The too early Suggs vs. Barnes thread

[Clay Davis]

Will the Raps be the Spurs of 2013, 2014?

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[arbsn]

…. Yea, that’s what happened .. it wasn’t cuz they truly believed that Barnes was the better prospect ( has many did, some even thinking Barnes could go top 2) it was BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO BE CUTE

Yes this is what I think. When Suggs was unanimously a top 4 prospect and Masai and Co decide to "ZAG" and pick Barnes, that is being cute. They talked themselves into their guy. Very cute, you went your own way and picked your guy. I did not say whether they were right or wrong. But it is unreasonable to argue that Suggs was not a clear top 4 prospect when every expert, mock draft, etc had him in the top 4.

Lol.. cool story bro ..
have you tried … stomping your feet, pounding the table .. and yelling .” I wanted Suggs, I wanted Suggs, it’s not fair. Masai is a big stupid head “ ??

pretty sure youre the one getting mad about my opinion

[lolwut]

I wanted Suggs but Masai has been looking for his Giannis project. Imagine Barnes growing another inch or two and filling out. Pretty scary

I keep reading this and it makes no sense. They aren't even close to the same type of player.

They have similar early play styles. Prior to the NBA, Giannis was a big "point guard" over in Greece. Both are Swiss army knife type players with poor jumpshots. Keep in mind that Giannis used to look like this as a rookie:

[JJ From Deep]

Yes this is what I think. When Suggs was unanimously a top 4 prospect and Masai and Co decide to "ZAG" and pick Barnes, that is being cute. They talked themselves into their guy. Very cute, you went your own way and picked your guy. I did not say whether they were right or wrong. But it is unreasonable to argue that Suggs was not a clear top 4 prospect when every expert, mock draft, etc had him in the top 4.

Lol.. cool story bro ..
have you tried … stomping your feet, pounding the table .. and yelling .” I wanted Suggs, I wanted Suggs, it’s not fair. Masai is a big stupid head “ ??

pretty sure youre the one getting mad about my opinion

Remember when mock drafts had Darko Milicic as an undisputed top 5 pick in the greatest draft in nba history? Sometimes you need to "zag" when your own internal scouting believes another player will be superior, even when the "experts" and mock drafts tell you otherwise.

You can't place too much faith in analyst opinions. Each team has their own scouts and talent evaluators for a reason.

[djsunyc]

barnes should have 3 things to work on offensively...post up hook, elbow jumpers, set corner 3.

[OhCanada1091]

Yes this is what I think. When Suggs was unanimously a top 4 prospect and Masai and Co decide to "ZAG" and pick Barnes, that is being cute. They talked themselves into their guy. Very cute, you went your own way and picked your guy. I did not say whether they were right or wrong. But it is unreasonable to argue that Suggs was not a clear top 4 prospect when every expert, mock draft, etc had him in the top 4.

Lol.. cool story bro ..
have you tried … stomping your feet, pounding the table .. and yelling .” I wanted Suggs, I wanted Suggs, it’s not fair. Masai is a big stupid head “ ??

pretty sure youre the one getting mad about my opinion

Suggs was never the guy at 4. Thats something you allowed the media to trick you with. Its called indoctrination. Barnes was always the guy. His character and approach matches perfectly with the Raptors fundamental core. He fits in perfectly with VV, Siakam and OG. Gives them a happy Draymond Green, a Simmons that will work on his game.

Suggs needed to be the man and for the Raptors that leadership role is not something thats just handed off to a rookie. Its a process. Orlando can be that team. The team with a leader who has never led. Really the ones who screwed up are the Cavs. Barnes is already a better player than Mobley and is a better fit for that team. Suggs is a better fit for Orlando. Win win situation.

[OhCanada1091]

barnes should have 3 things to work on offensively...post up hook, elbow jumpers, set corner 3.

In my opinion the most important thing is the elbow jumper. I mean the three will come just with reps. He will get there. The post up is nice to have for when we get mismatches. But that elbow jumper, more specifically that pull up jumpshot makes him unstoppable. We won a championship on elbow jumpers basically.

If Barnes is a constant threat to pull up the league is looking at an MVP caliber player as he matures.

[OhCanada1091]

I wanted Suggs but Masai has been looking for his Giannis project. Imagine Barnes growing another inch or two and filling out. Pretty scary

I keep reading this and it makes no sense. They aren't even close to the same type of player.

They have similar early play styles. Prior to the NBA, Giannis was a big "point guard" over in Greece. Both are Swiss army knife type players with poor jumpshots. Keep in mind that Giannis used to look like this as a rookie:

Yeah I don't think they are really the same player. They have similar tools and advantages but different approaches. Maybe if they let Scottie take EPO's and get shredded and explosive. Giannis is just way bigger and more explosive than Scottie and relies on that to play bully ball. Scottie is by no means a finesse player but he relies on fundamentals and just making the right play, despite his athletic or size advantages. He's a student of the game, a real prodigy in the ball iq department. More like Draymond was at MSU.

[arbsn]

Lol.. cool story bro ..
have you tried … stomping your feet, pounding the table .. and yelling .” I wanted Suggs, I wanted Suggs, it’s not fair. Masai is a big stupid head “ ??

pretty sure youre the one getting mad about my opinion

Suggs was never the guy at 4. Thats something you allowed the media to trick you with. Its called indoctrination. Barnes was always the guy. His character and approach matches perfectly with the Raptors fundamental core. He fits in perfectly with VV, Siakam and OG. Gives them a happy Draymond Green, a Simmons that will work on his game.

Suggs needed to be the man and for the Raptors that leadership role is not something thats just handed off to a rookie. Its a process. Orlando can be that team. The team with a leader who has never led. Really the ones who screwed up are the Cavs. Barnes is already a better player than Mobley and is a better fit for that team. Suggs is a better fit for Orlando. Win win situation.

I never said I didn't like barnes.. He looks great, his IQ looks off the charts (making Draymond-like passes in the mid post) which is not really coachable whereas shooting and ball handling he can get better over time. If he can become a decent shooter and tighten up his handling I think he will be an all star level player

My biggest worry for Barnes is his Athleticism. Hes not marc gasol but he's also not Kawhi/OG (or even Draymond) level so I dont think he will be the next Scottie Pippen as some people have predicted. He will rely more on length and position which is fine.

I just see Suggs as a generational talent. He has solid IQ with underrated athleticism and incredible passion. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

[mulamutti]

What is our draft record for passing on the "obvious BPA" for "our pick"?

From what I can remember it has always bitten us in the ass regardless of the GM in power.

Ross over Drummond
Araujo over Iggy
Pascal over Skal
Bruno over Capela
Michael Bradley over Zach Randolph
Charlie V over Danny Granger
Joey Graham over Gerald Green
Bargnani over Aldridge

1/8 ain't bad lol.

Oooooof

Only pascal, Bruno and Ross are Masai era, I believe. Ross over Drummond is debatable. So I would say it’s more like 2 out of 3.

[navyblue]

patrick williams 4th pick last year from FSU as well, was also 6th man at FSU

college 22.5mpg 9.2ppg 4rbs 1 ast 1st 1blk .459fg% .320 3pt%
nba 27.9mpg 9.2ppg 4.6rbs 1.4ast .9stl .6blk .483fg% .391 3pt%

Barnes at fsu
24.8 mpg 10.3 ppg 4 rbs 4.1 ast 1.5 stl .5 blks .503fg% .275 3pt%

i can see barnes getting same amounts of minutes as patrick wiliams 28-30mpg
put up 12ppg 6rbs 4ast

[Johnny Bball]

I wanted Suggs but Masai has been looking for his Giannis project. Imagine Barnes growing another inch or two and filling out. Pretty scary

I keep reading this and it makes no sense. They aren't even close to the same type of player.

They have similar early play styles. Prior to the NBA, Giannis was a big "point guard" over in Greece. Both are Swiss army knife type players with poor jumpshots. Keep in mind that Giannis used to look like this as a rookie:

GA was a to the rim player that benefitted greatly in transition and when attacking the rim. Barnes is not any of that and is not fast in the open court like GA, and is a far better distributor. They are not the same player at all. The comparison is not a good one at all. I can't say seeing what GA looked like maters much. It really shouldn't rely on how they look/physical dimensions.

And I'm going to guess Barnes was a better shooter even.

[C_Money]

People comparing him to Giannis, smh. I could tell after 1 summer league game he’s never going to reach that level. He doesn’t have the athleticism.

[Basketball_Jones]

People comparing him to Giannis, smh. I could tell after 1 summer league game he’s never going to reach that level. He doesn’t have the athleticism.

Yeah, I hilariously saw it first play when he couldn’t finish that alley pop. He’s more of a cross between Dray and Siakam. Hopefully a version better then them.

[nizaam]

I guess another thing theres just way too many good point guards in the league. Dennis Schroder only got 5.9 mil. Lonzo ball dumped around like nothing. Same with Fultz and Westbrook. Toronto could let Lowry walk because we have FVV and Flynn. These guys grow on trees now and can be signed easily in an off season.

None of those guys you listed are good PGs, except maybe Lonzo (who's just decent). The list of good PGs really isn't that long:

Steph
Dame
Trae
Lowry
CP3

And all of them except Trae are over 30.

so FVV and Scroeder arent good? If Suggs is nearly as good as either of them I think Orlando is ecstatic. CP3, Steph, Lowry and possibly Dame as well are hall of famers and MVP canditates so if thats your expectation I wouldnt bet on Suggs being that.

[Westside Gunn]

the giannis comparison is only coming from a combination of skin color, broken jumper and length

i see no resemblance in playing styles at all

[WetLikeWater]

I wanted Suggs but Masai has been looking for his Giannis project. Imagine Barnes growing another inch or two and filling out. Pretty scary

I keep reading this and it makes no sense. They aren't even close to the same type of player.

They have similar early play styles. Prior to the NBA, Giannis was a big "point guard" over in Greece. Both are Swiss army knife type players with poor jumpshots. Keep in mind that Giannis used to look like this as a rookie:

why are people comparing Barnes to Greek because I'm pretty damn sure Greek had a way better shooting form in his rookie year plus he was way faster too

he shot at 2:20

Watch on YouTube

[lolwut]

I keep reading this and it makes no sense. They aren't even close to the same type of player.

They have similar early play styles. Prior to the NBA, Giannis was a big "point guard" over in Greece. Both are Swiss army knife type players with poor jumpshots. Keep in mind that Giannis used to look like this as a rookie:

Spoiler:

GA was a to the rim player that benefitted greatly in transition and when attacking the rim. Barnes is not any of that and is not fast in the open court like GA, and is a far better distributor. They are not the same player at all. The comparison is not a good one at all. I can't say seeing what GA looked like maters much. It really shouldn't rely on how they look/physical dimensions.

And I'm going to guess Barnes was a better shooter even.

My point was not that they're the same player. It was that they both had aspirations to be big point guards, and they started with shaky jumpshots. They're similar in that regard, but that doesn't mean they were the same player, or that Barnes will follow a similar career trajectory. Giannis also had a brief stint running PG in Milwaukee before he bulked up and started playing bully ball.

[Raps in 4]

I guess another thing theres just way too many good point guards in the league. Dennis Schroder only got 5.9 mil. Lonzo ball dumped around like nothing. Same with Fultz and Westbrook. Toronto could let Lowry walk because we have FVV and Flynn. These guys grow on trees now and can be signed easily in an off season.

None of those guys you listed are good PGs, except maybe Lonzo (who's just decent). The list of good PGs really isn't that long:

Steph
Dame
Trae
Lowry
CP3

And all of them except Trae are over 30.

so FVV and Scroeder arent good? If Suggs is nearly as good as either of them I think Orlando is ecstatic. CP3, Steph, Lowry and possibly Dame as well are hall of famers and MVP canditates so if thats your expectation I wouldnt bet on Suggs being that.

I would certainly expect the 4th overall pick to be better than those guys. Suggs is taller and more athletic than FVV. He easily has the potential to be better (he's already a better passer).

[mademan]

Barnes to Giannis isnt a great comparison. I guess he's a smaller, less explosive Giannis? But thats what makes Giannis special, his size and explosion at that size. If he becomes a better ball handling/better scoring Draymond Green, thats a superstar impact player and that should be his goal.

Suggs comparisons are also running wild. Paul? Roy? Those guys are refined skill personified. That's not Suggs. He doesnt even have the same body type as either which makes the comparisons even more ridiculous. He should be looked at as a less athletic Westbrook but with the same tenacity and a higher BBIQ. And if thats what he becomes, thats also a superstar impact guy

Im not sure if either will hit those ceilings, but those comparisons at least make sense