the dollar to get one.

Stop acting like the Kawhi trade is a common theme in the NBA. It’s not. You said stars are always traded - false. True superstars are almost never traded and if they are it’s usually an AD situation.

No trade for a Kawhi is happening. You’re hoping for a pipe dream. Masai lucked into it just like he ran with a mediocre group. Don’t ignore the years of laughing stock because of a one in a million trade.

What very good core? Demar and Kyle were a mediocre (but better than what we are about to have) core.

We’re in the same position as before but this time it’s more likely than not we don’t land a rare of all rare trades (a former finals MVP traded at the time in their prime happened twice, three times if you include Shaq).

[Pooh_Jeter]

I don’t understand how people have forgotten the Bosh years or Demar years.

Winning 50 games and getting kicked out round two is not a contender.

A contender requires a superstar player. We got one for a year, won a title and now he’s gone. I thought after Kawhi people wouldn’t support a mediocre core but here we are.

“But Demar and Kyle win 50 games!”

Winning in the playoffs is where it matters and no one can truly be excited of title aspirations post Kyle (or with Kyle for that matter).

And this we will wait for a disgruntled superstar nonsense needs to end. A player of Kawhis caliber is almost never available.

Harden isn’t even on Kawhis level. And even if we got him, the team post trade is going to be gutted unlike the Demar trade which was pennies on the dollar because of Kawhi potentially not showing up and the huge injury concerns.

That would be different if your core was old and was not getting better. We are in the perfect position where our best players are still getting better. We have no bad contracts, have all of our picks and are continuing to get better.

This isn’t a wizards, pacers and pistons situation.

We are continuing to get better? We don’t have a superstar level talent.

We are limited in our ceiling and that’s the point.

Demar kept getting better too remember.

I like all our guys but they are just 2-4 pieces at best.

I don’t think Pascal is a great contract. Fred is okay.

OG will be signed and we will be capped out with a young core that has no top 20-25 player.

The best player on this team is 34 years old. There isn't any reason to believe anyone on this roster would ever be as good as prime Lowry who himself was not good enough to be a #1 option. People have this idea that because you have a handful of great players who have been highly productive well into their 30s that suddenly it's the new normal.

[Steelo Green]

That would be different if your core was old and was not getting better. We are in the perfect position where our best players are still getting better. We have no bad contracts, have all of our picks and are continuing to get better.

This isn’t a wizards, pacers and pistons situation.

We are continuing to get better? We don’t have a superstar level talent.

We are limited in our ceiling and that’s the point.

Demar kept getting better too remember.

I like all our guys but they are just 2-4 pieces at best.

I don’t think Pascal is a great contract. Fred is okay.

OG will be signed and we will be capped out with a young core that has no top 20-25 player.

The best player on this team is 34 years old. There isn't any reason to believe anyone on this roster would ever be as good as prime Lowry who himself was not good enough to be a #1 option. People have this idea that because you have a handful of great players who have been highly productive well into their 30s that suddenly it's the new normal.

But a 12-2 sample size of our record without Kyle is definitely indicative of how well we will do over a full 82 game season?

Fred, Pascal and OG. Do people really get excited about these guys?

[Son Goku 25]

One thing I hope we change is having 2 PG in starting lineup. We need long athletic players all throughout or 4 out of 5 positions considering how the NBA is structured now and what works (unless you're elite in all 5 positions).

I'm looking at FVV, Lowry isn't done yet and I dont trust FVv to run our team i think ive seen enough to know he's good enough to look for his own shot but is too small to make drastic changes. I'm honestly fed up of seeing our guys get out rebounded. Watching Malachi gives me hope that he can take on that starting PG position down the line and FVV is our 6th man if we keep him.

I'm certain Masai and Bobby know this but need to increase his value before putting him in a package.

[Son Goku 25]

We are continuing to get better? We don’t have a superstar level talent.

We are limited in our ceiling and that’s the point.

Demar kept getting better too remember.

I like all our guys but they are just 2-4 pieces at best.

I don’t think Pascal is a great contract. Fred is okay.

OG will be signed and we will be capped out with a young core that has no top 20-25 player.

The best player on this team is 34 years old. There isn't any reason to believe anyone on this roster would ever be as good as prime Lowry who himself was not good enough to be a #1 option. People have this idea that because you have a handful of great players who have been highly productive well into their 30s that suddenly it's the new normal.

But a 12-2 sample size of our record without Kyle is definitely indicative of how well we will do over a full 82 game season?

Fred, Pascal and OG. Do people really get excited about these guys?

Nope, they are great role players and Siakam is a great 2nd or third piece with an elite superstar. Again, I feel like our 2019 was underrated, Kawhi did lots of heavy lifting but we had a full team without any major weakness really.

I dont think players like Kawhi grow on trees so assuming Siakam stays well need 2 players better than him at a different position to really contend.

Watching them right now doesn't sit well with me. It reminds me of the time when our bench mob came and helped our starters because they lacked firepower. Well jusy have to stay top 4 and hope to make a splash at the right time.

[Mikistan]

I don’t understand how people have forgotten the Bosh years or Demar years.

Winning 50 games and getting kicked out round two is not a contender.

A contender requires a superstar player. We got one for a year, won a title and now he’s gone. I thought after Kawhi people wouldn’t support a mediocre core but here we are.

“But Demar and Kyle win 50 games!”

Winning in the playoffs is where it matters and no one can truly be excited of title aspirations post Kyle (or with Kyle for that matter).

And this we will wait for a disgruntled superstar nonsense needs to end. A player of Kawhis caliber is almost never available.

Harden isn’t even on Kawhis level. And even if we got him, the team post trade is going to be gutted unlike the Demar trade which was pennies on the dollar because of Kawhi potentially not showing up and the huge injury concerns.

You still dont understand that the DD era brought us a championship. The team since 2013 built a very good core and they developed tradable assets that put the franchise in a position to trade for a disgruntled star. If they were tanking instead, like many people like you were suggesting at the time, the Raps would've never won a title.

The Raps are in a very similar position again.

Really? This again?

It didn’t. We lucked in on a one in a million trade.

Again Kawhi level players are literally never available. And even if they were, you would have to gut the team, not pennies on the dollar to get one.

Stop acting like the Kawhi trade is a common theme in the NBA. It’s not. You said stars are always traded - false. True superstars are almost never traded and if they are it’s usually an AD situation.

No trade for a Kawhi is happening. You’re hoping for a pipe dream. Masai lucked into it just like he ran with a mediocre group. Don’t ignore the years of laughing stock because of a one in a million trade.

What very good core? Demar and Kyle were a mediocre (but better than what we are about to have) core.

We’re in the same position as before but this time it’s more likely than not we don’t land a rare of all rare trades (a former finals MVP traded at the time in their prime happened twice, three times if you include Shaq).

I don't know if I agree with the Demar/Kyle core being better... You have to remember how not strong the East was for a while we routinely got top in the East and were paper tigers in the in playoffs. A big part of that was demar as both an inefficient chucker and a negative defensively

Siakam contract will be just as tradeable as demar contract and that's all you need for a max contract long term on your books

FVV I'm not fully sold on, but he's had big moments on the biggest stage already and there is no reason to not believe he can't develop like Lowry did if he gets to play the 1 position without Lowry over 3-5 years of playoff minutes like Lowry got to.

OG is the best 3 we have drafted in maybe decades and will have value as long as he isn't signed for over 24 mil

[brownbobcat]

Really? This again?

It didn’t. We lucked in on a one in a million trade.

Again Kawhi level players are literally never available. And even if they were, you would have to gut the team, not pennies on the dollar to get one.

Stop acting like the Kawhi trade is a common theme in the NBA. It’s not. You said stars are always traded - false. True superstars are almost never traded and if they are it’s usually an AD situation.

Winning is hard and requires a lot of luck, full stop. But in the past 10 years, I count 4-7 superstars (depending on your standards) being traded - Kawhi, Paul, AD, Harden, Howard, Westbrook and Cousins. 2/7 of those won rings with the teams they were traded to.

Expand the list to include guys never traded as superstars (LeBron, Durant, Giannis, Curry, Doncic, Wade), and only 2/13 won championships as superstars with the team that drafted them (LeBron excluded here since he only won a ring with the Cavs when he decided to come back as a FA).

So what's my point? They're crap odds either way if your team isn't in LA. There's a time to blow it up, and it's not now when 50 wins is still within reach.

[Steelo Green]

Really? This again?

It didn’t. We lucked in on a one in a million trade.

Again Kawhi level players are literally never available. And even if they were, you would have to gut the team, not pennies on the dollar to get one.

Stop acting like the Kawhi trade is a common theme in the NBA. It’s not. You said stars are always traded - false. True superstars are almost never traded and if they are it’s usually an AD situation.

Winning is hard and requires a lot of luck, full stop. But in the past 10 years, I count 4-7 superstars (depending on your standards) being traded - Kawhi, Paul, AD, Harden, Howard, Westbrook and Cousins. 2/7 of those won rings with the teams they were traded to.

Expand the list to include guys never traded as superstars (LeBron, Durant, Giannis, Curry, Doncic, Wade), and only 2/13 won championships as superstars with the team that drafted them (LeBron excluded here since he only won a ring with the Cavs when he decided to come back as a FA).

So what's my point? They're crap odds either way if your team isn't in LA. There's a time to blow it up, and it's not now when 50 wins is still within reach.

Harden wasn’t a superstar when he was traded.

I said how many at the time they were traded, in their prime, cream of the crop players were traded and didn’t dictate the outcome of their trade.

How many FINALS MVPs which I’ve said numerous times, at the time of the trade, in their primes, have been traded.

If the Raptors acquired any of the above players at the time of the trade, we don’t win a title. Not one of the players on that list has a title except AD who willed his way to LA. Again - we are not LA.

Demarcus was traded for Hield - please. He was not a superstar. WB I’m not even going to get into.

That leaves CP3 and Dwight whom I will say CP3, yes, he was right up there and traded, but again has yet to win one, and to get him required the kitchen sink, and Dwight had a weird fallout but he was still at the time very good. Maybe - just maybe if we landed prime CP3 last year we win a title, but that’s the only guy on the list. Do you really think acquiring any of the above guys at the time of the trade would have made us a true contender?

Even if you include them (none of them were finals MVPs at the time of the trade) that’s how many guys? I’m not including Demarcus, WB, Harden, because that makes little sense.

It’s a rarity to acquire a superstar. It’s an even bigger rarity to trade for one.

The only sure fire way for a team like ours that only has one title which was on the backs of Kawhi (forget about the finals, Philly we lose if he doesn’t single handedly carry us in one of the greatest series of all time by one player) is to draft them or trade for young players who have that potential (ala Harden but again that was a rarity).

We’ve seen numerous mediocre teams with Demar and Kyle and this is going down the same path.

There will never be a player as good as Kawhi available via trade. The tier Kawhi is in is another tier. He is in a rare group of players who have 2 finals MVPs and don’t be shocked if he has more.

[brownbobcat]

Harden wasn’t a superstar when he was traded.

I said how many at the time they were traded, in their prime, cream of the crop players were traded and didn’t dictate the outcome of their trade.

How many FINALS MVPs which I’ve said numerous times, at the time of the trade, in their primes, have been traded.

The list of fully healthy, not angry with their team, in-their-prime superstars getting traded here happens to be exactly the same number of those signing here - zilch. So, they'll have to roll the dice on guys with question marks - which is exactly what Kawhi was. Don't forget there were huge doubts about whether he'd show up or even be elite anymore after basically missing a full season. Whether trade or draft, we're talking about something with a probability of 1% vs 2%. So again, what is your alternative solution - gut the team repeatedly for years until we luck out, then have to miraculously find a 2nd star and assemble a strong supporting cast in short order? They'd have to wait 3-4 years before that guy hits superstar level and then, what, a 3 year window before he demands a trade to LA?

What if they draft the 2nd star first and he makes them too good to get a great pick, do they have to trade him away then?

We’ve seen numerous mediocre teams with Demar and Kyle and this is going down the same path.

If you thought those were mediocre teams without any redeeming value, I don't know how you made it through the first 20 years of the franchise.

[casual_raps_fan]

What's your solution?

[Steelo Green]

Harden wasn’t a superstar when he was traded.

I said how many at the time they were traded, in their prime, cream of the crop players were traded and didn’t dictate the outcome of their trade.

How many FINALS MVPs which I’ve said numerous times, at the time of the trade, in their primes, have been traded.

The list of fully healthy, not angry with their team, in-their-prime superstars getting traded here happens to be exactly the same number of those signing here - zilch. So, they'll have to roll the dice on guys with question marks - which is exactly what Kawhi was. Don't forget there were huge doubts about whether he'd show up or even be elite anymore after basically missing a full season. Whether trade or draft, we're talking about something with a probability of 1% vs 2%. So again, what is your alternative solution - gut the team repeatedly for years until we luck out, then have to miraculously find a 2nd star and assemble a strong supporting cast in short order? They'd have to wait 3-4 years before that guy hits superstar level and then, what, a 3 year window before he demands a trade to LA?

What if they draft the 2nd star first and he makes them too good to get a great pick, do they have to trade him away then?

We’ve seen numerous mediocre teams with Demar and Kyle and this is going down the same path.

If you thought those were mediocre teams without any redeeming value, I don't know how you made it through the first 20 years of the franchise.

There wasn’t no. Everyone said it back then here but after the title have this afterglow that makes them ignore all the playoff embarrassments.

Lebronto?

Winning a title is definitely hard - but I would be happy with a true contender that has a long term superstar.

We have yet to build a true sustained contender. All those years of second round or first round exits have people excited. When Bosh got us a first round exit with 47 wins, what did it matter? It had no chance to win a title.

We’ve had only one chance in 25 years to win a title and that was with Kawhi.

The only chance any team has to do that is to have a superstar.

Dirk won one ring but his team was always a true contender.

Are people really saying they’re content with just the playoffs or do people want to win it all? What’s the aspirations.

If you’re happy with playoff exits - then that’s fine. That’s your choice.

I want to have a squad when the year begins we can say yeah I think we can win it all.

Before you mention all these franchises who have been floundering in the lottery - if they didn’t pick so poorly and drafted easy stars they would be in different positions.

We have the scouting to find those stars.

[Steelo Green]

What's your solution?

Go the OKC route.

Get into the lottery and let Tolzman find the gems.

[mdenny]

A max slot that no superstar will want to fill because, you know, Canada.



The OP is right

You're right. What's the use? Lol

What alternative do you suggest? NOT managing our cap space? Lol

no its fine but what exactly are you gunna use it on? overpay role players? what superstar can we get with that capsapce lol. Unless og or pascal take a massive leap, we arent winning anything anytime soon. crazy ppl still think a team without a superstar can win

we wont fade into fodders just yet but ppl expect us to challenge a better bucks team? the celtics/sixers/heat/nets? with len and baynes lmao. If we can get harden then yea no rebuild needed.

without a superstar, this team ceiling is the ecf and that will be extremtly tough.

Well for one.....it allows us to trade for a player who has a longterm max contract too.

Cap space is always an asset. Even if it's not used to sign someone. The only pertinent question would be: is our max slot cap space worth losing Ibaka and gasol? To which the answer is yes.

We have more options in attaining a superstar with that cap space than without.

[casual_raps_fan]

What's your solution?

Go the OKC route.

Get into the lottery and let Tolzman find the gems.

I don't see MLSE wanting that for obvious reasons but I wouldn't be against it. The Raptors are elite at both drafting and player development. The Thunder strategy would cater towards the Raptors strengths.

[OakleyDokely]

What's your solution?

Go the OKC route.

Get into the lottery and let Tolzman find the gems.

OKC hasn't been in the lottery since 2015.

[Johnny Bball]

Trade away all talent and tank. What an incredible solution.

Thirteen pages and alway the same thing.

[Alodar]

What's your solution?

Go the OKC route.

Get into the lottery and let Tolzman find the gems.

And how many Championships did OKC win going the OKC route?