Possible reasons for the Lowry S&T hold up (Powell, WCS from DAL for Dragic)

[biblast]

Guys are reading this all wrong right now...

At the moment, the Raptors have taking on 19m REAL dollars for a player we don't want so that Miami could keep their MLE for Tucker & not risk D.Robinson going out into the market as an UFA... This isn't 2k... Businesses don't just do a 19m going away favour for Kyle Lowry...

As of right now, Dragic is a 19m salary dump into what was OUR cap space... By NBA standards, teams are normally given a 1st Rd pick for every 15m-20m... As a result, Achiuwa IS the cost of taking on Dragic's 19m... Consequently, we have yet to see ANY compensation for Lowry.

100%

I imagine this is why Kyle was perfectly happy to stay with the Raptors last year and sit out. He maintained his value, got healthy and was able to get to his desired location for top dollar.

The question has to be asked was Toronto aware of this and were content to let it play out like this, or was it a total miscalculation from management? At the deadline you could have gotten a pick and prospect and not had any salary commitments going forward. If you knew Lowry's intentions and wanted to do right with him I can at least understand it (even if I don't agree with it), but if this was just incompetence in terms of getting the best assets back that is rough.

When the deal is official, I'm sure we'll know all the details but I don't think anyone anticipated such a long hold out.
That doesn't mean Masai and the FO didn't have any contingency in place which is keeping Dragic and flip him at the deadline. If that's the fall back option, you have to wonder if that was a smart move or not given the cap implications. Was this the best option ?

[Indeed]

Guys are reading this all wrong right now...

At the moment, the Raptors have taking on 19m REAL dollars for a player we don't want so that Miami could keep their MLE for Tucker & not risk D.Robinson going out into the market as an UFA... This isn't 2k... Businesses don't just do a 19m going away favour for Kyle Lowry...

As of right now, Dragic is a 19m salary dump into what was OUR cap space... By NBA standards, teams are normally given a 1st Rd pick for every 15m-20m... As a result, Achiuwa IS the cost of taking on Dragic's 19m... Consequently, we have yet to see ANY compensation for Lowry.

100%

I imagine this is why Kyle was perfectly happy to stay with the Raptors last year and sit out. He maintained his value, got healthy and was able to get to his desired location for top dollar.

The question has to be asked was Toronto aware of this and were content to let it play out like this, or was it a total miscalculation from management? At the deadline you could have gotten a pick and prospect and not had any salary commitments going forward. If you knew Lowry's intentions and wanted to do right with him I can at least understand it (even if I don't agree with it), but if this was just incompetence in terms of getting the best assets back that is rough.

The mis-calculation started even earlier. We are better being above the cap with Trent, so the trade of Powell wasn't the best scenario for us. But the biggest issue was letting Ibaka/Gasol goes. If Ibaka is undersized, we are even smaller right now.

[Mr.Raptorsingh]

Have the Raps acquired Tyrell Terry yet

[Skeezo]

Guys are reading this all wrong right now...

At the moment, the Raptors have taking on 19m REAL dollars for a player we don't want so that Miami could keep their MLE for Tucker & not risk D.Robinson going out into the market as an UFA... This isn't 2k... Businesses don't just do a 19m going away favour for Kyle Lowry...

As of right now, Dragic is a 19m salary dump into what was OUR cap space... By NBA standards, teams are normally given a 1st Rd pick for every 15m-20m... As a result, Achiuwa IS the cost of taking on Dragic's 19m... Consequently, we have yet to see ANY compensation for Lowry.

I don't think we get compensation for Lowry. He's an UFA. He chooses where he goes and at what price.

We do have a role to play if (a) Lowry says he wants to go to a "capped" team and (b) we would like to get SOMETHING as opposed to nothing, but our compensation is for financial facilitation and is in no way related to Lowry's value as a player. The greater the financial facilitation, the greater the compensation. The only reason we are getting "real" assets like Dragic and Precious as opposed to a conditional 2nd round pick is because Miami needs some real financial facilitation help here... and Masai sees an opportunity to benefit from it. Good on him.

Look at the compensation DeRozan and D.Graham have gotten in their S&T's ... The Raptors have EVERY bit as much leverage as those teams did, if Miami wanted to operate above the cap to keep RFA rights for Robinson and an MLE for Tucker...

[pharring]

Youre making it even more complicated my dude. Precious is compensation for Lowry. Extra compensation if they need to hold Dragic has been worked out.

Gonna laugh when Oladipo signs with us for the MLE. Screws Miami out of some assets when they could have used him in the S&T

I am not opposed to Oladipo at all and I wonder why his name is not being mentioned more. Yes, his quad was ruptured twice. But from what I have read the first fix was botched and the second fix should work. That said, I have also read that a lot of GMs think he is a "wait and see" in terms of becoming a mid-season pick up if he is healthy. Think Joakim Noah. But Olapido can sign right now for whatever amount is needed to make a deal work... so if his value is cratered to the point of mid-season flier for vet minimum, why not offer him something that makes the math work with a team option for next season.

[ItsDanger]

Masai getting a harsh lesson in Negotiations 101.

[Indeed]

Masai getting a harsh lesson in Negotiations 101.

Is it Ujiri? I really think MLSE has gave up winning and let Ujiri goes.

[douggood]

Guys are reading this all wrong right now...

At the moment, the Raptors have taking on 19m REAL dollars for a player we don't want so that Miami could keep their MLE for Tucker & not risk D.Robinson going out into the market as an UFA... This isn't 2k... Businesses don't just do a 19m going away favour for Kyle Lowry...

As of right now, Dragic is a 19m salary dump into what was OUR cap space... By NBA standards, teams are normally given a 1st Rd pick for every 15m-20m... As a result, Achiuwa IS the cost of taking on Dragic's 19m... Consequently, we have yet to see ANY compensation for Lowry.

dragic was 0 dollars to heat, raptors were the ones who chose to make him into a 19 mil contract.

the argument shouldn't be is it enough for kyle lowry

but is it enough return to give miami flexibility

and vice versa is it better to have 17 mil cap space or dragic achiuwa and mle.

Dude, I really don't care what perspective you want to look at it from other than the result, which is thus far, it's been a CRAP deal on the part of the Raptors unless their are some considerable draft assets coming back from Miami still.

well then you can book it as a crap deal because no other assets are coming from miami outside of a possible future 2nd.

but back to perspective, it does matter, gordan hayward didnt sign with hornets last year. boston traded him along with 2 seconds to charlotte.

when you are in a losing situation; celtics/raptors going to lose hayward/lowry for nothing, might as well get something crap for it in return.

2 summers ago gsw warriors traded KD and a 1st round pick for dangelo russell; in what world is that a fair trade? but gsw chose to get something for a player who was leaving anyways.

if you want to litigate the raptors should have traded him for pennies at the deadline, i will agree 100% with you on that, if you want to litigate the raptors should have gotten more compensation for giving Miami flexibility sure argue that.

but you cannot litigate that this is the return for Lowry; because prespective matters

[pharring]

Guys are reading this all wrong right now...

At the moment, the Raptors have taking on 19m REAL dollars for a player we don't want so that Miami could keep their MLE for Tucker & not risk D.Robinson going out into the market as an UFA... This isn't 2k... Businesses don't just do a 19m going away favour for Kyle Lowry...

As of right now, Dragic is a 19m salary dump into what was OUR cap space... By NBA standards, teams are normally given a 1st Rd pick for every 15m-20m... As a result, Achiuwa IS the cost of taking on Dragic's 19m... Consequently, we have yet to see ANY compensation for Lowry.

I don't think we get compensation for Lowry. He's an UFA. He chooses where he goes and at what price.

We do have a role to play if (a) Lowry says he wants to go to a "capped" team and (b) we would like to get SOMETHING as opposed to nothing, but our compensation is for financial facilitation and is in no way related to Lowry's value as a player. The greater the financial facilitation, the greater the compensation. The only reason we are getting "real" assets like Dragic and Precious as opposed to a conditional 2nd round pick is because Miami needs some real financial facilitation help here... and Masai sees an opportunity to benefit from it. Good on him.

Look at the compensation DeRozan and D.Graham have gotten in their S&T's ... The Raptors have EVERY bit as much leverage as those teams did, if Miami wanted to operate above the cap to keep RFA rights for Robinson and an MLE for Tucker...

Well, New Orleans and Chicago are getting pelted by commentators saying these S&T returns were kinda dumb. And Riley is most certainly not dumb. But I agree with you - leverage is clearly there. Question is how much leverage did Masai have when the deal was struck (i.e. before Dragic's option was exercised), because I have no idea if Masai would have known Miami's full plan. Also, if Kyle told Masai, "I'm going to Miami... get what you can if you want but I'm going to their cap space if you can't", then what was Masai supposed to do?

[Syd-TK3]

Doesn't look like we're getting anything for Dragic hopefully they atleast take KZ from miami

[TorontoRapsFan]

looks like what was left was for Oladipo's numbers getting worked out ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Indeed]

dragic was 0 dollars to heat, raptors were the ones who chose to make him into a 19 mil contract.

the argument shouldn't be is it enough for kyle lowry

but is it enough return to give miami flexibility

and vice versa is it better to have 17 mil cap space or dragic achiuwa and mle.

Dude, I really don't care what perspective you want to look at it from other than the result, which is thus far, it's been a CRAP deal on the part of the Raptors unless their are some considerable draft assets coming back from Miami still.

well then you can book it as a crap deal because no other assets are coming from miami outside of a possible future 2nd.

but back to perspective, it does matter, gordan hayward didnt sign with hornets last year. boston traded him along with 2 seconds to charlotte.

when you are in a losing situation; celtics/raptors going to lose hayward/lowry for nothing, might as well get something crap for it in return.

2 summers ago gsw warriors traded KD and a 1st round pick for dangelo russell; in what world is that a fair trade? but gsw chose to get something for a player who was leaving anyways.

if you want to litigate the raptors should have traded him for pennies at the deadline, i will agree 100% with you on that, if you want to litigate the raptors should have gotten more compensation for giving Miami flexibility sure argue that.

but you cannot litigate that this is the return for Lowry; because prespective matters

That 2nd round pick is basically end of the draft. Worst of Denver or Philly pretty much means in the 50s. I don't know if the pick is really something we are proud of.

[Mikistan]

looks like what was left was for Oladipo's numbers getting worked out ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I assume the CBA does not allow a sign and trade for a package with another sign and trade player in there

[pharring]

Youre making it even more complicated my dude. Precious is compensation for Lowry. Extra compensation if they need to hold Dragic has been worked out.

Gonna laugh when Oladipo signs with us for the MLE. Screws Miami out of some assets when they could have used him in the S&T

I am not opposed to Oladipo at all and I wonder why his name is not being mentioned more. Yes, his quad was ruptured twice. But from what I have read the first fix was botched and the second fix should work. That said, I have also read that a lot of GMs think he is a "wait and see" in terms of becoming a mid-season pick up if he is healthy. Think Joakim Noah. But Olapido can sign right now for whatever amount is needed to make a deal work... so if his value is cratered to the point of mid-season flier for vet minimum, why not offer him something that makes the math work with a team option for next season.

Never mind.
Rich get richer.
Sigh.

[douggood]

Guys are reading this all wrong right now...

At the moment, the Raptors have taking on 19m REAL dollars for a player we don't want so that Miami could keep their MLE for Tucker & not risk D.Robinson going out into the market as an UFA... This isn't 2k... Businesses don't just do a 19m going away favour for Kyle Lowry...

As of right now, Dragic is a 19m salary dump into what was OUR cap space... By NBA standards, teams are normally given a 1st Rd pick for every 15m-20m... As a result, Achiuwa IS the cost of taking on Dragic's 19m... Consequently, we have yet to see ANY compensation for Lowry.

I don't think we get compensation for Lowry. He's an UFA. He chooses where he goes and at what price.

We do have a role to play if (a) Lowry says he wants to go to a "capped" team and (b) we would like to get SOMETHING as opposed to nothing, but our compensation is for financial facilitation and is in no way related to Lowry's value as a player. The greater the financial facilitation, the greater the compensation. The only reason we are getting "real" assets like Dragic and Precious as opposed to a conditional 2nd round pick is because Miami needs some real financial facilitation help here... and Masai sees an opportunity to benefit from it. Good on him.

Look at the compensation DeRozan and D.Graham have gotten in their S&T's ... The Raptors have EVERY bit as much leverage as those teams did, if Miami wanted to operate above the cap to keep RFA rights for Robinson and an MLE for Tucker...

chicago spurs

dragic = thad young
aminu is a negative contract - 2 seconds for that
and future 1st = close to achiuwa

and spurs had 100x the leverage of the raptors and didnt get a killer deal; chicago had no chance at demar without spurs.

plus devonte grahm was a rfa, plus the pick is somewhat a fake pick trade. its protected pick just for one year, if it doesn't go this year it doesnt roll over.

[Indeed]

I don't think we get compensation for Lowry. He's an UFA. He chooses where he goes and at what price.

We do have a role to play if (a) Lowry says he wants to go to a "capped" team and (b) we would like to get SOMETHING as opposed to nothing, but our compensation is for financial facilitation and is in no way related to Lowry's value as a player. The greater the financial facilitation, the greater the compensation. The only reason we are getting "real" assets like Dragic and Precious as opposed to a conditional 2nd round pick is because Miami needs some real financial facilitation help here... and Masai sees an opportunity to benefit from it. Good on him.

Look at the compensation DeRozan and D.Graham have gotten in their S&T's ... The Raptors have EVERY bit as much leverage as those teams did, if Miami wanted to operate above the cap to keep RFA rights for Robinson and an MLE for Tucker...

Well, New Orleans and Chicago are getting pelted by commentators saying these S&T returns were kinda dumb. And Riley is most certainly not dumb. But I agree with you - leverage is clearly there. Question is how much leverage did Masai have when the deal was struck (i.e. before Dragic's option was exercised), because I have no idea if Masai would have known Miami's full plan. Also, if Kyle told Masai, "I'm going to Miami... get what you can if you want but I'm going to their cap space if you can't", then what was Masai supposed to do?

If you looked at the earlier conversation, Miami is getting all the benefits by doing S&T. Maimi would be the one who does not want to sign Lowry with cap space, as they cannot retain Tucker and add Morris. We are simply being used.

[pharring]

looks like what was left was for Oladipo's numbers getting worked out ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I assume the CBA does not allow a sign and trade for a package with another sign and trade player in there

You can double S&T... but there is nothing in the Shams update to suggest Oladipo's camp thinks he'll be anywhere but Miami for the next year. Rebuild value. Hit market next year.

Not sure how he rebuilds value riding the pine in Miami, but ok. Sun and no taxes. I get it.

[douggood]

looks like what was left was for Oladipo's numbers getting worked out ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I assume the CBA does not allow a sign and trade for a package with another sign and trade player in there

you can do multiple s&t in trades., lonzo ball was s&t traded yesterday for sato plus s&t garett temple
2 years ago s&t durant for s&t dangelo russell.

[Mikistan]

looks like what was left was for Oladipo's numbers getting worked out ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I assume the CBA does not allow a sign and trade for a package with another sign and trade player in there

you can do multiple s&t in trades., lonzo ball was s&t traded yesterday for sato plus s&t garett temple
2 years ago s&t durant for s&t dangelo russell.

Ah excellent thanks I remember one of the older CBA forcing s&t to be one offs

[douggood]

Look at the compensation DeRozan and D.Graham have gotten in their S&T's ... The Raptors have EVERY bit as much leverage as those teams did, if Miami wanted to operate above the cap to keep RFA rights for Robinson and an MLE for Tucker...

Well, New Orleans and Chicago are getting pelted by commentators saying these S&T returns were kinda dumb. And Riley is most certainly not dumb. But I agree with you - leverage is clearly there. Question is how much leverage did Masai have when the deal was struck (i.e. before Dragic's option was exercised), because I have no idea if Masai would have known Miami's full plan. Also, if Kyle told Masai, "I'm going to Miami... get what you can if you want but I'm going to their cap space if you can't", then what was Masai supposed to do?

If you looked at the earlier conversation, Miami is getting all the benefits by doing S&T. Maimi would be the one who does not want to sign Lowry with cap space, as they cannot retain Tucker and add Morris. We are simply being used.

by doing s&t miami got 3 things vs 2 things by not doing s&t

s&t route = Full MLE (used on tucker) + BAE (used on morris) + olidipo bird rights
free agent signing lowry = Keep achiuwa + room MLE (lets say use it on morris)