The Value of Tanking

[Reignman]

Unfortunately, if we do get a top 3 pick this year, there's no way BC will tank another year. It'll be like 06 all over again. he'll make a bunch of win now moves, and we'll be back to mediocrity. I bet BC feels that Andrea= Rivers/Gilchrist/Drummond.

The lockout will save us. Malkin and Crosby, here we come.

Word.

[Reignman]

One thing about tanking and building through the draft in Toronto that we have to consider is the fact that if we land a star player with a top three pick odds are he won't stay here for the rest of his career....

Unfortunely that has been the case from the beginning and I don't see that changing anytime soon.. We get to see a player blossom into a good player and then bolt, then repeat all over again... I don't think you can build a team in Toronto the conventional way, you have to use all available tools at your disposal to hopefully one day get respect for this city and franchise before your able to hold onto young star players...

So what you're saying is that star players don't want to stay in Toronto. Which I guess means no big Free Agent signings. So... drafting stars is no good because they'll leave, signing stars is not going to happen. Lets just fold the franchise.

The real fact is, winning keeps players/stars and attracts other ones. Drafting is our best bet at getting the first star and turning this ship around.

We (Toronto fans) are starting to believe the hype coming from the media that we lose all of our stars. We kept Vince and Bosh. The real problem is that once we get a star he always seems to leave right when that secondary star is about to develop (T-Mac with Vince, Vince with Bosh, Bosh with ... yet to be determined DD maybe).

Well I hope that wouldn't be the case, moving the team but if this continues for another 15 years it will happen..

In Toronto more than anywhere else we have to win fast when we land a star player in the draft and that takes away from what teams like to do. Which is drafting well for a few years landing a couple quality star young players... If we draft a star player in Toronto we don't have four years to tank and draft more quality players.. If we do the player we drafted wants no part of being in Toronto not only because he is in a different country but because we are losing as well... This is what usually ends up being our downfall, we draft a young star, the young star puts pressure on us to win now or he will leave and we end up ditchin the rebuild by giving out poor contracts for avg players in attempt to win.... So what do we do in our situation, its the million dollar question we have yet to anwser but one thing is for sure, building a winner here under these circumstances is not an easy thing to do...

We have to find a middle ground here, we have to continue to educate NBA players and media on what we have to offer here in Toronto, we have to continue to use all means possible to build a winner... We can't simply rely on the draft in Toronto, we have to trade for and sign young players as well, not avg known role players to poor contracts but rather developing young talent to decent contracts and hope it all comes together in time... Another option would be to draft a star player in the next draft and then package a bunch of our other assets for a star player who is already locked up long term... We have to continue to use the draft, free agency and the trade market only we have to be smarter in our choices and smarter in handing out large contracts....

Any way you slice it we are in a tough position to build a winner here, thats reality... As much as I like others would love to tank for three years and do nothing but draft top three talent until we have 2-3 stars on this team I don't think the players coming here have that patience and I don't think this city or MLSE has the patience in sitting back, losing and watchin a young sour star asking to be shipped out...

Maybe one fine day the stars will align and god himself will deliver a top three pick who wants nothing more than to play for Toronto his entire career but thats wishful thinking and unlikely to happen anytime soon...

That's just not true. Neither of VC or Bosh were the demanding types for their rookie deals. All our short term moves happened because MLSE wanted some playoff revenue. They made win now moves by trading picks and blowing capspace because they wanted to fill the stands (fans love trades no matter how bad they are for the long term) and they wanted playoff money.

The only guy who left here quickly because of the direction of the team was Damon and we really had no options because our roster was made up of other team's outcasts and we were stuck under some ridiculous expansion rules.

With VC/Bosh we had quite a few years to build the right way.

[mini]

TMMC... we don't need to tank for 3+ years. We are garbage this year (that's 1), next year will probably be a lockout or shortened season (that's 2). By that time we will have 2 high picks, plus Davis, plus DD, maybe Bargs/Weems, who knows about Alabi. We will also have Barbosa off our cap, Jose as an expiring, Jack could be easily traded.

This really is the 'perfect' time for this franchise to suck. We don't have a superstar to appease, we don't need to trade kids or sign vets to make a push because there is nothing to push for next year. Davis/DD/2 picks/Bargs will all be locked in with no chance of walking. We are in a pretty good position, not great, but good. MLSE may be worried about the bottom-line and making the $$$ but really, for the next couple of years, that isn't even a possibility.

Yes we need to change the way the franchise is perceived by players, but winning will do that. No matter how many information sessions you hold about our city/taxes/climate, no one will want to come here unless we are competitive. This lock-out/CBA expiring is a blessing for us. We can stockpile youth and picks without the pressure to win (because there will be no games). Plus, maybe we can buy-out a contract with no cap-hit in the next CBA.

Also, with no player movement for a possible 2 years due to the lockout, the FA market may be saturated with good players and not a lot of teams with flexibility.

[TMMC]

That's just not true. Neither of VC or Bosh were the demanding types for their rookie deals. All our short term moves happened because MLSE wanted some playoff revenue. They made win now moves by trading picks and blowing capspace because they wanted to fill the stands (fans love trades no matter how bad they are for the long term) and they wanted playoff money.

The only guy who left here quickly because of the direction of the team was Damon and we really had no options because our roster was made up of other team's outcasts and we were stuck under some ridiculous expansion rules.

With VC/Bosh we had quite a few years to build the right way.

Have to disagree, while VC and Bosh were quiet during their development period they were anything but queit once they arrived.... VC often said he wanted more part in the teams decisions, he wanted to see something for him to stick around, its why Grunwald went out and gave a washed Hakeem a big contract, AD, AW and various other players which ended up costin Glen his job and put us in cap hell... Bosh also only signed his second deal with us with the assurance we would focus on winning, he was behind and applauded almost every move BC made, he made sales pitches to Turk and was as happy as a pig in **** to get them.. He told management and us for that matter that what happened over his three year deal would determine if he stayed or not.... Both players once they reached their peak demanded winning and wanted no part of any rebuild....

Damon is also one yes, so is TMAC and the countless other draftee's who were never picked by uis who openly said they would rather not play here... Or the many free agents or players in trade talks who would rather not play here...

While i'd love to build through the draft and stock pile superstars its just not as easy as it sounds, especially when your team is in Toronto...

[Reignman]

That's just not true. Neither of VC or Bosh were the demanding types for their rookie deals. All our short term moves happened because MLSE wanted some playoff revenue. They made win now moves by trading picks and blowing capspace because they wanted to fill the stands (fans love trades no matter how bad they are for the long term) and they wanted playoff money.

The only guy who left here quickly because of the direction of the team was Damon and we really had no options because our roster was made up of other team's outcasts and we were stuck under some ridiculous expansion rules.

With VC/Bosh we had quite a few years to build the right way.

Have to disagree, while VC and Bosh were quiet during their development period they were anything but queit once they arrived.... VC often said he wanted more part in the teams decisions, he wanted to see something for him to stick around, its why Grunwald went out and gave a washed Hakeem a big contract, AD, AW and various other players which ended up costin Glen his job and put us in cap hell... Bosh also only signed his second deal with us with the assurance we would focus on winning, he was behind and applauded almost every move BC made, he made sales pitches to Turk and was as happy as a pig in **** to get them.. He told management and us for that matter that what happened over his three year deal would determine if he stayed or not.... Both players once they reached their peak demanded winning and wanted no part of any rebuild....

Damon is also one yes, so is TMAC and the countless other draftee's who were never picked by uis who openly said they would rather not play here... Or the many free agents or players in trade talks who would rather not play here...

While i'd love to build through the draft and stock pile superstars its just not as easy as it sounds, especially when your team is in Toronto...

If you need more than 3 years to rebuild your base you're not doing something right. As I said, this team can easily rebuild and it has absolutely nothing to do with the players. It's all about MLSE and their greed.

VC / Bosh never made any demands for the first few years in the league. Hell, the first time I heard VC make a demand was when he was re-upping with us and he wanted us to bring back AD/Alvin/JYD. So we had 4 years.

So let's say we draft Irving/Barnes, I highly doubt they'll start making any demands in their rookie deals. That's not the way it works. That's the window the Raps have to build a solid supporting cast and try to add another star. Luckily, we've already started accumulate the supporting cast so really we'll have a few years to add a 2nd star.

Irving/Barnes will be fine with it, the question is will MLSE be fine with it?

[mini]

So let's say we draft Irving/Barnes, I highly doubt they'll start making any demands in their rookie deals. That's not the way it works. That's the window the Raps have to build a solid supporting cast and try to add another star. Luckily, we've already started accumulate the supporting cast so really we'll have a few years to add a 2nd star.

Irving/Barnes will be fine with it, the question is will MLSE be fine with it?

I don't think that MLSE will have a choice. This season is a bust, next season may not exist. By that time we will be in full-on rebuild. After that, we should be 'going for it' anyway.

I pretty much agree with everything you are saying.

[jigga_man]

TMMC... we don't need to tank for 3+ years. We are garbage this year (that's 1), next year will probably be a lockout or shortened season (that's 2). By that time we will have 2 high picks, plus Davis, plus DD, maybe Bargs/Weems, who knows about Alabi. We will also have Barbosa off our cap, Jose as an expiring, Jack could be easily traded.

This really is the 'perfect' time for this franchise to suck. We don't have a superstar to appease, we don't need to trade kids or sign vets to make a push because there is nothing to push for next year. Davis/DD/2 picks/Bargs will all be locked in with no chance of walking. We are in a pretty good position, not great, but good. MLSE may be worried about the bottom-line and making the $$$ but really, for the next couple of years, that isn't even a possibility.

Yes we need to change the way the franchise is perceived by players, but winning will do that. No matter how many information sessions you hold about our city/taxes/climate, no one will want to come here unless we are competitive. This lock-out/CBA expiring is a blessing for us. We can stockpile youth and picks without the pressure to win (because there will be no games). Plus, maybe we can buy-out a contract with no cap-hit in the next CBA.

Also, with no player movement for a possible 2 years due to the lockout, the FA market may be saturated with good players and not a lot of teams with flexibility.

I just don't think that is realistic. i can't imagine a full year lockout. Maybe half a season at most. But one side is going to cave.

[TMMC]

If you need more than 3 years to rebuild your base you're not doing something right.

Well that depends when you start rebuilding and it depends on a little luck in a lottery.... You may waste an entire year in an attempt to get a star who is not in the draft, it may be a weak draft year... You may be the worst team in the league record wise and end up getting the 4th pick because the lottery balls didn't bounce your way and miss out on three stars in a strong draft year... Then in our case you may also draft a guy who doesn't want to be here and ends up being an anus....

There is several ways a rebuilding team intent on tankin for a star player could end up spiralling into a 4-5-6-7 year rebuild and never amounting to anything.... There is already people saying next years draft is weak outside maybe two players and even they are being questioned, then you have to hope we win the lottery which we have seen in the past is no guarantee for any team... We have already been part of a draft which was considered weak as well, we ended up winnin that one and selecting Bargnani.... I think people just assume if we suck we will win the lottery and get a superstar, not entirely true, this could end being a totally wasted year and next year we will be saying the same, lets tank again, mean while youngsters like Demar and Davis are thinking to themselfs "Get me the fack outta here"...

In many ways Bryan has gone about it the right way though, even though he has made some poor decisions in giving out contracts, he has kept this team entertaining all the while obtaining some young talent like Demar, Sonny, Amir, Ed, Soloman, Kleiza and Bargnani to go forward with... He has atleast given these young guys some hope of winning, some .500 seasons, some success along with the failures, something for fans to follow and MLSE to make money on... In Toronto you have to use all available tools to win, you have to be unconventional in your approach because of where we are and because players generally would rather not be here... Thats why I don't want him gone really because despite his failures there is some success in stock piling some young talent and hopefully speeding up any rebuild process, in a sense he has been rebuilding along the way of trying to win by drafting, signing and trading for young talent... He just has to stick with it longer and have patience instead of thinkin to big to fast and handing out big contracts. Then again without those big contracts and signings we probably don't have any sort of winning the past four years and therefore probably have even less respect league wide than we do now.... He has used a double edged approach, using all tools at his disposal and trying to make everyone content from players, ownership, coaches and the fans. Despite the backlash from some fans he has kept an eye on the future imo, he has just gone about it in an unconventional way and imo an unconventional way is the only way to have any success in Toronto...