Official Bargnani Discussion Thread

[Harry Palmer]

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lol. Shame the Jazz fans and the organization as a whole don't share your sentiment.

Yes, I too noted where they failed to take out that front page add admitting their error.

[emfive]

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At some point, Eddy Curry, Steve Francis, Derrick Coleman, Kwame Brown, Michael Olawakandi, and any other guy who we now see as representing the inherent whole of their problem were the youngest guys on their team, many of them much younger than Bargs.

So you think it would have helped them to not have them accountable? Were they less the problem with themselves then then they are now?

If Bargs were a fresh from HS teen ok, I could see the point to a degree. But he is into his second season as an NBA pro, his 4th or whatever as a pro in general, and is the same age as the guy who lead the Cavs to the Finals was last year, the same age as Hakeem was when he lead the Rockets to the Finals, the same age as T-Mac was when he lead the league in scoring, the same age as MJ was when he lead the league in scoring, the same age Vince Carter was when he was easily our best player, the same age as Damon was when he was ROY and team leader, the same age as Moses Malone was when he put up 20/15, a year older than Dwight Howard who is in the MVP discussion, a year older than Chris Paul who is in the MVP discussion, the same age as Kobe when he put up 29/6/5 on route to a championship, the same as as Shaq when he put up 30/12 en route to leading the Magic to the Finals, the same age as Dirk was when he put up 22/9 while leading the Mavs to the 4th best record in the NBA, and the same age as Chris Bosh was LAST YEAR.

In short: he's NOT that young by NBA standards.

Well I cannot disagree with you there either. I am suggesting though, that this problem goes beyond Bargs.

[emfive]

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Yes, I too noted where they failed to take out that front page add admitting their error.

It is difficult to reamain angry with you Harry. But I have told you before that charm does get you into trouble.

[The_Hater]

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Yet in the long run, I would bet that many coaches would prefer to have Deron on the floor in a playoff game.

I think that you're dead wrong. Deron is a nice player and certainly has caught a lot of positive buzz based on last season's playoffs but Paul is going to be one of the best PG's of all time.

Are people really missing out on how utterly amazing Chris Paul is playing right now? Hasn't he clearly put all this Deron Williams talk to bed? He's better on both sides of the ball and in just about every aspect of the game. And yes, that does include shooting now.

Chris Paul is the best PG in the league right now. Better than Nash, better than Billups and Parker. Certainly better than Jason Kidd. And he's only 22 years old. We're watching an all-time great here and everyone appears to be missing the boat.

[Harry Palmer]

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Well I cannot disagree with you there either. I am suggesting though, that this problem goes beyond Bargs.

I think we can all agree that their might be secondary issues which make a player's weaknesses more impactive, but I always find it somewhat puzzling when people act as though the player himself is anything but the far and away primary cause. It's always worth something of a laugh when apologist (not you, btw) will sort of grudgingly concede that the player might bear some responsibility.

[emfive]

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I guess we'll see. IMO Paul is clearly better, always was, and only his being hurt last year while Deron played great (admitedly better than I thought he would be) in any way clouded the issue at all which is returning to normal with both healthy this year.

Every GM has been looking for that oversized PG. It has been the Holy Grail of Bball. Remember when Jalen Rose was touted as a PG. Perhaps this draft's Rose will turn out.

[emfive]

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I think we can all agree that their might be secondary issues which make a player's weaknesses more impactive, but I always find it somewhat puzzling when people act as though the player himself is anything but the far and away primary cause. It's always worth something of a laugh when apologist (not you, btw) will sort of grudgingly concede that the player might bear some responsibility.

True. Did you find it as interesting as I did when Sam commented on rebounding as the team's number 1 issue? I am waiting to see what is done.

[Harry Palmer]

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Every GM has been looking for that oversized PG. It has been the Holy Grail of Bball. Remember when Jalen Rose was touted as a PG. Perhaps this draft's Rose will turn out.

I go so back and forth on Derrick Rose. Sometimes I see Jay Williams, sometimes I see the next great big guard.

[The Notic]

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At some point, Eddy Curry, Steve Francis, Derrick Coleman, Kwame Brown, Michael Olawakandi, and any other guy who we now see as representing the inherent whole of their problem were the youngest guys on their team, many of them much younger than Bargs.

So you think it would have helped them to not have them accountable? Were they less the problem with themselves then then they are now?

If Bargs were a fresh from HS teen ok, I could see the point to a degree. But he is into his second season as an NBA pro, his 4th or whatever as a pro in general, and is the same age as the guy who lead the Cavs to the
Finals was last year, the same age as Hakeem was when he lead the Rockets to the Finals, the same age as T-Mac was when he lead the league in scoring, the same age as MJ was when he lead the league in scoring, the same age Vince Carter was when he was easily our best player, the same age as Damon was when he was ROY and team leader, the same age as Moses Malone was when he put up 20/15, a year older than Dwight Howard who is in the MVP discussion, a year older than Chris Paul who is in the MVP discussion, the same age as Kobe when he put up 29/6/5 on route to a championship, the same as as Shaq when he put up 30/12 en route to leading the Magic to the Finals, the same age as Dirk was when he put up 22/9 while leading the Mavs to the 4th best record in the NBA, and the same age as Chris Bosh was LAST YEAR.

In short: he's NOT that young by NBA standards.

The same age Jermain O'neal was averaging 4 points and 3 rebounds. Wait, Damnit!

[The_Hater]

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Every GM has been looking for that oversized PG. It has been the Holy Grail of Bball. Remember when Jalen Rose was touted as a PG. Perhaps this draft's Rose will turn out.

I think for awhile, everybody was looking for the next Magic Johnson. Heck, even former Raptor SF Walt 'the Wizard' Williams was given that 'next Magic' label coming out of college. You also used to see 'the next Bird' clones being drafted too high and they were replaced by 'the next Jordan' and 'the next Shaq' clones in the 90's.

I think that GM's are over the Magic thing now and quicker, undersized PG's are back in vogue. Or else the figured out that Magic was a fluke that will never be duplicated.

[The_Hater]

I go so back and forth on Derrick Rose. Sometimes I see Jay Williams, sometimes I see the next great big guard.

I definitely like Rose better than Mayo. Better head, better PG skills, 2 years younger. But I've only seen them each play twice each.

I think that Rose 'gets it' and will be good but I also think that his hype was a little overstated. I don't quite see him being on a Kidd/Paul level.

[The Notic]

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Yes, I too noted where they failed to take out that front page add admitting their error.

It's a real shame their fans couldn't group their money together to accomplish this.

I'm also sure you were a big proponent of the Andrew Bogut pick over the Andrew Bynum pick seeing as how Bogut was the consensus #1 pick for almost the whole season whereas Bynum was simply an "upstart".

[Harry Palmer]

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True. Did you find it as interesting as I did when Sam commented on rebounding as the team's number 1 issue? I am waiting to see what is done.

I mostly take what a coach says with a grain of salt. He might turn around and say the opposite next week. I DO think his comment falls in line with how he and most coaches see the game, but I don't necessarily think that that is the motivation for most comments people involved in pro sports make. It might be trying to motivate Bargs, send a message to BC, or it might be trying to motivate AP or whoever or none of the above, or whatever.

In other words, there are so many sporadic agendas at play when a coach or GM speaks to the press that the only ones I take very seriously are the sort of 'statement against interests' type.

But assuming he meant what he said as it sounded, I doubt much will be done. That's the primary issue as I see it: I don't think the way the team is constructed allows for much improvement in those areas IF Bargs and Bosh are gonna be our 2 stars going forward at the 4/5, and I don't think Bargs has the requisite abilities to greatly improve on his weaknesses enough to make them non-weaknesses. I Do agree that his attitude upon closer inspection has been worse than I had thought, and I suppose in a weird way that gives a glimmer of hope that it might be more up to him then I thought, but on the other hand, I don't ever remember a player who didn't want it on his rookie contract getting anything but worse as time went on.

[Harry Palmer]

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It's a real shame their fans couldn't group their money together to accomplish this.

I'm also sure you were a big proponent of the Andrew Bogut pick over the Andrew Bynum pick seeing as how Bogut was the consensus #1 pick for almost the whole season whereas Bynum was simply an "upstart".

Actually, my personal wants for us for that draft were:

1) Trade up for Paul.
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.
.
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.

2) Stay where we were and take Bynum and Green.

I always liked Bynum.

[The Notic]

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I go so back and forth on Derrick Rose. Sometimes I see Jay Williams, sometimes I see the next great big guard.

Actually, if you look at where he's projected (Top 5 in a Big lacking draft), his strengths (size, strength, speed, explosion), his weaknesses (shooting, passing), he has Antonio Daniels written all over him.

[Harry Palmer]

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The same age Jermain O'neal was averaging 4 points and 3 rebounds. Wait, Damnit!

And 20 years younger than Satchel Paige as a rookie! Let's give him 20 years, because the exception somehow becomes the standard!!!

(And actually, at 22, JO was putting up 13/10. Er, darnit.)

[Harry Palmer]

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Actually, if you look at where he's projected (Top 5 in a Big lacking draft), his strengths (size, strength, speed, explosion), his weaknesses (shooting, passing), he has Antonio Daniels written all over him.

Yeah, I've thought of him, too. But he also has some smaller Penny in him. I need to see him more.

[Harry Palmer]

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I definitely like Rose better than Mayo. Better head, better PG skills, 2 years younger. But I've only seen them each play twice each.

I think that Rose 'gets it' and will be good but I also think that his hype was a little overstated. I don't quite see him being on a Kidd/Paul level.

I need to see him more. I am always wary when a guy goes from being a concern re: 'true point' to 'getting it' in one year. I mean, sometimes it happens, but it always leaves me feeling a little bit on shaky ground.

[The Notic]

Actually, my personal wants for us for that draft were:

1) Trade up for Paul.
.
.
.
.
.

2) Stay where we were and take Bynum and Green.

I always liked Bynum.

But Bynum is the very definition of an "upstart" player. His excellent showing in those high school star-studded games is what eventually propelled him to a lottery pick. In fact, that was probably the most dangerous pick in the whole first round taking into account position picked, experience, attitude, and chance for being a complete, utter bust.

Not taking into account it was pretty much mandatory that he lose weight to every be a good player in this league (which he did, luckily).

[PharoaheMonch]

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Every GM has been looking for that oversized PG. It has been the Holy Grail of Bball. Remember when Jalen Rose was touted as a PG. Perhaps this draft's Rose will turn out.

Paul >> Deron, and has always been, always will be. Deron is really really good, but Paul is just better. When will people realize that Sloan's system is pretty much custom built for Deron?