Summer League Thread Part 4: Aug 14th Charlotte @7pm TSN2

[Psubs]

How do you see Wainright 2 games into the Summer League?
From our team, 7th to 9th rotation guy? 10th to 12th rotation guy?

Stanley Johnson spot.

[Backcountry]

I don't care who wins tonight, I just want to see Barnes and Green going 1-on-1. This would be a good test for Barnes, plus fun to watch. As far as Sengun, I'd still like to see what this Mahmoud kid has. They both played overseas, both in men's leagues, and Mahmoud apparently had a decent game on Monday. So put Mahmoud on Sengun and Barnes on Green and let the rest play itself out.

[Mikistan]

I thought David Johnson looked TERRIBLE, like Bruno Cabocolo bad. Barnes was very underwhelming and looked like a replacement player out there. Getting nervous here, not gonna lie.

It's only 2 summer league games, but Suggs is obviously better than Barnes at this point. If a 4th pick ceiling is Draymond Green, we have failed this draft big time.

You don't know what Barnes ceiling is

[Anticon]

You not understanding the pick, doesn’t make it the wrong pick.

You also thinking its a bad pick is not great rationale if it’s based on SL play. Our scouts are pretty good at their job and projecting what players will be down the road based on whatever criteria they use.

You saying you don’t understand the pick assumes you know what a 19 year old Scottie Barnes will be when he’s 24-25 over the front office who has pretty good credibility. I don’t think you can draw that conclusion tbh.

Frankly the history of Raptors picks suggests the opposite. The guys people didn't understand -Villanueva, Hoffa, etc. - were because they weren't obviously the best players available. When we picked that way - like DeRozan - people were excited and got what management was doing.

Barnes looks fine to me. But he was not clearly the obvious player and its wishful thinking to assume he will become that.

Management drafted him because they are more focused on the physical profile of guys than their actual play. That to me is a fine choice later in the draft but a real risk early. So I don't think they've earned deferrence on their criteria.

Nice try. I thought for sure Suggs was BPA. Raps though look at these evaluations from every conceivable angle. M+B's body of work from scouting , drafting and development is such that mere mentioning Hoffa or Araujo or implying their criteria is flawed is absolute crazy talk. So many analysts were high on Barnes that saying Raps were alone in some flawed criteria matrix is not just b.s. it is reactionary throwing sh at the wall b.s.

They have no track record for lottery picks, besides Poetl. So there is nothing to support deferring to their expertise and accomplishments.

We know they can develop late first rounders, second rounders and undrafted players. We don't know if they have any skill in the lottery.

And when they have an obvious bias towards a certain kind of player and against another, it's fair to be critical. This is not a Hoffa situation in that Barnes is good, but it very much is in that a currently more impactful player was on the board.

This is also not about Barnes per se; if we picked at 5 or 6 we wouldn't be having this discussion, because there is a good case Barnes was the best choice at that point.

Whether other teams would have made the same pick is irrelevant to whether the Raptors had a flawed process is making theirs.

[Jay_Hawk]

Obviously not a great game for Barnes, but I did notice he started limping around the second quarter or so. If he was hurt, it wouldn't surprise me if he's the type to try and play through the pain.

Not trying to make excuses for the kid, just wanted to point that out.

[MixxSRC]

Watch on YouTube

He starts finishing those and he'll be tough. He's getting to the rim now with 3 point shot he'll be a nightmare.

[Raps in 4]

I thought David Johnson looked TERRIBLE, like Bruno Cabocolo bad. Barnes was very underwhelming and looked like a replacement player out there. Getting nervous here, not gonna lie.

It's only 2 summer league games, but Suggs is obviously better than Barnes at this point. If a 4th pick ceiling is Draymond Green, we have failed this draft big time.

We always knew Suggs was going to be a better player coming into the league. Barnes is probably the most raw prospect out of the top-5. It'll likely be at least 2-3 years before he becomes a productive player.

[Oakvillehoops]

I thought David Johnson looked TERRIBLE, like Bruno Cabocolo bad. Barnes was very underwhelming and looked like a replacement player out there. Getting nervous here, not gonna lie.

It's only 2 summer league games, but Suggs is obviously better than Barnes at this point. If a 4th pick ceiling is Draymond Green, we have failed this draft big time.

We always knew Suggs was going to be a better player coming into the league. Barnes is probably the most raw prospect out of the top-5. It'll likely be at least 2-3 years before he becomes a productive player.

Yup Draymond belong as low first round picks. I would rather have drafted a boom or bust potentially dominant offensive player with this pick. It’s not hard to create great defenders. Offends is a natural gift

[anotherhomer]

Ya, very risky pick

[tdotrep2]

Watch on YouTube

He starts finishing those and he'll be tough. He's getting to the rim now with 3 point shot he'll be a nightmare.

he looks like a baby giannis

[Dalek]

I thought David Johnson looked TERRIBLE, like Bruno Cabocolo bad. Barnes was very underwhelming and looked like a replacement player out there. Getting nervous here, not gonna lie.

I wouldn't worry. I think Toronto focuses so much of their practice on defensive principles that these guys are overwhelmed a couple days in, like every non-veteran player who come here. Everyone. I mean everyone struggles with our endless see of rotations, help responsibilities, expectations on multi-contest/shows etc. Mutombo said it best, that "we do things differently than most teams."

For instance, I am hard on Freddie Gillespie because he literally looks like he misplaced his ACLs when jumping, but then you see the locked in multi-effort approach on d. He is out on perimeter, rotating back to his man and contesting at the rim every possession.

Read on Twitter

Out on the perimeter then rotating across court weakside to shut down the lane.

Read on Twitter

He had half a short season with our system, and he is a high IQ defensive player. Guys like Barnes and Johnson are two-three days in.

The offense look so bad because they don't really have any sets being run at this stage. They just expect defense to lead to transition offense. Mutombo said as much. I don't think they even care about winning these games to be honest - just playing the right way.

You compare it with Golden State who has real shooters on court and are just gunning. It is a stark difference in approach. The Warriors were all lets have fun and entertain the kids, while the Raptors are like this is an extended practice.

[ontnut]

Just because someone is a project & raw doesn't mean they don't deserve to go high. Players are usually ranked on their perceived potential

If Barnes hits, you basically got a player who is the exact archetype of the future. 6'9 playmaker that can cover all positions. That's why he went #4.

Guys like Suggs, Sengun, Jalen Johnson, Bouknight etc WILL look better than Scottie on most nights this season

Save yourself the headache and don't meltdown when Barnes has an unproductive night while some other rookie just popped off for 20.

usually you go for a more sure player at #4 esp if they are more ready players

I'd argue the exact opposite. When you do get to draft at the top of the draft, you should draft the guy you think has the highest ceiling, not the "more sure player". You draft the NBA-ready player towards the end of the lotto/draft, because it's unlikely anyone you draft there has a high enough ceiling to be a star.

[raptor jesus]

18 FGAs in Game 1 followed up by 12 FTAs in Game 2. There are going to be ups and downs, but if Barnes remains this aggressive looking for his own shot, then I feel a lot better about his long term outlook as a higher usage guy. I'd be more worried if he was passive.

[BoyzNTheHood]

This board is going to be unbearable the next few months. People really can't see the bigger picture. The Barnes pick is not for today, it's for tomorrow. You can't expect this kid to come in and play as well as a Jalen Suggs. Suggs was the lump sum payment where it's all ready to go into your account from day 1, but Barnes is the long term stock where it grows over time into a massive beast of an investment.

If developed properly the idea is that you come out with a better player in the long run. Guys like Giannis are why you pick guys like Barnes. There were MUCH better players in the first 2-3 years of Giannis' career who were picked in his draft class. It's the long game people!! Sit back, relax and send all of your positive energy to Scottie.

[ontnut]

I want to sit down with Masai, order a couple beers and have him explain that pick to me. Because I don’t understand it. There must be something that happened behind the scenes that we don’t know about.

I think Bobby has been pretty candid about it. They're looking for size, switchable guys. He's mentioned many times that the most valuable players in the league are the big wings. I think we joke about it a lot here, but I do believe they're looking for an inefficiency in the league, and are trying to be the first to exploit it - meaning, having a team full of these big wings that can all defend/handle/distribute etc. When you have a full team of that and then can trade one or two to plop in a superstar, I think they believe that is a recipe to run other teams off the court en route to a championship. This is of course just my interpretation of their interviews so far.

[WetLikeWater]

It's only 2 summer league games, but Suggs is obviously better than Barnes at this point. If a 4th pick ceiling is Draymond Green, we have failed this draft big time.

We always knew Suggs was going to be a better player coming into the league. Barnes is probably the most raw prospect out of the top-5. It'll likely be at least 2-3 years before he becomes a productive player.

Yup Draymond belong as low first round picks. I would rather have drafted a boom or bust potentially dominant offensive player with this pick. It’s not hard to create great defenders. Offends is a natural gift

Tell that to kawhi when he entered the league

[BBallInSight]

I guess the ball handling of Flynn (and Banton?) are better fit to bring the ball up for initiating the offense (Barnes lost the ball on his post up). However, none of them are point guards in setting up plays for Barnes.

Meanwhile, the lack of shooting really hurt our spacing. I think David Johnson is really below average on both end, while Banton was good in team defense (alright against summer league in man defense). As for playing Barnes with our starters, he can probably defend (still need some adjustment against man defense), but the spacing with VanVleet and Dragic would be better (I see Dragic who can setup plays instead of Trent or Flynn).

As for his development, I am not surprised corner 3 is his role in the first year (free throw, against closeout, pullup, etc.), and based on the development of OG, we may develop his finishing at rim first (missing a lot of gimme, and lack the soft touch), before he can do more with the ball.

I hope we are not developing another OG with that development regiment. We should mold Barnes as a Giannis and not a OG… IMO Barnes should be developed as a big PG, take advantage of his size against 6’6 and below opponents. What’s the point of playing him as a SF/PF where he can’t take advantage using his size against guys who are similar in height/weight?

Bobby said in his interview that they are developing Barnes to be a playoff forward who can defend, handle, pass and score which to me is like Siakam.

In the interim Bobby said he would be a defender and ball mover. Obviously with FVV, Siakam, OG they don't think we need a primary. Scottie will fill a role to be a defensive chaos creator. I just hope he plays with non bench guys too.

You want a forward type, so you draft a long player with a point-guard mentality? I don't get it.

[Dennis 37]

you should see the Magic board - they are laughing at this forum for being ripe with dissent and having a mental disorder for comparing Suggs and Barnes.

That Orlando made no effort to trade up to get Suggs, means they would probably be just as happy with Barnes too.

Masai and Weltman scouted Barnes together at the combine. He may have gotten a sense of Masai's excitement and thought he was likely to draft him.

Doesn't sound like Masai to show his hand.

[duppyy]

We always knew Suggs was going to be a better player coming into the league. Barnes is probably the most raw prospect out of the top-5. It'll likely be at least 2-3 years before he becomes a productive player.

Yup Draymond belong as low first round picks. I would rather have drafted a boom or bust potentially dominant offensive player with this pick. It’s not hard to create great defenders. Offends is a natural gift

Tell that to kawhi when he entered the league

It's insane to say its not hard to create great defenders. The best defenders in the league were already good defenders in college. Defense is a natural gift.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

How do you see Wainright 2 games into the Summer League?
From our team, 7th to 9th rotation guy? 10th to 12th rotation guy?

defender and corner 3 guy. I think thats his role here.

1. Flynn
2. GTJ
3. OG
4. Siakam
5. Precious
6. Flynn
7. Dragic
8. Barnes
9. Boucher
10. Birch
11. Banton
12. Yuta
13. Gillespie
14. Wainright
15. Dekker
16. Johnson (2W)
17. Champagnie (2W)


Banton looked better overall - can see why they like this kid - definitely going to get a roster spot vs Johnson needs more work, as I thought he did from the first game as well and will begin the season on the 905 instead with a 2way.