The truth about FVV

[WaltFrazier]

I have my criticisms of Fred but he is our PG for the foreseeable future. My question is after last night, should Dragic be his backup going forward? A pro, a vet, came in and performed after all those DNP's. A bit more of a playmaker than Fred, still can shoot the 3 and make those lefty drives.

Play Fred just a little but less to keep him fresh, and use Goran as a pure backup PG, never together with Fred. Play Goran with athletes and size like Banton, Yuta soon, others, and you have a nice rotation. Maybe up his trade value too.

I fear Nurse will go right back to playing Fred and DNPing Dragic again, which would be illogical imo.

[pingpongrac]

I am a massive fan of Lowry. He is the GROAT and I can't wait to see his jersey retired. However, people have been overrating his impact the past couple of years and completely underrating the impact of FVV. The Raptors were 12-14 without Lowry last year. Their record was much worse when they were without FVV. Two years ago the Raptors were 12-2 without Lowry.

To piggy-back off of this, we have played 39 games without Lowry that FVV has suited up for since 19/20 (which includes 5 games near the end of last year where we were tanking). FVV is putting up 19 PPG (42/40/85), 4.2 REB, 7.1 AST, 2.5 TOV to help lead us to a 25-14 record in those games.



Sent from my Pixel 4 using RealGM mobile app

[johanliebert]

https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-raptors-show-with-will-lou/id1588453456?i=1000541278760

https://open.spotify.com/episode/0EvmO6JIjAynbyne9gnyz3?si=4zNUX3flSIu20cOr79ij2Q

Will Lou interview with Fred that I think a lot of folks have already heard with lots of great stuff.

- hard work in off season trying to get better to constantly grow and prepare for expected bigger role on the team
- recognizes many things still to improve
- Nick giving freedom to take midrange shot with bigger role
- midrange is discouraged by coaching staff/scheme for bench/role players
- has put a lot of hours into working on midrange
- ability to be aggressive on D comes from understanding schemes which GTJ is getting
- he has the trust of coaches because he buys in and tries to execute what the coaches are trying to do

I remember Derozan saying he was limited to 5 mid range shots per game by the coaching staff. It seems OG also gets some leeway with that shot.

[pingpongrac]

All of the starters that have played most games (OG, Scottie, Trent, Achiuwa) are basically net neutral on court and we are slightly negative with them off court. FVV and Siakam (with numbers of the last 6 games and a limited sample size) are the only players which seemingly affect our numbers as a team when they are off the floor. Most of the bench (aside from Birch) has had a negative impact on court and we have been better with them off court.

Achiuwa: 104.7 ORTG and 104.8 DRTG (-0.1) / 110.3 ORTG and 110.6 DRTG (-0.3)

Anunoby: 110.4 ORTG and 109.6 DRTG (+0.8) / 102.7 ORTG and 104.1 DRTG (-1.4)

Banton: 106.0 ORTG and 109.6 DRTG (-3.6) / 108.8 ORTG and 108.2 DRTF (+0.6)

Barnes: 108.0 ORTG and 108.0 DRTG (+0.0) / 105.5 ORTG and 105.9 DRTG (-0.4)

Birch: 111.5 ORTG and 108.8 DRTG (+2.7) / 105.1 ORTG and 108.0 DRTG (-2.9)

Boucher: 99.1 ORTG and 101.6 DRTG (-2.5) / 111.4 ORTG and 110.0 (+0.4)

Mykhailiuk: 102.4 ORTG and 111.0 DRTG (-8.6) / 111.1 ORTG and 107.6 DRTG (+3.5)

Siakam: 114.9 ORTG and 118.2 DRTG (-3.3) / 104.1 ORTG and 117.9 DRTG (-13.8)

Trent: 110.8 ORTG and 110.7 DRTG (+0.1) / 100.9 ORTG and 102.5 DRTG (-1.6)

VanVleet: 107.9 ORTG and 105.4 DRTG (+2.5) / 106.7 ORTG and 117.9 DRTG (-11.2)

I think it's time people start acknowledging how badly we need FVV to win games. His impact has been that of a borderline star the last 2 seasons now.

[ItsDanger]

The truth is Fred is not a true PG. Unless we get a versatile half court scorer, this offense will struggle.

[Rapsfan07]

FVV certainly has bumped up his assist numbers this year, but that doesn't equate better playmaking / creating for others. He collects quite a number of Calderon/Rondo type assists.

FVV's shooting and defense is undeniably impactful for winning basketball, but do we want him as the main playmaker / ball handler when we compete in the playoffs? I feel he is a floor-raiser and not a ceiling raiser as the playmaker / ball handler (but he is more valuable as off-ball shooting guard).

FVV is certain to decline his 23M player option in 2023/2024, which means he only has 1 more season past this one at his current 21M AAV. Considering he is getting 39mins a game so far, and collecting all-star level numbers, he will be asking for 25M+ for his age 29 to 32 years. Do we want to extend him that? I'm leaning towards no, and we should trade him in a consolidation trade like we did DD for Kawhi

Been saying this for a long time as well. As we all know, dealing a player while they're on the last year of their deal drastically reduces the amount that teams are willing to offer in a trade. I think we have to deal him this summer at the absolute latest if we want to get top dollar but preferably, as soon a good deal becomes available.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

All of the starters that have played most games (OG, Scottie, Trent, Achiuwa) are basically net neutral on court and we are slightly negative with them off court. FVV and Siakam (with numbers of the last 6 games and a limited sample size) are the only players which seemingly affect our numbers as a team when they are off the floor. Most of the bench (aside from Birch) has had a negative impact on court and we have been better with them off court.

Achiuwa: 104.7 ORTG and 104.8 DRTG (-0.1) / 110.3 ORTG and 110.6 DRTG (-0.3)

Anunoby: 110.4 ORTG and 109.6 DRTG (+0.8) / 102.7 ORTG and 104.1 DRTG (-1.4)

Banton: 106.0 ORTG and 109.6 DRTG (-3.6) / 108.8 ORTG and 108.2 DRTF (+0.6)

Barnes: 108.0 ORTG and 108.0 DRTG (+0.0) / 105.5 ORTG and 105.9 DRTG (-0.4)

Birch: 111.5 ORTG and 108.8 DRTG (+2.7) / 105.1 ORTG and 108.0 DRTG (-2.9)

Boucher: 99.1 ORTG and 101.6 DRTG (-2.5) / 111.4 ORTG and 110.0 (+0.4)

Mykhailiuk: 102.4 ORTG and 111.0 DRTG (-8.6) / 111.1 ORTG and 107.6 DRTG (+3.5)

Siakam: 114.9 ORTG and 118.2 DRTG (-3.3) / 104.1 ORTG and 117.9 DRTG (-13.8)

Trent: 110.8 ORTG and 110.7 DRTG (+0.1) / 100.9 ORTG and 102.5 DRTG (-1.6)

VanVleet: 107.9 ORTG and 105.4 DRTG (+2.5) / 106.7 ORTG and 117.9 DRTG (-11.2)

I think it's time people start acknowledging how badly we need FVV to win games. His impact has been that of a borderline star the last 2 seasons now.

I think its moot point. the rest of the team isn't good enough. he's league leader in minutes. doesn't matter if we need or don't really care about FVV.

[pingpongrac]

All of the starters that have played most games (OG, Scottie, Trent, Achiuwa) are basically net neutral on court and we are slightly negative with them off court. FVV and Siakam (with numbers of the last 6 games and a limited sample size) are the only players which seemingly affect our numbers as a team when they are off the floor. Most of the bench (aside from Birch) has had a negative impact on court and we have been better with them off court.

Achiuwa: 104.7 ORTG and 104.8 DRTG (-0.1) / 110.3 ORTG and 110.6 DRTG (-0.3)

Anunoby: 110.4 ORTG and 109.6 DRTG (+0.8) / 102.7 ORTG and 104.1 DRTG (-1.4)

Banton: 106.0 ORTG and 109.6 DRTG (-3.6) / 108.8 ORTG and 108.2 DRTF (+0.6)

Barnes: 108.0 ORTG and 108.0 DRTG (+0.0) / 105.5 ORTG and 105.9 DRTG (-0.4)

Birch: 111.5 ORTG and 108.8 DRTG (+2.7) / 105.1 ORTG and 108.0 DRTG (-2.9)

Boucher: 99.1 ORTG and 101.6 DRTG (-2.5) / 111.4 ORTG and 110.0 (+0.4)

Mykhailiuk: 102.4 ORTG and 111.0 DRTG (-8.6) / 111.1 ORTG and 107.6 DRTG (+3.5)

Siakam: 114.9 ORTG and 118.2 DRTG (-3.3) / 104.1 ORTG and 117.9 DRTG (-13.8)

Trent: 110.8 ORTG and 110.7 DRTG (+0.1) / 100.9 ORTG and 102.5 DRTG (-1.6)

VanVleet: 107.9 ORTG and 105.4 DRTG (+2.5) / 106.7 ORTG and 117.9 DRTG (-11.2)

I think it's time people start acknowledging how badly we need FVV to win games. His impact has been that of a borderline star the last 2 seasons now.

I think its moot point. the rest of the team isn't good enough. he's league leader in minutes. doesn't matter if we need or don't really care about FVV.

Right now the team isn't good enough, but why is everyone so quick to throw in the towel on vets like Siakam and FVV when they will still be extremely valuable pieces to us in a year or two when our youth begins to take the next step? Is the plan to trade away all of our vets and hope we become the first team in decades to win without any experience and/or vets? If that's the goal, this is going to be a 3-4 year rebuild (at best) and we're almost certainly going to be screwed when OG/Scottie are both hitting FA looking for what will likely be near-max contracts for both of them. Why would either of them want to come back when they've been stuck playing for a 25-win team for 3 years straight?

[agkagk]

I have my criticisms of Fred but he is our PG for the foreseeable future. My question is after last night, should Dragic be his backup going forward? A pro, a vet, came in and performed after all those DNP's. A bit more of a playmaker than Fred, still can shoot the 3 and make those lefty drives.

Play Fred just a little but less to keep him fresh, and use Goran as a pure backup PG, never together with Fred. Play Goran with athletes and size like Banton, Yuta soon, others, and you have a nice rotation. Maybe up his trade value too.

I fear Nurse will go right back to playing Fred and DNPing Dragic again, which would be illogical imo.

dragic looks like hes playing for a buyout.

aka hes making sure hes not trade fodder and can pick his next team.

that or hes washed.

[agkagk]

All of the starters that have played most games (OG, Scottie, Trent, Achiuwa) are basically net neutral on court and we are slightly negative with them off court. FVV and Siakam (with numbers of the last 6 games and a limited sample size) are the only players which seemingly affect our numbers as a team when they are off the floor. Most of the bench (aside from Birch) has had a negative impact on court and we have been better with them off court.

Achiuwa: 104.7 ORTG and 104.8 DRTG (-0.1) / 110.3 ORTG and 110.6 DRTG (-0.3)

Anunoby: 110.4 ORTG and 109.6 DRTG (+0.8) / 102.7 ORTG and 104.1 DRTG (-1.4)

Banton: 106.0 ORTG and 109.6 DRTG (-3.6) / 108.8 ORTG and 108.2 DRTF (+0.6)

Barnes: 108.0 ORTG and 108.0 DRTG (+0.0) / 105.5 ORTG and 105.9 DRTG (-0.4)

Birch: 111.5 ORTG and 108.8 DRTG (+2.7) / 105.1 ORTG and 108.0 DRTG (-2.9)

Boucher: 99.1 ORTG and 101.6 DRTG (-2.5) / 111.4 ORTG and 110.0 (+0.4)

Mykhailiuk: 102.4 ORTG and 111.0 DRTG (-8.6) / 111.1 ORTG and 107.6 DRTG (+3.5)

Siakam: 114.9 ORTG and 118.2 DRTG (-3.3) / 104.1 ORTG and 117.9 DRTG (-13.8)

Trent: 110.8 ORTG and 110.7 DRTG (+0.1) / 100.9 ORTG and 102.5 DRTG (-1.6)

VanVleet: 107.9 ORTG and 105.4 DRTG (+2.5) / 106.7 ORTG and 117.9 DRTG (-11.2)

I think it's time people start acknowledging how badly we need FVV to win games. His impact has been that of a borderline star the last 2 seasons now.

I think its moot point. the rest of the team isn't good enough. he's league leader in minutes. doesn't matter if we need or don't really care about FVV.

unless we get a godfather offer, his best value is suited to being our veteran leader that helps shepherd our next generation.

its next to impossible to develop young talent without the right mix of vets. fred fits the bill to a t.

see sac, orl, minnesota etc for the alternative.

76'ers are a one off that had multiple top 3 picks.

denver, utah, pacers, miami and the raptor have one thing in common, they dont tank and they constantly produce talent.

god father offer or bust.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

All of the starters that have played most games (OG, Scottie, Trent, Achiuwa) are basically net neutral on court and we are slightly negative with them off court. FVV and Siakam (with numbers of the last 6 games and a limited sample size) are the only players which seemingly affect our numbers as a team when they are off the floor. Most of the bench (aside from Birch) has had a negative impact on court and we have been better with them off court.

Achiuwa: 104.7 ORTG and 104.8 DRTG (-0.1) / 110.3 ORTG and 110.6 DRTG (-0.3)

Anunoby: 110.4 ORTG and 109.6 DRTG (+0.8) / 102.7 ORTG and 104.1 DRTG (-1.4)

Banton: 106.0 ORTG and 109.6 DRTG (-3.6) / 108.8 ORTG and 108.2 DRTF (+0.6)

Barnes: 108.0 ORTG and 108.0 DRTG (+0.0) / 105.5 ORTG and 105.9 DRTG (-0.4)

Birch: 111.5 ORTG and 108.8 DRTG (+2.7) / 105.1 ORTG and 108.0 DRTG (-2.9)

Boucher: 99.1 ORTG and 101.6 DRTG (-2.5) / 111.4 ORTG and 110.0 (+0.4)

Mykhailiuk: 102.4 ORTG and 111.0 DRTG (-8.6) / 111.1 ORTG and 107.6 DRTG (+3.5)

Siakam: 114.9 ORTG and 118.2 DRTG (-3.3) / 104.1 ORTG and 117.9 DRTG (-13.8)

Trent: 110.8 ORTG and 110.7 DRTG (+0.1) / 100.9 ORTG and 102.5 DRTG (-1.6)

VanVleet: 107.9 ORTG and 105.4 DRTG (+2.5) / 106.7 ORTG and 117.9 DRTG (-11.2)

I think it's time people start acknowledging how badly we need FVV to win games. His impact has been that of a borderline star the last 2 seasons now.

I think its moot point. the rest of the team isn't good enough. he's league leader in minutes. doesn't matter if we need or don't really care about FVV.

unless we get a godfather offer, his best value is suited to being our veteran leader that helps shepherd our next generation.

its next to impossible to develop young talent without the right mix of vets. fred fits the bill to a t.

see sac, orl, minnesota etc for the alternative.

76'ers are a one off that had multiple top 3 picks.

denver, utah, pacers, miami and the raptor have one thing in common, they dont tank and they constantly produce talent.

god father offer or bust.

ya I have to agree with you here but I would deem anyone is susceptible to being traded at this moment and time. FVV is going to live out his best days as the point guard of a mediocre team (currently right now) and some championship team, down the road, is going to come pick him up and put him on their bench and he's going to help them win them a championship. thats just going to be the reality of it.

this team is like 2-3 years away from being good aka when Barnes matures and becomes that go-to superstar, if he pans out, and when FVV is at the end of his contract in 2 years in his player option - which he will ultimately opt out of and try to get his max contract, if he plays his card right, as a Raptor.

[agkagk]

I think its moot point. the rest of the team isn't good enough. he's league leader in minutes. doesn't matter if we need or don't really care about FVV.

unless we get a godfather offer, his best value is suited to being our veteran leader that helps shepherd our next generation.

its next to impossible to develop young talent without the right mix of vets. fred fits the bill to a t.

see sac, orl, minnesota etc for the alternative.

76'ers are a one off that had multiple top 3 picks.

denver, utah, pacers, miami and the raptor have one thing in common, they dont tank and they constantly produce talent.

god father offer or bust.

ya I have to agree with you here but I would deem anyone is susceptible to being traded at this moment and time. FVV is going to live out his best days as the point guard of a mediocre team (currently right now) and some championship team, down the road, is going to come pick him up and put him on their bench and he's going to help them win them a championship. thats just going to be the reality of it.

this team is like 2-3 years away from being good aka when Barnes matures and becomes that go-to superstar, if he pans out, and when FVV is at the end of his contract in 2 years in his player option - which he will ultimately opt out of and try to get his max contract, if he plays his card right, as a Raptor.

When that time comes, let him get his bag and thank him.

Much like Lowry the past two years with Lowry, Fred’s intrinsic value to the rest of the team outweighs maxing out trading him unless it’s for said god father package.