PG: Back to .500 (5-5)

[MoneyBall]

Haha yeah that was funny. Preseason was wild around here. I guess folks were just so afraid of Scottie not improving that his awful preseason led to some overreaction.

Also, fans of this sport tend to weigh scoring ability too heavily in how they assess players. It’s just how it is. Barnes isn’t some fantastic scorer and certainly doesn’t score in a pretty way — he mostly gets opportunity buckets or stuff that isn’t fancy. And I think many fans just don’t understand the impact of getting the ball up the court quickly, passing to the right guy, freezing the D with a shot or pass fake, rotating to a cutter and recovering, calling out screens before they arrive, telling teammates to clear a side to create space and then dumping it off to an advantage match-up, etc. Barnes just does a lot of the nuances really well and it adds up to impact even when he’s shooting awful. But his game isn’t pretty and he isn’t fluid so I think his overall impact gets overlooked.

I agree. Barnes is our best and most valuable player, full stop. His impact on the floor is more conducive to winning than Ingram. It's not even close, really.

If Ingram were our best player, we wouldn't be talking about wanting to trade him ASAP after just 10 games lol.

Ingram brings out Scottie’s impact though. Without Ingram, Scottie goes back to being the first on the hierarchy and craters our offence in the situation.

I agree, Ingram compliments Scottie on offense quite well. But, of course, that doesn’t make him the best player overall on the team. Scottie's overall impact is still number one.

[SFour]

The FO gets a solid back-up C, and people are still complaining. Some people think there are a 100 uber athletic, rim running, rim protecting big men out there floating around. lol.

We have 2 competent bigs now and multiple small ball 5 options. That's much better than many teams who are forced to play these scrub bigs all the time.

There's only 1 real center on the team....the rest are forwards. Mogbo and CMB are centers as much as Scottie is. Sandro is like a Turkoglu, I don't view him as a real center.

Sure you can call them small ball centers but that's really just a forward.

As soon as Poeltl gets injured all we really have is big forwards....so they're forced to play small ball centers which comes with weaknesses that will be exploited by the opponent.

[manjusaka]

The FO gets a solid back-up C, and people are still complaining. Some people think there are a 100 uber athletic, rim running, rim protecting big men out there floating around. lol.

i think the roster needs a 3rd center that has legit size. we've had bad luck with koloko and chomche. orlando robinson would be good enough. need it for nights yak is out or against massive teams for a handful of mins.

I agree and said as much in training camp (wanted us to keep Sarr). That being said, there's a 0% chance Darko is starting Robinson against Embiid here. He seems like he would prefer to stay small. Mamu couldn't get into this game even though we were getting destroyed in the paint.

SB was balling in the 3rd q before goes to the bench stretching his back. He prob got tweaked on that the play where he got pushed by Embiid. This was where the game went off the rails.

Here is the thing, not sure it’s Darko or the front office, they like to play small, and let the players playing out of their best position. It works in a certain situation, but may not always work. We saw this before, got dominated by bigger lineups. Like what’s up playing Ochai at 4? See that triple double? RJB had to play a lot of 4 last year too. When he can play sg like this year, he can get miss matches since he is bigger than most SGs.

When we got another legitimate center with size to go against Embiid, we don’t need to tax on SB’s work load like this game. Sandro is good but he is not a good matchup against Embiid and Drummond downlow.

This is a b2b away game. Our players gave in and fought well. A loss is a loss but this one I take it.

[PushDaRock]

The FO gets a solid back-up C, and people are still complaining. Some people think there are a 100 uber athletic, rim running, rim protecting big men out there floating around. lol.

We have 2 competent bigs now and multiple small ball 5 options. That's much better than many teams who are forced to play these scrub bigs all the time.

There's only 1 real center on the team....the rest are forwards. Mogbo and CMB are centers as much as Scottie is. Sandro is like a Turkoglu, I don't view him as a real center.

Sure you can call them small ball centers but that's really just a forward.

Who cares if he's considered a real C? He's been effective at C for us, that's all that matters.

[SFour]

We have 2 competent bigs now and multiple small ball 5 options. That's much better than many teams who are forced to play these scrub bigs all the time.

There's only 1 real center on the team....the rest are forwards. Mogbo and CMB are centers as much as Scottie is. Sandro is like a Turkoglu, I don't view him as a real center.

Sure you can call them small ball centers but that's really just a forward.

Who cares if he's considered a real C? He's been effective at C for us, that's all that matters.

It's effective when Poeltl is healthy, then you have variety.....when he's out the opposing teams can gameplan to exploit the small ball center.

[PushDaRock]

i think the roster needs a 3rd center that has legit size. we've had bad luck with koloko and chomche. orlando robinson would be good enough. need it for nights yak is out or against massive teams for a handful of mins.

I agree and said as much in training camp (wanted us to keep Sarr). That being said, there's a 0% chance Darko is starting Robinson against Embiid here. He seems like he would prefer to stay small. Mamu couldn't get into this game even though we were getting destroyed in the paint.

SB was balling in the 3rd q before goes to the bench stretching his back. He prob got tweaked on that the play where he got pushed by Embiid. This was where the game went off the rails.

Here is the thing, not sure it’s Darko or the front office, they like to play small, and let the players playing out of their best position. It works in a certain situation, but may not always work. We saw this before, got dominated by bigger lineups. Like what’s up playing Ochai at 4? See that triple double? RJB had to play a lot of 4 last year too. When he can play sg like this year, he can get miss matches since he is bigger than most SGs.

When we got another legitimate center with size to go against Embiid, we don’t need to tax on SB’s work load like this game. Sandro is good but he is not a good matchup against Embiid and Drummond downlow.

This is a b2b away game. Our players gave in and fought well. A loss is a loss but this one I take it.

I think it's pretty clearly organizational philosophy to not have size out there at the 5 just for the sake of having size. They had Robinson and Castleton on the roster and got rid of both. They don't want to play these stay at home bigs that only provide size and rebounding that lack versatility out there. That's only considering 1 end of the floor too, these guys usually just kill your offense even more on the other end because they can't shoot and also lack any sort of scoring ability outside of garbage buckets.

[anotherhomer]

There's only 1 real center on the team....the rest are forwards. Mogbo and CMB are centers as much as Scottie is. Sandro is like a Turkoglu, I don't view him as a real center.

Sure you can call them small ball centers but that's really just a forward.

Who cares if he's considered a real C? He's been effective at C for us, that's all that matters.

It's effective when Poeltl is healthy, then you have variety.....when he's out the opposing teams can gameplan to exploit the small ball center.

that's a good point, and that's why OKC is paying IH 27M a year

[HumbleRen]

I agree. Barnes is our best and most valuable player, full stop. His impact on the floor is more conducive to winning than Ingram. It's not even close, really.

If Ingram were our best player, we wouldn't be talking about wanting to trade him ASAP after just 10 games lol.

Ingram brings out Scottie’s impact though. Without Ingram, Scottie goes back to being the first on the hierarchy and craters our offence in the situation.

I agree, Ingram compliments Scottie on offense quite well. But, of course, that doesn’t make him the best player overall on the team. Scottie's overall impact is still number one.

I agree, Scottie’s our most impactful player.

I’m just kinda perplexed at people being down on Ingram when he’s one of the largest reasons why Scottie and RJ aren’t painfully inefficient on offence.

[PushDaRock]

There's only 1 real center on the team....the rest are forwards. Mogbo and CMB are centers as much as Scottie is. Sandro is like a Turkoglu, I don't view him as a real center.

Sure you can call them small ball centers but that's really just a forward.

Who cares if he's considered a real C? He's been effective at C for us, that's all that matters.

It's effective when Poeltl is healthy, then you have variety.....when he's out the opposing teams can gameplan to exploit the small ball center.

Obviously if Jak is out long term, they have to get another C (that can actually play) to shore up the position.

There's still 2 ends of the court to play. If the other team goes big, they still need to guard out in space on the other end.

[PushDaRock]

Ingram brings out Scottie’s impact though. Without Ingram, Scottie goes back to being the first on the hierarchy and craters our offence in the situation.

I agree, Ingram compliments Scottie on offense quite well. But, of course, that doesn’t make him the best player overall on the team. Scottie's overall impact is still number one.

I agree, Scottie’s our most impactful player.

I’m just kinda perplexed at people being down on Ingram when he’s one of the largest reasons why Scottie and RJ aren’t painfully inefficient on offence.

Mostly because of the defensive end where he probably is worse than most thought he would be. He's been our worst defender pretty comfortably.

[MiamiSPX]

Ingram brings out Scottie’s impact though. Without Ingram, Scottie goes back to being the first on the hierarchy and craters our offence in the situation.

I agree, Ingram compliments Scottie on offense quite well. But, of course, that doesn’t make him the best player overall on the team. Scottie's overall impact is still number one.

I agree, Scottie’s our most impactful player.

I’m just kinda perplexed at people being down on Ingram when he’s one of the largest reasons why Scottie and RJ aren’t painfully inefficient on offence.

BI has come exactly as advertised. Anyone expecting him to be some 2-way star just wasn't familiar with his game, it's okay to admit that, he did play for the Pels after all. Plus, if he were some 2-way star, he wouldn't have been available for the pile of crap we gave up for him, and he wouldn't have wanted to go to Toronto.

[MoneyBall]

Ingram brings out Scottie’s impact though. Without Ingram, Scottie goes back to being the first on the hierarchy and craters our offence in the situation.

I agree, Ingram compliments Scottie on offense quite well. But, of course, that doesn’t make him the best player overall on the team. Scottie's overall impact is still number one.

I agree, Scottie’s our most impactful player.

I’m just kinda perplexed at people being down on Ingram when he’s one of the largest reasons why Scottie and RJ aren’t painfully inefficient on offence.

I'm not down on Ingram because he's exactly what I expected him to be. I think some people thought he'd revitalize his career here in Toronto and take another step. Maybe that happens, that would be great, but I never had that expectation of him.

Getting upset over the water bottle thing is kind of silly too, but whatever.

[billy_hoyle]

Who cares if he's considered a real C? He's been effective at C for us, that's all that matters.

It's effective when Poeltl is healthy, then you have variety.....when he's out the opposing teams can gameplan to exploit the small ball center.

Obviously if Jak is out long term, they have to get another C (that can actually play) to shore up the position.

There's still 2 ends of the court to play. If the other team goes big, they still need to guard out in space on the other end.

You've noticed the +20 reb differential in games Yak doesn't play, right?

That's the exploit. Are you suggesting Sandro, a decent offensive stretch 4/5, is going to cover that gap?

Anyone who watches ball knows that we might be able to gimmick or get hot for a quarter or two, but we will get beat long term against that sort of size (and corresponding rebounding) differential. The sheer number of easy second chance points and empty offensive possessions that equates to is insurmountable.

[MoneyBall]

I agree, Ingram compliments Scottie on offense quite well. But, of course, that doesn’t make him the best player overall on the team. Scottie's overall impact is still number one.

I agree, Scottie’s our most impactful player.

I’m just kinda perplexed at people being down on Ingram when he’s one of the largest reasons why Scottie and RJ aren’t painfully inefficient on offence.

Mostly because of the defensive end where he probably is worse than most thought he would be. He's been our worst defender pretty comfortably.

He's definitely slower than I expected him to be. That said, he was always a net negative on defense his whole career, so I'm still not terribly surprised myself.

I think I can make an arguement that RJ's been just as bad as BI on defense, but I don't feel like it because overall Barrett has been quite good.

[PushDaRock]

It's effective when Poeltl is healthy, then you have variety.....when he's out the opposing teams can gameplan to exploit the small ball center.

Obviously if Jak is out long term, they have to get another C (that can actually play) to shore up the position.

There's still 2 ends of the court to play. If the other team goes big, they still need to guard out in space on the other end.

You've noticed the +20 reb differential in games Yak doesn't play, right?

That's the exploit. Are you suggesting Sandro, a decent offensive stretch 4/5, is going to cover that gap?

Anyone who watches ball knows that we might be able to gimmick or get hot for a quarter or two, but we will get beat long term against that sort of size (and corresponding rebounding) differential. The sheer number of easy second chance points and empty offensive possessions that equates to is insurmountable.

To quote a Raptors Legend, it's Basketball not Reboundball.

Mamu also has the best DRTG on the entire team at under 100 DRTG. So, the team has been actually elite defensively with him on the floor in the small sample size.

Nobody is saying they don't need Jak, they absolutely do. I am simply saying inserting a random scrub big in his place improves the rebounding alone marginally with some added rim protection, but it will lead to a lot of other issues on both ends of the court. If Jak isn't going to be out long term, I would much rather Mamu and CMB soak up those mins available.

[PushDaRock]

I agree, Scottie’s our most impactful player.

I’m just kinda perplexed at people being down on Ingram when he’s one of the largest reasons why Scottie and RJ aren’t painfully inefficient on offence.

Mostly because of the defensive end where he probably is worse than most thought he would be. He's been our worst defender pretty comfortably.

He's definitely slower than I expected him to be. That said, he was always a net negative on defense his whole career, so I'm still not terribly surprised myself.

I think I can make an arguement that RJ's been just as bad as BI on defense, but I don't feel like it because overall Barrett has been quite good.

RJ definitely has not been as bad as him. The numbers support that and I would say the eye test does too. RJ is a much better man defender, he's just not good off the ball. Ingram has been really bad at both.

[tsherkin]

I agree. Barnes is our best and most valuable player, full stop. His impact on the floor is more conducive to winning than Ingram. It's not even close, really.

If Ingram were our best player, we wouldn't be talking about wanting to trade him ASAP after just 10 games lol.

Ingram brings out Scottie’s impact though. Without Ingram, Scottie goes back to being the first on the hierarchy and craters our offence in the situation.

I agree, Ingram compliments Scottie on offense quite well. But, of course, that doesn’t make him the best player overall on the team. Scottie's overall impact is still number one.

Bi is a critical addition to the team, especially when he's on. He's a little more willing to have at it than Scottie, and of course he's better at creating with a live dribble than Barnes, and so they pair well. But I think I'm with Money on this one. BI only brings it on one end and Scottie's two-way impact player makes him the better guy overall when he's playing alongside BI.

They pair well together.

[Tor_Raps]

Luxury of waiting?


It's year 6 of waiting

Haha took the words right out of my mouth. We are a tax paying team who are trying to win this year. Can we stop with the excuses already lol.

We are not trying to win a championship.
The real question is what moves to make to get to the next level.
This team needs more than a backup center.

Of course we need more than a backup Center but we are saying, "how about patching up a hole thats existed for 6 years and then move onto other areas."

[theonlyeastcoastrapsfan]

Nice to see IQ's shot coming back to mean. That being said, I still think, no matter what the minute division is, I feel he and Shead would help us more overall if they switched roles. Let IQ come out firing from the logo and let Shead get everyone into their spots and set the tone defensively.

With regards to the back up 2, clearly I feel they should role with Battle. However if they are set in stone to continue to give the 1st round picks the opportunities, they need to pick one, game to game and stop trying to have someone show out in 10 min with someone coming in behind them. The players won't get their rhythm and we'll be all year wondering why no one is coming out and taking the job.

[MoneyBall]

Mostly because of the defensive end where he probably is worse than most thought he would be. He's been our worst defender pretty comfortably.

He's definitely slower than I expected him to be. That said, he was always a net negative on defense his whole career, so I'm still not terribly surprised myself.

I think I can make an arguement that RJ's been just as bad as BI on defense, but I don't feel like it because overall Barrett has been quite good.

RJ definitely has not been as bad as him. The numbers support that and I would say the eye test does too. RJ is a much better man defender, he's just not good off the ball. Ingram has been really bad at both.

Maybe you're right, but the numbers I've seen suggest they are close. RJ has the worse DRtg among all starters... by one point per 100 possessions. His DBPM is slightly better though by 0.2. Either way we agree Ingram has been bad on that end for sure.