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Shams: Bobby Promoted to "Final Decision Maker of Basketball (still GM) " update pg. 27

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Re: Grange: Bobby wants President’s Job 

Post#241 » by Westside Gunn » Mon Jul 14, 2025 10:27 pm

WuTang_OG wrote:This player agent thing is stupid imo.

The goal is to find the right person who is a team builder, has experience in the front office on how to build teams and someone who understands our market / knows that drafting and developing is the core of our organization - something that masai put in a long time ago and has executed on it many times. Bobby has lived through this since day 1. No one better qualified unless sam presti is walking through which he isnt.

If that putz pelley doesnt elevate bobby and puts someone who isnt qualified and just a name, then this front office will be dismantled. Bobby will leave as he should or this person will choose his own people. Either scenario is likely

Just elevate bobby. I emailed keith in support. If u guys want his email dm me.


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Re: Grange: Bobby wants President’s Job 

Post#242 » by WuTang_CMB » Mon Jul 14, 2025 10:35 pm

Dalek wrote:
WuTang_OG wrote:This player agent thing is stupid imo.

The goal is to find the right person who is a team builder, has experience in the front office on how to build teams and someone who understands our market / knows that drafting and developing is the core of our organization - something that masai put in a long time ago and has executed on it many times. Bobby has lived through this since day 1. No one better qualified unless sam presti is walking through which he isnt.

If that putz pelley doesnt elevate bobby and puts someone who isnt qualified and just a name, then this front office will be dismantled. Bobby will leave as he should or this person will choose his own people. Either scenario is likely

Just elevate bobby. I emailed keith in support. If u guys want his email dm me.


I think this process should give some outside opinion on the franchise that is needed. Even if they don't hire a former agent, they can at least provide a perspective of how the organization is perceived. We gave full control to Masai and let him build the organization the way he wanted. It worked for several years, but as a team that is near the first apron, and hasn't had a winning season in two years, it is time to get some perspective.

Does this team build around Scottie Barnes? Does this core even make sense?


The team is trending upwards. If ownership doesnt like the way the rebuild is going then clean house. Not this mickey mouse crap in hiring a face for the sake of it. Screams dysfunctional peddie days. Raps front office know what they are doing and as i said this org. core is drafting and developing and we are back to that. They are also going all in on defensive versatility because thats the biggest marker for success in the playoffs. It carried OKC when the offense wasnt going.
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Re: Grange: Bobby wants President’s Job 

Post#243 » by djsunyc » Tue Jul 15, 2025 12:06 pm

i think my only issue is that a new president is going to be a yes man to rogers and won't make the tough choices to oppose them. but whatever... can't do anything about that.

just win baby!
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Re: Grange: Bobby wants President’s Job 

Post#244 » by Quattro » Tue Jul 15, 2025 3:29 pm

djsunyc wrote:i think my only issue is that a new president is going to be a yes man to rogers and won't make the tough choices to oppose them. but whatever... can't do anything about that.

just win baby!


We can always stop watching like i plan to do the second i catch wind that were headed back to the richard peddie/araujo days.

Sadly im pretty confident we are. Not elevating the people we have in place would be the first sign.
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Re: Grange: Bobby wants President’s Job 

Post#245 » by Dalek » Tue Jul 15, 2025 5:31 pm

WuTang_OG wrote:
Dalek wrote:
WuTang_OG wrote:This player agent thing is stupid imo.

The goal is to find the right person who is a team builder, has experience in the front office on how to build teams and someone who understands our market / knows that drafting and developing is the core of our organization - something that masai put in a long time ago and has executed on it many times. Bobby has lived through this since day 1. No one better qualified unless sam presti is walking through which he isnt.

If that putz pelley doesnt elevate bobby and puts someone who isnt qualified and just a name, then this front office will be dismantled. Bobby will leave as he should or this person will choose his own people. Either scenario is likely

Just elevate bobby. I emailed keith in support. If u guys want his email dm me.


I think this process should give some outside opinion on the franchise that is needed. Even if they don't hire a former agent, they can at least provide a perspective of how the organization is perceived. We gave full control to Masai and let him build the organization the way he wanted. It worked for several years, but as a team that is near the first apron, and hasn't had a winning season in two years, it is time to get some perspective.

Does this team build around Scottie Barnes? Does this core even make sense?


The team is trending upwards. If ownership doesnt like the way the rebuild is going then clean house. Not this mickey mouse crap in hiring a face for the sake of it. Screams dysfunctional peddie days. Raps front office know what they are doing and as i said this org. core is drafting and developing and we are back to that. They are also going all in on defensive versatility because thats the biggest marker for success in the playoffs. It carried OKC when the offense wasnt going.


I'd argue this is more of a retooling around Barnes. If you think Toronto's org. core is drafting and developing, why are we spending top dollar on non-proven/mostly injurred Brandon Ingram and bringing back Poeltl who is 30? Why are we spending $35m on a PG who cannot finish at the rim and is more of a pull-up shooter? Most the reasons don't point to some grand plan on development, but more about how to build around a flawed player in Barnes.

Barnes cannot be a primary scorer - let's trade for and sign Ingram
Barnes cannot play on the perimeter - let's surround him with shooters like Dick and IQ
Barnes is not really a post defender - let's lock in Poeltl
They even installed a coach who is so pro-Scottie that the guy swears he is going to be the face of the league

I would be all for acquiring draft assets, taking swings on developmental prospects and creating a defensive vision, but I am not clear this is the direction. I'd say the trade for Ingram was to propel Toronto hastily into the playoff picture in 2025-26 when we should at least be securing another lotto pick in a great draft class.

Moving off Masai is a good opportunity to get more input, maybe even make some real change to do what you are proposing.
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Re: Grange: Bobby wants President’s Job 

Post#246 » by WuTang_CMB » Tue Jul 15, 2025 5:46 pm

Dalek wrote:
WuTang_OG wrote:
Dalek wrote:
I think this process should give some outside opinion on the franchise that is needed. Even if they don't hire a former agent, they can at least provide a perspective of how the organization is perceived. We gave full control to Masai and let him build the organization the way he wanted. It worked for several years, but as a team that is near the first apron, and hasn't had a winning season in two years, it is time to get some perspective.

Does this team build around Scottie Barnes? Does this core even make sense?


The team is trending upwards. If ownership doesnt like the way the rebuild is going then clean house. Not this mickey mouse crap in hiring a face for the sake of it. Screams dysfunctional peddie days. Raps front office know what they are doing and as i said this org. core is drafting and developing and we are back to that. They are also going all in on defensive versatility because thats the biggest marker for success in the playoffs. It carried OKC when the offense wasnt going.


I'd argue this is more of a retooling around Barnes. If you think Toronto's org. core is drafting and developing, why are we spending top dollar on non-proven/mostly injurred Brandon Ingram and bringing back Poeltl who is 30? Why are we spending $35m on a PG who cannot finish at the rim and is more of a pull-up shooter? Most the reasons don't point to some grand plan on development, but more about how to build around a flawed player in Barnes.

Barnes cannot be a primary scorer - let's trade for and sign Ingram
Barnes cannot play on the perimeter - let's surround him with shooters like Dick and IQ
Barnes is not really a post defender - let's lock in Poeltl
They even installed a coach who is so pro-Scottie that the guy swears he is going to be the face of the league

I would be all for acquiring draft assets, taking swings on developmental prospects and creating a defensive vision, but I am not clear this is the direction. I'd say the trade for Ingram was to propel Toronto hastily into the playoff picture in 2025-26 when we should at least be securing another lotto pick in a great draft class.

Moving off Masai is a good opportunity to get more input, maybe even make some real change to do what you are proposing.


Because acquiring talent through trade is still a large part of this business, especially when the cost is attractive. Retaining Poeltl who is a top 15 centre is also good business because centre's are hard to come by and take a while to develop. I don't see your correlation between those moves and how this org. runs their operation with drafting and developing at the top of it.

A lot of the evaluation is going to come 12 months from now. We can see how Barnes and BI mesh, and how the young guys have all improved. That's just the reality of a rebuild or retool - but Toronto IMO is set up nicely with all their picks and so far, good young talent. Moving off of Masai was stupid and just a cheap move. Putting a non team builder to replace him would be a mistake. Again, the most viable option would be to promote Bobby for reasons I've already stated.
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Re: Grange: Bobby wants President’s Job 

Post#247 » by Dalek » Tue Jul 15, 2025 9:54 pm

WuTang_OG wrote:
Dalek wrote:
WuTang_OG wrote:
The team is trending upwards. If ownership doesnt like the way the rebuild is going then clean house. Not this mickey mouse crap in hiring a face for the sake of it. Screams dysfunctional peddie days. Raps front office know what they are doing and as i said this org. core is drafting and developing and we are back to that. They are also going all in on defensive versatility because thats the biggest marker for success in the playoffs. It carried OKC when the offense wasnt going.


I'd argue this is more of a retooling around Barnes. If you think Toronto's org. core is drafting and developing, why are we spending top dollar on non-proven/mostly injurred Brandon Ingram and bringing back Poeltl who is 30? Why are we spending $35m on a PG who cannot finish at the rim and is more of a pull-up shooter? Most the reasons don't point to some grand plan on development, but more about how to build around a flawed player in Barnes.

Barnes cannot be a primary scorer - let's trade for and sign Ingram
Barnes cannot play on the perimeter - let's surround him with shooters like Dick and IQ
Barnes is not really a post defender - let's lock in Poeltl
They even installed a coach who is so pro-Scottie that the guy swears he is going to be the face of the league

I would be all for acquiring draft assets, taking swings on developmental prospects and creating a defensive vision, but I am not clear this is the direction. I'd say the trade for Ingram was to propel Toronto hastily into the playoff picture in 2025-26 when we should at least be securing another lotto pick in a great draft class.

Moving off Masai is a good opportunity to get more input, maybe even make some real change to do what you are proposing.


Because acquiring talent through trade is still a large part of this business, especially when the cost is attractive. Retaining Poeltl who is a top 15 centre is also good business because centre's are hard to come by and take a while to develop. I don't see your correlation between those moves and how this org. runs their operation with drafting and developing at the top of it.

A lot of the evaluation is going to come 12 months from now. We can see how Barnes and IG mesh, and how the young guys have all improved. That's just the reality of a rebuild or retool - but Toronto IMO is set up nicely with all their picks and so far, good young talent. Moving off of Masai was stupid and just a cheap move. Putting a non team builder to replace him would be a mistake. Again, the most viable option would be to promote Bobby for reasons I've already stated.


Acquiring talent through trade is much better when you don't overpay. In every case of these big trades we have had to re-sign the player to significant deals that are at or above their market value.

We have seen in the past year players given away or cost teams future assets or flexibility (Damian Lillard stretch/waive costs Bucks $25m in dead cap, Zach Lavine brought no value back to Chicago and took years to dump, Portland waived DeAndre Ayton and they still have Jerami Grant eating up space?).

If those signings don't pay off what does Toronto do to get better? We are stuck for the next three years or more with starters we have zero track record with. We accepted way more risk than needed for a rebuilding team.

We have nothing to do but see where we are at in 12 months which is because of Ujiri greenlighting these deals.

You point out we are set-up so nicely with our picks, but I assume we are moderately better if not a play-off team, which means the future picks we own are worth less as they fall out of the lottery. This is why a lot of analysts are scratching their heads about Toronto aiming for 9th and not having any way to climb out of it other than organic growth.
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Re: Grange: Bobby wants President’s Job 

Post#248 » by WuTang_CMB » Tue Jul 15, 2025 10:21 pm

Dalek wrote:
WuTang_OG wrote:
Dalek wrote:
I'd argue this is more of a retooling around Barnes. If you think Toronto's org. core is drafting and developing, why are we spending top dollar on non-proven/mostly injurred Brandon Ingram and bringing back Poeltl who is 30? Why are we spending $35m on a PG who cannot finish at the rim and is more of a pull-up shooter? Most the reasons don't point to some grand plan on development, but more about how to build around a flawed player in Barnes.

Barnes cannot be a primary scorer - let's trade for and sign Ingram
Barnes cannot play on the perimeter - let's surround him with shooters like Dick and IQ
Barnes is not really a post defender - let's lock in Poeltl
They even installed a coach who is so pro-Scottie that the guy swears he is going to be the face of the league

I would be all for acquiring draft assets, taking swings on developmental prospects and creating a defensive vision, but I am not clear this is the direction. I'd say the trade for Ingram was to propel Toronto hastily into the playoff picture in 2025-26 when we should at least be securing another lotto pick in a great draft class.

Moving off Masai is a good opportunity to get more input, maybe even make some real change to do what you are proposing.


Because acquiring talent through trade is still a large part of this business, especially when the cost is attractive. Retaining Poeltl who is a top 15 centre is also good business because centre's are hard to come by and take a while to develop. I don't see your correlation between those moves and how this org. runs their operation with drafting and developing at the top of it.

A lot of the evaluation is going to come 12 months from now. We can see how Barnes and IG mesh, and how the young guys have all improved. That's just the reality of a rebuild or retool - but Toronto IMO is set up nicely with all their picks and so far, good young talent. Moving off of Masai was stupid and just a cheap move. Putting a non team builder to replace him would be a mistake. Again, the most viable option would be to promote Bobby for reasons I've already stated.


Acquiring talent through trade is much better when you don't overpay. In every case of these big trades we have had to re-sign the player to significant deals that are at or above their market value.

We have seen in the past year players given away or cost teams future assets or flexibility (Damian Lillard stretch/waive costs Bucks $25m in dead cap, Zach Lavine brought no value back to Chicago and took years to dump, Portland waived DeAndre Ayton and they still have Jerami Grant eating up space?).

If those signings don't pay off what does Toronto do to get better? We are stuck for the next three years or more with starters we have zero track record with. We accepted way more risk than needed for a rebuilding team.

We have nothing to do but see where we are at in 12 months which is because of Ujiri greenlighting these deals.

You point out we are set-up so nicely with our picks, but I assume we are moderately better if not a play-off team, which means the future picks we own are worth less as they fall out of the lottery. This is why a lot of analysts are scratching their heads about Toronto aiming for 9th and not having any way to climb out of it other than organic growth.


The cost was cheap for BI. They acquired him and bought low. The re-up deal is market value and on short term, the only risk there is the health. BI will elevate the team and that's why they did it. The next 12 months will determine where we are at. They are still rebuilding. This whole spending to the cap is bad narrative I dont agree with so I don't see what risk you are referring to. If you wanted to be like Washington and blow it up and take on bad contracts for picks, that's a different story, but those are long re-building processes. Just look at the mess Utah is in. With the way the East is laid out, Toronto should be in top 7. You keep building from there with drafting and developing and opportunistic with trades. That's what a rebuild/retool is - you have to keep getting better each season and it may not be fancy, but the growth of the players every year will elevate the team. We've already seen this recipe and they pulled it off. I wouldn't get so caught up on this is the team and that's it because there will be growth from all the kids we've drafted (just look at the guys who popped for us during Lowry era) and there will be trades along the way.
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Re: Grange: Bobby wants President’s Job 

Post#249 » by Tripod » Tue Jul 15, 2025 10:33 pm

WuTang_OG wrote:
Dalek wrote:
WuTang_OG wrote:
Because acquiring talent through trade is still a large part of this business, especially when the cost is attractive. Retaining Poeltl who is a top 15 centre is also good business because centre's are hard to come by and take a while to develop. I don't see your correlation between those moves and how this org. runs their operation with drafting and developing at the top of it.

A lot of the evaluation is going to come 12 months from now. We can see how Barnes and IG mesh, and how the young guys have all improved. That's just the reality of a rebuild or retool - but Toronto IMO is set up nicely with all their picks and so far, good young talent. Moving off of Masai was stupid and just a cheap move. Putting a non team builder to replace him would be a mistake. Again, the most viable option would be to promote Bobby for reasons I've already stated.


Acquiring talent through trade is much better when you don't overpay. In every case of these big trades we have had to re-sign the player to significant deals that are at or above their market value.

We have seen in the past year players given away or cost teams future assets or flexibility (Damian Lillard stretch/waive costs Bucks $25m in dead cap, Zach Lavine brought no value back to Chicago and took years to dump, Portland waived DeAndre Ayton and they still have Jerami Grant eating up space?).

If those signings don't pay off what does Toronto do to get better? We are stuck for the next three years or more with starters we have zero track record with. We accepted way more risk than needed for a rebuilding team.

We have nothing to do but see where we are at in 12 months which is because of Ujiri greenlighting these deals.

You point out we are set-up so nicely with our picks, but I assume we are moderately better if not a play-off team, which means the future picks we own are worth less as they fall out of the lottery. This is why a lot of analysts are scratching their heads about Toronto aiming for 9th and not having any way to climb out of it other than organic growth.


The cost was cheap for BI. They acquired him and bought low. The re-up deal is market value and on short term, the only risk there is the health. BI will elevate the team and that's why they did it. The next 12 months will determine where we are at. They are still rebuilding. This whole spending to the cap is bad narrative I dont agree with so I don't see what risk you are referring to. If you wanted to be like Washington and blow it up and take on bad contracts for picks, that's a different story, but those are long re-building processes. Just look at the mess Utah is in. With the way the East is laid out, Toronto should be in top 7. You keep building from there with drafting and developing and opportunistic with trades. That's what a rebuild/retool is. I wouldn't get so caught up on this is the team and that's it because there will be growth from all the kids we've drafted (just look at the guys who popped for us during Lowry era) and there will be trades.

It's as of people forget the Raps added 3 starters within the last year of winning a Championship.

You CAN always upgrade if you have young assets and picks. We have both.

As you said, this isn't the final form of the team hoping to win a Championship. This is a STEP toward that direction.
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Re: Grange: Bobby wants President’s Job 

Post#250 » by Dalek » Tue Jul 15, 2025 11:46 pm

WuTang_OG wrote:
Dalek wrote:
WuTang_OG wrote:
Because acquiring talent through trade is still a large part of this business, especially when the cost is attractive. Retaining Poeltl who is a top 15 centre is also good business because centre's are hard to come by and take a while to develop. I don't see your correlation between those moves and how this org. runs their operation with drafting and developing at the top of it.

A lot of the evaluation is going to come 12 months from now. We can see how Barnes and IG mesh, and how the young guys have all improved. That's just the reality of a rebuild or retool - but Toronto IMO is set up nicely with all their picks and so far, good young talent. Moving off of Masai was stupid and just a cheap move. Putting a non team builder to replace him would be a mistake. Again, the most viable option would be to promote Bobby for reasons I've already stated.


Acquiring talent through trade is much better when you don't overpay. In every case of these big trades we have had to re-sign the player to significant deals that are at or above their market value.

We have seen in the past year players given away or cost teams future assets or flexibility (Damian Lillard stretch/waive costs Bucks $25m in dead cap, Zach Lavine brought no value back to Chicago and took years to dump, Portland waived DeAndre Ayton and they still have Jerami Grant eating up space?).

If those signings don't pay off what does Toronto do to get better? We are stuck for the next three years or more with starters we have zero track record with. We accepted way more risk than needed for a rebuilding team.

We have nothing to do but see where we are at in 12 months which is because of Ujiri greenlighting these deals.

You point out we are set-up so nicely with our picks, but I assume we are moderately better if not a play-off team, which means the future picks we own are worth less as they fall out of the lottery. This is why a lot of analysts are scratching their heads about Toronto aiming for 9th and not having any way to climb out of it other than organic growth.


The cost was cheap for BI. They acquired him and bought low. The re-up deal is market value and on short term, the only risk there is the health. BI will elevate the team and that's why they did it. The next 12 months will determine where we are at. They are still rebuilding. This whole spending to the cap is bad narrative I dont agree with so I don't see what risk you are referring to. If you wanted to be like Washington and blow it up and take on bad contracts for picks, that's a different story, but those are long re-building processes. Just look at the mess Utah is in. With the way the East is laid out, Toronto should be in top 7. You keep building from there with drafting and developing and opportunistic with trades. That's what a rebuild/retool is - you have to keep getting better each season and it may not be fancy, but the growth of the players every year will elevate the team. We've already seen this recipe and they pulled it off. I wouldn't get so caught up on this is the team and that's it because there will be growth from all the kids we've drafted (just look at the guys who popped for us during Lowry era) and there will be trades along the way.


It really depends on preference. You can go the slow way and acquire bad contract for assets and do a 1-3 year turnaround. Houston made a relatively quick turnaround, while OKC took longer but look at how they control the draft and have a strong future? Toronto is going the middle rebuild like Indiana. It may work out in a weak East, but Indiana has a star player like Tyrese Haliburton and a great coach in Rick Carlisle.

I think the risk is we don't know because there is no track record with this core group. They have not played a game together and we have a great player development coach who has never coached a playoff game.

I know the recipe with what we did with Demar and Kyle and then later with Pascal and OG, but that team won a lot for years and couldn't get over the hump - they pivoted to Kawhi and Nick Nurse. This is a lotto team which is trying to make a huge one year leap like what Detroit did last season and it is not exactly like world thinks we are a scary team on the rise. Vegas has our win odds at 32.5 next season.
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Re: Grange: Bobby wants President’s Job 

Post#251 » by WuTang_CMB » Wed Jul 16, 2025 12:08 am

Dalek wrote:
WuTang_OG wrote:
Dalek wrote:
Acquiring talent through trade is much better when you don't overpay. In every case of these big trades we have had to re-sign the player to significant deals that are at or above their market value.

We have seen in the past year players given away or cost teams future assets or flexibility (Damian Lillard stretch/waive costs Bucks $25m in dead cap, Zach Lavine brought no value back to Chicago and took years to dump, Portland waived DeAndre Ayton and they still have Jerami Grant eating up space?).

If those signings don't pay off what does Toronto do to get better? We are stuck for the next three years or more with starters we have zero track record with. We accepted way more risk than needed for a rebuilding team.

We have nothing to do but see where we are at in 12 months which is because of Ujiri greenlighting these deals.

You point out we are set-up so nicely with our picks, but I assume we are moderately better if not a play-off team, which means the future picks we own are worth less as they fall out of the lottery. This is why a lot of analysts are scratching their heads about Toronto aiming for 9th and not having any way to climb out of it other than organic growth.


The cost was cheap for BI. They acquired him and bought low. The re-up deal is market value and on short term, the only risk there is the health. BI will elevate the team and that's why they did it. The next 12 months will determine where we are at. They are still rebuilding. This whole spending to the cap is bad narrative I dont agree with so I don't see what risk you are referring to. If you wanted to be like Washington and blow it up and take on bad contracts for picks, that's a different story, but those are long re-building processes. Just look at the mess Utah is in. With the way the East is laid out, Toronto should be in top 7. You keep building from there with drafting and developing and opportunistic with trades. That's what a rebuild/retool is - you have to keep getting better each season and it may not be fancy, but the growth of the players every year will elevate the team. We've already seen this recipe and they pulled it off. I wouldn't get so caught up on this is the team and that's it because there will be growth from all the kids we've drafted (just look at the guys who popped for us during Lowry era) and there will be trades along the way.


It really depends on preference. You can go the slow way and acquire bad contract for assets and do a 1-3 year turnaround. Houston made a relatively quick turnaround, while OKC took longer but look at how they control the draft and have a strong future? Toronto is going the middle rebuild like Indiana. It may work out in a weak East, but Indiana has a star player like Tyrese Haliburton and a great coach in Rick Carlisle.

I think the risk is we don't know because there is no track record with this core group. They have not played a game together and we have a great player development coach who has never coached a playoff game.

I know the recipe with what we did with Demar and Kyle and then later with Pascal and OG, but that team won a lot for years and couldn't get over the hump - they pivoted to Kawhi and Nick Nurse. This is a lotto team which is trying to make a huge one year leap like what Detroit did last season and it is not exactly like world thinks we are a scary team on the rise. Vegas has our win odds at 32.5 next season.


Long rebuilds are crap shoots. If you don't get lucky or draft well, you will stay at the bottom. Took Houston 4 years to get to .500 after winning 20 games for 3 straight seasons. Utah is a prime example of not drafting well and still being stuck. Detroit tanked for 5 years - what do they have to show for it? 1 star player. Seems light for 5 years of crap basketball, no? Their only avenue to get better is to keep drafting and developing - the same thing we are doing.

If you knew the recipe you wouldn't be questioning their process. It's the same design. Every core group has to start off. There is no track record because they are starting it out with Scottie, BI, IQ, Poeltl who haven't played one game with eachother which is why in 12 months we will have a better understanding of what this group is.

Again, you keep adding and building each season. This isn't the finished team. Like I said before, drafting and developing in the next few years along with key trades will get us into contention.
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Re: Grange: Bobby wants President’s Job 

Post#252 » by OAKLEY_2 » Wed Jul 16, 2025 4:52 am

Dalek wrote:
WuTang_OG wrote:
Dalek wrote:
I think this process should give some outside opinion on the franchise that is needed. Even if they don't hire a former agent, they can at least provide a perspective of how the organization is perceived. We gave full control to Masai and let him build the organization the way he wanted. It worked for several years, but as a team that is near the first apron, and hasn't had a winning season in two years, it is time to get some perspective.

Does this team build around Scottie Barnes? Does this core even make sense?


The team is trending upwards. If ownership doesnt like the way the rebuild is going then clean house. Not this mickey mouse crap in hiring a face for the sake of it. Screams dysfunctional peddie days. Raps front office know what they are doing and as i said this org. core is drafting and developing and we are back to that. They are also going all in on defensive versatility because thats the biggest marker for success in the playoffs. It carried OKC when the offense wasnt going.


I'd argue this is more of a retooling around Barnes. If you think Toronto's org. core is drafting and developing, why are we spending top dollar on non-proven/mostly injurred Brandon Ingram and bringing back Poeltl who is 30? Why are we spending $35m on a PG who cannot finish at the rim and is more of a pull-up shooter? Most the reasons don't point to some grand plan on development, but more about how to build around a flawed player in Barnes.

Barnes cannot be a primary scorer - let's trade for and sign Ingram
Barnes cannot play on the perimeter - let's surround him with shooters like Dick and IQ
Barnes is not really a post defender - let's lock in Poeltl
They even installed a coach who is so pro-Scottie that the guy swears he is going to be the face of the league

I would be all for acquiring draft assets, taking swings on developmental prospects and creating a defensive vision, but I am not clear this is the direction. I'd say the trade for Ingram was to propel Toronto hastily into the playoff picture in 2025-26 when we should at least be securing another lotto pick in a great draft class.

Moving off Masai is a good opportunity to get more input, maybe even make some real change to do what you are proposing.


OMG the "flawed player argument". What a way to dress up the glass half full Raptor cliches. Some of what is said here is true but leave Barnes out of the sulking as makes for a much weaker argument.
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Re: Grange: Bobby wants President’s Job 

Post#253 » by polo007 » Wed Jul 16, 2025 5:15 pm

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Re: Grange: Bobby wants President’s Job 

Post#254 » by WuTang_CMB » Wed Jul 16, 2025 5:15 pm

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e one thing he hasn’t done is own the spotlight. Humble and unassuming by nature, Webster has always seemed comfortable operating in Ujiri’s shadow, but that doesn’t mean that he’s incapable or unwilling to step out of it. At his press conference late last month, MLSE CEO Keith Pelley indicated that Webster would be considered for the vacant president position, and by all accounts, the 41-year-old is very interested.

But to say that it’s his job to lose may be a stretch. Pelley seemed to give off the impression that their preference was to bring in somebody new and keep Webster in the GM role for the time being, and that’s the sense that league insiders have gotten, as well.
The search for the next Raptors president is officially underway. MLSE has enlisted the services of Los Angeles-based CAA Executive Search and, according to league sources, the firm submitted a list of recommended candidates to the board last week. They’re believed to be in the vetting stage. Pelley wouldn’t put a hard timeline on the process, but it’s fair to say they would like to have somebody in place well before training camp opens at the end of September.

There aren’t many names floating around at the moment, and the ones that are out there appear to be pure speculation. Bob Myers? There’s no indication that the former Warriors exec would leave his cushy broadcasting gig at ESPN to get back into the front office and he is almost certainly too expensive for an organization that appears to be on a cost-cutting mission. A few plugged-in folks have wondered if they would follow a recent league trend and hire a current or former player agent, in the mould of the Los Angeles Lakers (Rob Pelinka), Utah Jazz (Justin Zanik) or the CAA-controlled New York Knicks (Leon Rose).
As if the situation wasn’t precarious enough already, imagine asking Webster to report to somebody with less relevant experience, who beat him out for the job that he wanted and felt that he earned. He was recently given a contract extension, along with the other prominent members of his leadership team, but according to sources, those deals run through the 2026-27 season. Hardly a long-term commitment or something that would preclude a new president from cleaning house and bringing in their own people.

But letting Webster go or, worse, forcing him out the door would be a mistake. He checks off a lot of crucial boxes that should be considered prerequisites for Toronto. He’s savvy and knows how to manage the cap, which has never been more important than it is with the complexities of the new CBA. He’s got an eye for talent. He understands the market and what makes it unique. He’s learned from one of the best to ever do it. All of that can also be said for his second-in-command, assistant general manager Dan Tolzman. Oh, and unlike Ujiri, whose $15 million annual salary (plus bonuses and raises) was deemed too rich for MLSE’s blood, those guys are more affordable.
What would a Webster-led front office look like? We don’t know. Nobody does. His fingerprints are all over just about every move the Raptors have made since Ujiri hired him in 2013 and then promoted him to GM back in 2017, but he hasn’t had full autonomy or final say on any of them. While Ujiri often deferred to, empowered and championed his people, there was never any doubt who was in charge.

Webster isn’t Ujiri, but that may end up being more of a feature than a bug. He doesn’t bring that same larger-than-life personality or gravitas, qualities that Toronto fans have generally looked for in their sports executives, but he’s as down to earth as it gets in this business and at that position. He has a more understated leadership style and a different way of communicating. While some rival execs were intimidated and occasionally put off by Ujiri, it’s hard to imagine anybody saying, "We won’t deal with Webster." He’s a bit of a chameleon in that he can dress down and have casual conversations with players or team staff while also fitting in with and commanding respect from his front-office colleagues and peers. The biggest question is whether he’ll be able to hold an audience in the MLSE boardroom – an arena in which Ujiri always felt comfortable – and sell the suits on a trade, signing or, crucially, himself.


As for what a Webster team might look like on the court, many will assume he’ll simply adopt Ujiri’s vision. Like his predecessor, he’s known to value long, versatile, defensive-minded players, as his ninth overall selection in last month’s draft – big man Collin Murray-Boyles – would indicate.


“[With] the positionless-ness of the NBA now, I don’t think you can have too many of these big, two-way wings,” Webster said after the Raptors made Scottie Barnes the fourth-overall pick in 2021. “We see it as, let’s have all five guys look like him and OG [Anunoby] and Pascal [Siakam].”


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Re: Grange: Bobby wants President’s Job 

Post#255 » by Harcore Fenton Mun » Wed Jul 16, 2025 5:26 pm

Wait, we reward people coming off 30W seasons? Shut up.
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Re: Grange: Bobby wants President’s Job 

Post#256 » by WuTang_CMB » Wed Jul 16, 2025 5:35 pm

Lewenberg always paints a negative picture for clicks.
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Re: Grange: Bobby wants President’s Job 

Post#257 » by WuTang_CMB » Wed Jul 16, 2025 7:56 pm


That the Raptors hadn’t made the playoffs in five seasons hadn’t dissuaded Ujiri from leaving Denver to become Toronto’s general manager in 2013. He saw it as a unique opportunity to build a winner. And he assembled his own Avengers-style cast of relatively young and unknown front-office talent to join him.

Ujiri’s new hires had a diverse range of superpowers, and each would play a role in building out his vision for the franchise. Weltman, VP of basketball operations, was a front-office veteran and Ujiri’s right-hand man. Keith Boyasrky, the Raptors analytics mind, took over that department as director. Dan Tolzman was a young scouting guru who’d worked for Ujiri with the Nuggets, who came in as director of scouting and player personnel. Teresa Resch, the VP of Basketball Operations, was the self-described “glue-guy”-type and a key player in the NBA’s international basketball programming for several years. Resch sat around the corner from Webster when they both worked in the NBA’s head office, back when they were both doing low-level grunt work.

Even though Ujiri wanted Webster for his experience with the NBA’s new salary cap rules, Webster wasn’t content with that job alone. He could have done that anywhere — back at the league’s head office, he was basically doing it for every team.
If Webster was going to leave New York, he wanted more than a job: he wanted an education. He wanted to learn how a team was run on the inside. He wanted to scout, he wanted to deal with coaches, he wanted to interact with the analytics staff. Ujiri agreed. If Webster provided his salary cap insights, Ujiri assured him that he could work on whatever else he wanted. He even let Webster make up his own job title. He settled on “vice president of basketball management and strategy.”

At the time, Lauren had quit her job in private equity to start her own New York-based company, Negative Underwear — which she founded with a friend that year. Her goals were in New York.

She made a spreadsheet calculating the amount of time she and Webster would actually spend together if she moved to Toronto too. Webster was going to be on the road much of the time, for games and scouting trips. So it was different dreams in different cities, for now.
Webster rented a loft in an old candy factory in Toronto’s Queen Street West district. He lived next to Trinity Bellwoods Park, a large green space next to trendy restaurants and stores where young adults sip cans of craft beer and play frisbee. He spent four years there, just another anonymous 20-something on Toronto’s busy streets, while helping turn the Raptors from a perennial loser into a championship contender.



Webster had been an asset to Ujiri and Weltman in his first few seasons behind the scenes. It wasn’t just that he had an encyclopedic knowledge of intricate salary cap regulations and loopholes. He also had a remarkable understanding of the structure that other teams were dealing with, Ujiri says. He understood how to connect what other teams really needed with what the Raptors’ objectives were. That process usually takes time, but Webster came up with answers almost immediately. Weltman calls him a “savant” in that regard. If Ujiri told Webster that he wanted to acquire a specific player and wanted to know how a possible transaction could work, Webster quickly ran through their options.
But Webster was doing much more. Along with current assistant GM Tolzman, Webster was deeply involved with uncovering unearthed talent, says Ujiri, who has a deep scouting background of his own.


For all its recent success, the Raptors scouting department is actually quite small, with only three full-time scouts to find talent in college, in international programs and within the NBA. Those scouts filter through every kid who has a hope of playing in the NBA and share their thoughts with Webster and Ujiri, who decide which players they want to watch further. The Raptors front office is known to often travel in packs to watch games, even in Europe.


Webster has always followed college basketball closely (even when it wasn’t his job) and in some cases he’ll have his eye on a player on his own.
When he was younger, Webster often attended basketball events that came to Hawaii — like the Nike High School showcase events, and the now-defunct Big Man camp, where NBA and college players would come to work on their skill and footwork, and NCAA tournaments.
When Webster was home in O’ahu over Christmas break in 2014, he scouted at the Diamond Head Classic, an annual NCCA invitational in Honolulu. This time he brought his father to a game between the University of Hawaii and the Wichita State Shockers.


They watched a junior named Fred VanVleet run the floor for the Shockers in a thrilling, one-point overtime win. Webster already had his eye on VanVleet, after he and then-assistant coach Nick Nurse watched him practice earlier that year when Toronto was in Wichita Kansas to play a preseason game. (Nurse was good friends with one of the Shockers’ coaches.)
But Webster won’t take credit for “finding” VanVleet and making him a Raptor — just like he won’t take credit for any of the decisions that look strong in hindsight.


He says everyone in the front office has a crazy story about where and how they first watched Fred play.
Ujiri and Weltman watched VanVleet score 23 points in a Sweet 16 loss to Notre Dame in Cleveland, a few months after Webster and his dad had watched him in Hawaii.


And beyond that, Webster says, when it comes to prospects, everyone in the front office takes the credit for successes and the blame for failures. That might sound like a cliché, but Webster argues that it’s actually fundamental to how the Raptors have built their team.
“We cross-check each other and discuss each player ad nauseum as a group,” he says. “Our decision-making process isn’t set up for one person to rule any decision.”


When it came to VanVleet, everyone involved in scouting watched him play and evaluated him.
At the 2016 NBA Draft, VanVleet slipped off the board. The Raptors had a chance to pick him up in the pile of prospects trying to find the best Plan B landing after going undrafted. Webster (still VP of whatever-he-made-up) and Tolzman (then director of player personnel) were on the phone at 1 a.m. deciding between VanVleet and another undrafted player to offer a summer league contract too. In the middle of the night, they bet on Fred. Tolzman offered VanVleet the contract and he accepted.


“It’s a long, lucky, arduous path to get to our end points,” Webster says.


In his first season as general manager, Webster worked hard to be connected to every department in the front office, including the analytics team, the scouts and the coaching staff. He wanted the best information possible to make decisions for the team. As a manager, he enabled staff to excel at their jobs while taking on new challenges. He led the way Ujiri has.
“He does a great job of bringing people along,” Ujiri says. “It’s how I want it to be because we won’t all be here forever.”
The Raptors finished first in the Eastern Conference that season, with a franchise-record 59 wins. But the playoffs were another story.
For the third time in three years, Toronto lost to LeBron James and the Cleveland Cavaliers. This time the Raptors were swept in the semifinals.
It was apparent that the team they’d built wasn’t good enough to get through the best in the game. And winning the regular season meant little if it didn’t end with a championship.


Four days after the Raptors’ season ended, Ujiri and Webster walked across the gym at the OVO Centre into Dwane Casey’s office and fired the man who would soon be named the NBA’s coach of the year.
The shakeup was far from done.


A few weeks later the Raptors’ executive team — Ujiri, Webster, Tolzman and Resch — flew to Treviso, a small city in northeastern Italy, which hosted the NBA’s EuroCamp for international prospects. But it was more than a scouting trip. The four went away with the intent of thinking deeply about what they needed to do to win a championship, which was the only goal they cared about. They were meticulous in creating the process they wanted to conduct interviews for the head coaching job. They were all a part of each interview, so they could make an assessment of the same information. Everyone had to have a say in the final decision.


After a brief stay in Treviso, they flew to Lithuania to interview a potential new head coach. It was just a quick trip; a covert detour. They had already interviewed assistant coach Nick Nurse for the job — a nearly four-hour process — but they were still hunting; they had to get it right.
While in Lithuania, the four discussed decisions that would affect the trajectory of the organization, good or bad. Every idea was on the table. The goal was to win a championship, and nothing less.


Sometime during their journey, Kawhi Leonard’s name came up. The Spurs superstar had sat out most of the season with a leg injury and seemed to be on the edge of his time with the organization. Was it possible Toronto could land him? They had some gelato, and stopped in a square. Resch snapped a picture of Webster, Ujiri and Tolzman.


Nurse was hired in a little over a week after they returned. Webster was big on giving him the role. He also wanted to have a close relationship with the team’s new head coach. Nurse had joined the Raptors as an assistant coach under Casey in 2013, and he and Webster were aligned on their vision for the team.


“There is like an assumption that there is some contention between a GM and a coach.” Webster says. “But to me, how are you going to win as an organization if there is contention? There is going to be some inherently, but to me, that’s not my personality. I just don’t think it breeds the most amount of trust. These are just basic relationship things.”
With the rookie head-coach signed, they moved on to the next target.
Webster knew that trying to acquire Leonard was an enormous bet. But they were already all-in on a coaching change. This was the time to gamble. And they already knew the outcome of the status quo. They had five disappointing ends to a season in their minds. That is what drove them: it was a championship or bust.


Webster had a relationship with Brian Wright, then the assistant general manager of the SanAntonio Spurs. They had been interns together with the Orlando Magic. Webster had developed a connection with Wright over the years and could speak frankly with his old friend.
“It’s such a competitive business, so relationships matter. Trust matters,” says Wright, who is now the Spurs GM. “Being able to have confidential conversations and work through some difficult things at times. That goes a long way.”
It’s the kind of connection Webster has developed with many people in the industry, Ujiri says — and another one of the reasons he gave him the GM role.


Neither Webster nor Wright will reveal when the first call was made regarding Leonard, but it was sometime after Lithuania, in early June, and it’s been reported that they spoke at the NBA Draft. Regardless, Webster will not accept credit for it. But that initial conversation sparked the biggest trade in Raptors history.


True to the Raptors front office workings, several people were involved in pushing the blockbuster deal that sent DeMar DeRozan — the team’s beloved “I am Toronto” star — to the Spurs for Leonard, the disgruntled, oft-injured enigma of other-worldly talent. As talks continued through July, Ujiri spent a lot of time in discussion with R.C. Buford, the Spurs longtime GM and current CEO. “There are multiple parties involved in something that big,” Wright says.


Before the trade could happen, Ujiri and Webster had to convince the MLSE board to approve the trade, which would take them over the luxury tax and possibly generate a lot of anger from fans loyal to DeRozan. After a long meeting, they came away with the board’s approval.
Ujiri was in Kenya with his friend Barack Obama, attending the opening of a new youth centre, while Webster was home working the final negotiations on the trade. He was in constant contact with Ujiri, who stayed up through the night in Kenya as the deal inched closer to completion. Webster played point on the intricate details of the trade. It was nearly a month of back and forth.
As the discussion got closer to completion, Webster weighed whether it was the right deal to make.


They knew they were going to do something, but did this make the most sense. That existential decision had already been made. But did it involve the right pieces? The Raptors would give up DeRozan, along with promising prospect Poeltl and a first-round pick for Leonard and Danny Green. There could have been many other variations.
Was this the right one?


“You only get one chance to do a deal like that,” Webster says


And he’s thought about pushing further in his career. But at what cost? What sacrifice? And about what kind of voice he should take on as an Hawaiian and as a Japanese-American — what example does he set, and what responsibility does he carry?
A man of goals, driven by a calculated process, Webster seems uncertain about what direction his young adventure leads.
“What do I want to do?” he says. “Where do I want to go?”


Is his ambition to become the president of a team, like Ujiri? To head back to the NBA head office? Or start from the bottom in a new industry entirely. Maybe circle back to the CIA. Or open a food stand on a beach in Kailua, as Webster — a talented cook — has long joked he would.
There is truth in the jest, though. Webster wants his children to know what it means to be Hawaiian. And one day, he thinks, he’ll end up back where he started.


Webster looks down at his phone — the one he uses to run the Raptors. He texts with the players and staff regularly. He’s received a message from one of the team’s young prospects. It doesn’t have any capitalization.
“It’s how young people communicate these days,” he says, and laughs.
Once the NBA’s youngest GM, Webster is feeling old.


A few weeks later, Webster stands on the sidelines at Scotiabank Arena during the 2019-20 season opener, watching a montage of the Raptors becoming NBA champions. He feels the energy of the packed crowd, in a way he hasn’t since the Finals — back when he still couldn’t process what was unfolding.


Cheers rise with flashes of each player and every iconic moment. The entire arena relives the suspense of the bouncing ball on Leonard’s Game 7 winner from the corner. But Webster doesn’t get emotional until seeing the clip of VanVleet’s wild roar after hitting his final three in Oakland to put the Raptors up for good.


The crowd erupts for Ujiri when he’s called to receive his championship ring from NBA commissioner Adam Silver. Webster goes next — to loud cheers, but less so, not that he notices or cares. His diamond-gilded ring is engraved BW, which is what the players call him. He stands off to the side, watching each of them called out, getting goosebumps as the crowd reacts.


When the ceremony is over, Webster takes his place in the stands, next to Lauren, a dozen rows up — where he always sits. His phone lights up with messages and screenshots of him getting his ring on TV from people across his Ohana. Webster bobbles the glistening rock back and forth in his hands.
On the court, Marc Gasol loses the tip-off and the Raptors season as NBA champs begins. Webster takes his seat and fades into the crowd, an island in the great wide sea.
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Re: Grange: Bobby wants President’s Job 

Post#258 » by Dalek » Wed Jul 16, 2025 9:12 pm

The main takeaway from me in this Webster article is this nugget:

According to multiple sources, Ujiri was the “driving force” behind the Brandon Ingram deal at last February’s trade deadline, while others in the room were less convinced about the fit and the timing. To just assume that Webster would pick up where Ujiri left off might be misguided. They could use a fresh perspective after missing the playoffs in four of the past five seasons, but they don’t necessarily need to look outside of the organization for that. The grass isn’t always greener.

https://www.tsn.ca/nba/josh-lewenberg-search-for-new-raptors-president-is-underway-but-best-candidate-could-be-in-house-1.2335939

So there was a hint of disagreement on Ingram, and Ujiri went ahead anyway. This is kind of what I thought. Ujiri likes to do these types of big name deals while drafting and role player trades are for Webster.

Does Webster have a vision for the future? He might be convincing, but I some may see still him as a NBA accounting guy who knows the CBA and was never a player or agent or operating with free reigns as a GM. Keeping Bobby and not hiring a new president to report to the Board is problematic.

It would create some issues with accountability to the Board. Will any big deals get done this way? Ujiri always had Larry T to enhance his influence and then he had a Board role. What influence does Bobby have when he wasn't even the new guy's hire?

This is why I think they will look at some fresh ideas for the next FO.
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Re: Grange: Bobby wants President’s Job 

Post#259 » by earthtone » Wed Jul 16, 2025 10:09 pm

Dalek wrote:The main takeaway from me in this Webster article is this nugget:

According to multiple sources, Ujiri was the “driving force” behind the Brandon Ingram deal at last February’s trade deadline, while others in the room were less convinced about the fit and the timing. To just assume that Webster would pick up where Ujiri left off might be misguided. They could use a fresh perspective after missing the playoffs in four of the past five seasons, but they don’t necessarily need to look outside of the organization for that. The grass isn’t always greener.

https://www.tsn.ca/nba/josh-lewenberg-search-for-new-raptors-president-is-underway-but-best-candidate-could-be-in-house-1.2335939

So there was a hint of disagreement on Ingram, and Ujiri went ahead anyway. This is kind of what I thought. Ujiri likes to do these types of big name deals while drafting and role player trades are for Webster.

Does Webster have a vision for the future? He might be convincing, but I some may see still him as a NBA accounting guy who knows the CBA and was never a player or agent or operating with free reigns as a GM. Keeping Bobby and not hiring a new president to report to the Board is problematic.

It would create some issues with accountability to the Board. Will any big deals get done this way? Ujiri always had Larry T to enhance his influence and then he had a Board role. What influence does Bobby have when he wasn't even the new guy's hire?

This is why I think they will look at some fresh ideas for the next FO.

I don't think it makes much sense to try to split up transactions into Bobby moves and Masai moves. They were the GM & President, and I'm sure they had there own system of deliberation and discussion before doing a move.

If Ingram succeeds, Masai & Bobby deserve credit, if he underperforms they both deserve scrutiny. Same for every other transaction made while Masai was with the team.
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Re: Grange: Bobby wants President’s Job 

Post#260 » by OAKLEY_2 » Thu Jul 17, 2025 2:12 pm

WaltFrazier wrote:
TGM wrote:
Raps Next GM wrote:
Great way to provide some perspective, even though it’s clearly falling on deaf ears.
The Blue Jays have not been as bad as Toronto fans seem to believe. The problem has been that the Jays have underachieved to expectations. That’s the difference.

And Shapiro inherited an older franchise with key players past their prime, so he did have to go through a rebuild of sorts. Reportedly a large part of Shapiro’s frustration was that AA was dealing away prospects for win-now guys. So Shapiro did not inherit a contender.

Shapiro’s biggest failure in my opinion is that his management hasn’t developed any stars. Vlad and Bichette were already in the pipeline when he arrived. Baseball players take longer to develop, but where is the next wave? Manoah appeared to be one but he has completely flamed out. They have promising prospects coming, but none have helped the Vlad/Bo timeline yet.



Shapiro has given out some pretty bad contracts. The Springer contract until this year has been a total failure. Trading away Teoscar was dumb and subsequently signed Santander who has barely played. Could have signed Vladdy at 10 years for 300 million like 2 seasons ago. Waited and paid him 500 instead.

Haven’t really drafted any tier one prospects over the past decade. He can play AA as much as he wants but he has had 10 years and this has been a Wild Card calibre team the whole team with a big payroll.

He must have naked pictures of Ed Rogers cause don’t know how you survive that long outside of Corporate Politicians and Brown nosers

Funny, with the Jays recent good stretch that has them in first place, I totally forgot about Santander. But I don't pay attention as closely as I did a few years ago. I assume he's hurt? Varsho should be back soon too I expect?

As I say, my interest is down since Shapiro took over. In 2015 and 16 I watched almost every game or listened on radio if driving. This may be a crazy statement but I feel like AA had the greatest deadline in the history of baseball in 2015. The excitement of the arrival of David Price, Tulo and others, the run the team went on. The bat flip game and rivalry with Rangers. It was reminiscent of the two WS champs or the late 80s Jays for excitement. Sadly they came up short, but those were real contenders. I've never felt that excitement ever since 2016. I wish AA had had the chance to rebuild here, still hope he returns some day. All the numbers about won loss percentage and such under Shapiro doesn't move me. The excitement is gone.

What thread is this again? Oh yeah, Bobby Webster. Maybe he'll do ok. Probably a safe choice for Rogers and Pelley.


I don't pay any attention to the Jays. 92 and 93 were a looooong time ago. Bat flip was cool but they started their full on rebuild in '94 and... in 2025 theyz rounding into form. Anyone else up for a 31 year rebuild with our Raps? Didn't think so.

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