PG: Raptors gut out a resilient win

[theonlyeastcoastrapsfan]

Just getting a chance to watch last night’s game and team runs well with the 2 g look with Shead and IQ and IQ in these last few games is doing a better job getting into the paint with a live dribble and creating an opportunity.

I have not heard an announcer yell “clock” in a bit.

[earthtone]

There is evidence they are still trying hard to make a big trade. I think it's clear it's the latter. They trying to go for Ja, AD, Sabonis, thet tried Trae too.

It worries me they may go hard after Sabonis. I have seen Darko talking to him and embracing him after the game. His salary is like IQ's: overpaid. Perhaps I am wrong but I think trading for him doesn’t make us much better, and we are stuck with him after, I hope Kings don't like our trade package.

Im sure they are trying, but who's gonna want what were offering with out alot of draft capital and whose worth it that's available? And its not rocket science that they are having a hard time. While many here don't see it the IQ and Poeltl deals were said to be headscratchers at the time. I mean its been said, but IQ's deal created a cascade of impacts for other RFA's and GM's being such an overpay that it messed up the market, and according to a recent Darko interview, they are asking him to do something he's never done before which is to play PG. its no wonder he's stuggling. We gave a 30 year old big a two year extension two years too early - where is the benfiet to the the raps in that? Im not against IQ, we should feature him more at what he's good at. Im against not having good pg play, so I like Shead playing more often. They have to figure out what to do with RJ, Gradey Walter, because if were trying to win, Shead will only play more, not less.

Yes I agree those contracts are overpaid and too long. There is a contingent here that tries to cope saying they are worth it, maybe Yak will be if he is healthy again, but I disagree. The idea (what I would try) is to offload one of them, like IQ Or Yak, plus a combination of one or more of dick ochai Walter, plus draft consideration for a low value star like Morant etc. Perhaps our offer is still the best offer ant they think they can hold on IQ for a season and a half, and then his contract is valuable, and perhaps they see something In quick as 6th man for short term.

RJ I think we want to keep at low salary so we should only extend at a favorable number just above MLE Equivalent. I don't think there will be that many takers anyways at that price. He may prefer Toronto over other cities anyways.

C'mon now, RJ's averaged 21pts/6.1reb/4.7ast in his time as a Raptor. MLE is only ~$15 million next season, his value is definitely way higher than that.

[Madvillainy2004]

Today's TJ...of course. But Gradey is 22 years old...TJ wasn't in the league yet at 22.

Sure, but the shot and the on-ball action were there in college too, when he was younger than Gradey.

I just use him as an example of a guy who doesn't shoot the 3 but carved out a career taking and making 2's.

He's generally a low shooting volume kind of guy, and very much pass-first, so that isn't super surprising. But he's not a great example for Gradey because Dick lacks the PG skills McConnell has had since before he was ever in the NBA, so that transition isn't something I'd expect to happen.

If Gradey isnt a 36-39% volume 3 point shooter he has no role on a good NBA team. The other stuff is nice but his shooting is what will keep him in the legaue and if he doesnt have a 3 point shot hes not gonna cut it at this level.

[theonlyeastcoastrapsfan]

I still don’t understand why people romanticize gradey like he has all this untapped potential and we wanna develop him and invest. Meanwhile we traded for Rj at 23 (only one year older than gradey is currently) who already had shown that he was miles ahead of gradey dick in his first two years, and there were a bunch of posters even at the time proclaiming already that he was a bust and acted like he was just nothing trade filler. And to this day people kept talking about getting rid of him at any opportunity for a better fit.

But we’re here acting like a worse player with a worse track record and worse overall talent (Rj top 3 pick vs 13 pick) is somehow worth all this investment and talk of omg if he just did this and this and this he’d be good. Yet none of that same talk of potential and development came when we acquired Rj. It’s the constant nonsense logic like this that I argue against consistently. People don’t make sense at all and have the audacity to act like the **** I say is so outlandish and bogus.

To me if Gradey gets in garbage time and over time shows he’s doing really well, or we have a big rash of injuries and he gets some extended time and does well, or he shows improvement in practice to make you think he needs to be out there, he wouldn’t be. We shouldn’t just be awarding Gradey a chance to show half a season is just some variance. We’re competing now. I don’t think it helps him or jkobe or battle to split roles- someone needs the nod and the role for a while - it can’t be a game by game quarter by quarter thing or this is what you get. Less is more. So I’m not one stuck on Gradey. Why the difference in RJ, for some, may be do to money and contract and that it seems like Raps front office have been off him for years for some reason, both in contracts they gave others and reports of them telling him they were shopping him last year. I don’t think they envision going deep into tax for RJ so with the team at the tax now for the next little bit, it’s hard to see how they’re factoring him into the future.

He’s been good when he’s played this year, imo.

[mihaic]

Im sure they are trying, but who's gonna want what were offering with out alot of draft capital and whose worth it that's available? And its not rocket science that they are having a hard time. While many here don't see it the IQ and Poeltl deals were said to be headscratchers at the time. I mean its been said, but IQ's deal created a cascade of impacts for other RFA's and GM's being such an overpay that it messed up the market, and according to a recent Darko interview, they are asking him to do something he's never done before which is to play PG. its no wonder he's stuggling. We gave a 30 year old big a two year extension two years too early - where is the benfiet to the the raps in that? Im not against IQ, we should feature him more at what he's good at. Im against not having good pg play, so I like Shead playing more often. They have to figure out what to do with RJ, Gradey Walter, because if were trying to win, Shead will only play more, not less.

Yes I agree those contracts are overpaid and too long. There is a contingent here that tries to cope saying they are worth it, maybe Yak will be if he is healthy again, but I disagree. The idea (what I would try) is to offload one of them, like IQ Or Yak, plus a combination of one or more of dick ochai Walter, plus draft consideration for a low value star like Morant etc. Perhaps our offer is still the best offer ant they think they can hold on IQ for a season and a half, and then his contract is valuable, and perhaps they see something In quick as 6th man for short term.

RJ I think we want to keep at low salary so we should only extend at a favorable number just above MLE Equivalent. I don't think there will be that many takers anyways at that price. He may prefer Toronto over other cities anyways.

C'mon now, RJ's averaged 21pts/6.1reb/4.7ast in his time as a Raptor. MLE is only ~$15 million next season, his value is definitely way higher than that.

I will have to admit I am wrong I thought Mle is around 20M. I was thinking low 20s for RJ. Who will offer more than us? And who has more than MLE? Hopefully the answer is noone meets both criteria

[earthtone]

Yes I agree those contracts are overpaid and too long. There is a contingent here that tries to cope saying they are worth it, maybe Yak will be if he is healthy again, but I disagree. The idea (what I would try) is to offload one of them, like IQ Or Yak, plus a combination of one or more of dick ochai Walter, plus draft consideration for a low value star like Morant etc. Perhaps our offer is still the best offer ant they think they can hold on IQ for a season and a half, and then his contract is valuable, and perhaps they see something In quick as 6th man for short term.

RJ I think we want to keep at low salary so we should only extend at a favorable number just above MLE Equivalent. I don't think there will be that many takers anyways at that price. He may prefer Toronto over other cities anyways.

C'mon now, RJ's averaged 21pts/6.1reb/4.7ast in his time as a Raptor. MLE is only ~$15 million next season, his value is definitely way higher than that.

I will have to admit I am wrong I thought Mle is around 20M. I was thinking low 20s for RJ. Who will offer more than us? And who has more than MLE? Hopefully the answer is noone meets both criteria

Cap space pretty much doesn't exist these days so I don't think anyone would sign him outright as an FA, but there's also no need to low-ball. Especially when he has the same agent as Scottie. If he gets 5 years/$150 million, that's a pretty fair offer for both sides.

In the first year of that deal (2027-28), that would put us at ~$185 million for our Top 6 guys, and the luxury tax line is projected to be at $211 mil.

The Knicks will be paying $205 mil for their starting five, Magic are paying $180 mil for their starting five, Cavs are paying $180 mil for their big 4, 76ers are paying $163 mil for their big 3 ($56 mil for 37-year old Paul George ). And that's all without taking into account the extensions for the 2023 draft class which would kick in that season.

[Tripod]

C'mon now, RJ's averaged 21pts/6.1reb/4.7ast in his time as a Raptor. MLE is only ~$15 million next season, his value is definitely way higher than that.

I will have to admit I am wrong I thought Mle is around 20M. I was thinking low 20s for RJ. Who will offer more than us? And who has more than MLE? Hopefully the answer is noone meets both criteria

Cap space pretty much doesn't exist these days so I don't think anyone would sign him outright as an FA, but there's also no need to low-ball. Especially when he has the same agent as Scottie. If he gets 5 years/$150 million, that's a pretty fair offer for both sides.

In the first year of that deal (2027-28), that would put us at ~$185 million for our Top 6 guys, and the luxury tax line is projected to be at $211 mil.

The Knicks will be paying $205 mil for their starting five, Magic are paying $180 mil for their starting five, Cavs are paying $180 mil for their big 4, 76ers are paying $163 mil for their big 3 ($56 mil for 37-year old Paul George ). And that's all without taking into account the extensions for the 2023 draft class which would kick in that season.

But again...if RJ is seen as a neutralish to bad contract now, him with more term and cap hit makes no sense unless you plan to never move him.

[earthtone]

I will have to admit I am wrong I thought Mle is around 20M. I was thinking low 20s for RJ. Who will offer more than us? And who has more than MLE? Hopefully the answer is noone meets both criteria

Cap space pretty much doesn't exist these days so I don't think anyone would sign him outright as an FA, but there's also no need to low-ball. Especially when he has the same agent as Scottie. If he gets 5 years/$150 million, that's a pretty fair offer for both sides.

In the first year of that deal (2027-28), that would put us at ~$185 million for our Top 6 guys, and the luxury tax line is projected to be at $211 mil.

The Knicks will be paying $205 mil for their starting five, Magic are paying $180 mil for their starting five, Cavs are paying $180 mil for their big 4, 76ers are paying $163 mil for their big 3 ($56 mil for 37-year old Paul George ). And that's all without taking into account the extensions for the 2023 draft class which would kick in that season.

But again...if RJ is seen as a neutralish to bad contract now, him with more term and cap hit makes no sense unless you plan to never move him.

I'm not sure how much stock I put in to the 'RJ is a toxic asset' idea. He's been a good player by raw counting stats and advanced metrics in his time in Toronto, and he's really only some decent FT shooting away from positive shooting efficiency. A guy averaging 20/5/5 making $30 mil through his prime years (five year deal would cover age 27-31) is a pretty good contract and very moveable imo.

[Tripod]

Cap space pretty much doesn't exist these days so I don't think anyone would sign him outright as an FA, but there's also no need to low-ball. Especially when he has the same agent as Scottie. If he gets 5 years/$150 million, that's a pretty fair offer for both sides.

In the first year of that deal (2027-28), that would put us at ~$185 million for our Top 6 guys, and the luxury tax line is projected to be at $211 mil.

The Knicks will be paying $205 mil for their starting five, Magic are paying $180 mil for their starting five, Cavs are paying $180 mil for their big 4, 76ers are paying $163 mil for their big 3 ($56 mil for 37-year old Paul George ). And that's all without taking into account the extensions for the 2023 draft class which would kick in that season.

But again...if RJ is seen as a neutralish to bad contract now, him with more term and cap hit makes no sense unless you plan to never move him.

I'm not sure how much stock I put in to the 'RJ is a toxic asset' idea. He's been a good player by raw counting stats and advanced metrics in his time in Toronto, and he's really only some decent FT shooting away from positive shooting efficiency. A guy averaging 20/5/5 making $30 mil through his prime years (five year deal would cover age 27-31) is a pretty good contract and very moveable imo.

You can say all that....but...

Lots of reports have him available now and last year. Where are the offers/rumors of teams giving the Raps positive value...like filler+1st even? It's not out there. And I say this as someone who likes RJ.

But the offeres are not there now with 1.5 years left at a lower cost, more term and cap hit is going to be worse.

Plus, what team is offering him 30 million besides the Raps?

[earthtone]

But again...if RJ is seen as a neutralish to bad contract now, him with more term and cap hit makes no sense unless you plan to never move him.

I'm not sure how much stock I put in to the 'RJ is a toxic asset' idea. He's been a good player by raw counting stats and advanced metrics in his time in Toronto, and he's really only some decent FT shooting away from positive shooting efficiency. A guy averaging 20/5/5 making $30 mil through his prime years (five year deal would cover age 27-31) is a pretty good contract and very moveable imo.

You can say all that....but...

Lots of reports have him available now and last year. Where are the offers/rumors of teams giving the Raps positive value...like filler+1st even? It's not out there. And I say this as someone who likes RJ.

But the offeres are not there now with 1.5 years left at a lower cost, more term and cap hit is going to be worse.

Plus, what team is offering him 30 million besides the Raps?

I guess I have a different read on most of those 'reports'.

If you break them down pretty much all of the rumours are more 'Raptors are looking for ways to improve the roster without trading Scottie', not 'Raptors are actively trying to get rid of IQ and/or RJ'. Even the Lewenberg 'report' from today basically breaks down into the Raptors having "exploratory conversations" with teams about possibilities.

I don't think the team is desperate to move off these guys, I think it's mainly media hype

[mihaic]

But again...if RJ is seen as a neutralish to bad contract now, him with more term and cap hit makes no sense unless you plan to never move him.

I'm not sure how much stock I put in to the 'RJ is a toxic asset' idea. He's been a good player by raw counting stats and advanced metrics in his time in Toronto, and he's really only some decent FT shooting away from positive shooting efficiency. A guy averaging 20/5/5 making $30 mil through his prime years (five year deal would cover age 27-31) is a pretty good contract and very moveable imo.

You can say all that....but...

Lots of reports have him available now and last year. Where are the offers/rumors of teams giving the Raps positive value...like filler+1st even? It's not out there. And I say this as someone who likes RJ.

But the offeres are not there now with 1.5 years left at a lower cost, more term and cap hit is going to be worse.

Plus, what team is offering him 30 million besides the Raps?

I agree, my guess is no team will be offering him >25M. Why wouldn't we take advantage of it. Personally I would have applied that strategy for IQ and Yak re signing too.