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Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II

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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#281 » by Indeed » Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:58 pm

ranger001 wrote:
Indeed wrote:Did you read the argument from Fairview and others on why we are only losing money last season, but not in the previous years?

And did you read the previous argument on why players don't get profit when the team got sold? If they are not entitled to, why they are responsible for paying off the arena loan, where players pay for it and not getting a piece back?

The owners lost money last year also.

And again, the players are employees not shareholders. Employees are not entitled to a share of the profits when the owners make a profit. If they want to be shareholders thats fine but then they lose their guaranteed salaries which they would never accept.

If you employer sells a building and makes a profit do you get a share? If your employer takes a loss do you take a loss also?


Then, why are you asking your employee to pay for the building and etc?
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#282 » by ranger001 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:05 pm

Indeed wrote:
ranger001 wrote:
Indeed wrote:Did you read the argument from Fairview and others on why we are only losing money last season, but not in the previous years?

And did you read the previous argument on why players don't get profit when the team got sold? If they are not entitled to, why they are responsible for paying off the arena loan, where players pay for it and not getting a piece back?

The owners lost money last year also.

And again, the players are employees not shareholders. Employees are not entitled to a share of the profits when the owners make a profit. If they want to be shareholders thats fine but then they lose their guaranteed salaries which they would never accept.

If you employer sells a building and makes a profit do you get a share? If your employer takes a loss do you take a loss also?


Then, why are you asking your employee to pay for the building and etc?

They are not paying for the building directly, they are getting a cut in salary.

When an employer has increased expenses they have the option to either reduce salaries or they cut staff. This is how the world works if you dont know.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#283 » by Indeed » Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:13 pm

ranger001 wrote:
Indeed wrote:
ranger001 wrote:The owners lost money last year also.

And again, the players are employees not shareholders. Employees are not entitled to a share of the profits when the owners make a profit. If they want to be shareholders thats fine but then they lose their guaranteed salaries which they would never accept.

If you employer sells a building and makes a profit do you get a share? If your employer takes a loss do you take a loss also?


Then, why are you asking your employee to pay for the building and etc?

They are not paying for the building directly, they are getting a cut in salary.

When an employer has increased expenses they have the option to either reduce salaries or they cut staff. This is how the world works if you dont know.


This is how the world works if you are paying for business operation costs, but not for personal gain. Not for millions to hire your relative on an internal position, no?

Please read the previous conversation, read some of those articles where they provide more information and numbers:

floppymoose wrote:If they had $300 million in losses last year (all of a sudden, after a nice run of profitability until - surprise! - it's CBA negotiating time) and then the next CBA gives them $300 million more (7% of the BRI) why should the values go up? The league will be breaking even.

It's amazing that so few ever see the contradictions. It's Emperor's New Clothes all over again!

Meanwhile, Tom Ziller beats up on Simmons:
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2011/10/24/ ... dship-hook
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#284 » by ranger001 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:19 pm

Indeed wrote:This is how the world works if you are paying for business operation costs, but not for personal gain. Not for millions to hire your relative on an internal position, no?

What? Private businesses hire their relatives all the time. You think that is an nba thing?

Please read the previous conversation, read some of those articles where they provide more information and numbers:

floppymoose wrote:If they had $300 million in losses last year (all of a sudden, after a nice run of profitability until - surprise! - it's CBA negotiating time) and then the next CBA gives them $300 million more (7% of the BRI) why should the values go up? The league will be breaking even.

It's amazing that so few ever see the contradictions. It's Emperor's New Clothes all over again!

Meanwhile, Tom Ziller beats up on Simmons:
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2011/10/24/ ... dship-hook

In the previous conversation those numbers are flawed because they take ebitda as net profit. Sleepy himself said that he acknowledged that things like interest and depreciation on tangible assets are legitimate.
Read this:
http://raptorsrepublic.com/2011/07/15/n ... cratchers/


In any case even if the NBA was secretly making $300 million profit and they wanted to make even more profit, they are the freaking owners!!! The players can put up mulitimillion dollar arenas and go form another league if they dont like it.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#285 » by Indeed » Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:27 pm

ranger001 wrote:
Indeed wrote:This is how the world works if you are paying for business operation costs, but not for personal gain. Not for millions to hire your relative on an internal position, no?

What? Private businesses hire their relatives all the time. You think that is an nba thing?

Please read the previous conversation, read some of those articles where they provide more information and numbers:

floppymoose wrote:If they had $300 million in losses last year (all of a sudden, after a nice run of profitability until - surprise! - it's CBA negotiating time) and then the next CBA gives them $300 million more (7% of the BRI) why should the values go up? The league will be breaking even.

It's amazing that so few ever see the contradictions. It's Emperor's New Clothes all over again!

Meanwhile, Tom Ziller beats up on Simmons:
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2011/10/24/ ... dship-hook

In the previous conversation those numbers are flawed because they take ebitda as net profit. Sleepy himself said that he acknowledged that things like interest and depreciation on tangible assets are legitimate.
Read this:
http://raptorsrepublic.com/2011/07/15/n ... cratchers/


In any case even if the NBA was secretly making $300 million profit and they wanted to make even more profit, they are the freaking owners!!! The players can put up mulitimillion dollar arenas and go form another league if they dont like it.


They can't because they are under NBA, otherwise, they are already playing somewhere in America.
You think there is no one else willing to do this? Rogers and Bell are eyeing on it. Same for the NHL, if the league allows it, there will be another Toronto team.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#286 » by Reignman » Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:45 pm

Where do you see others lining up to start their own league? I don't see it. Hell, go find me billionaires that are ready to blow their money on an NBA team right now. You won't. Billiionaires didn't become billionaires by investing in a failing business model.

Just look at the contracts these guys are getting in Europe, that's their "market value" as we speak and they aren't getting NBA money. Kobe can't even get $15 mil in Europe but he makes $30 mil + in the NBA and that excludes all the fringe benefits like flying first class and staying at 5 star hotels on the road.

And then people wonder why their are some frugal owners in the NBA.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#287 » by ranger001 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:47 pm

Indeed wrote:
ranger001 wrote:Read this:
http://raptorsrepublic.com/2011/07/15/n ... cratchers/


In any case even if the NBA was secretly making $300 million profit and they wanted to make even more profit, they are the freaking owners!!! The players can put up mulitimillion dollar arenas and go form another league if they dont like it.


They can't because they are under NBA, otherwise, they are already playing somewhere in America.
You think there is no one else willing to do this? Rogers and Bell are eyeing on it. Same for the NHL, if the league allows it, there will be another Toronto team.

Another Toronto NHL team you mean.

There is absolutely nobody who will try to form another NBA league. I laughed when Carmelo talked about this, he should read about the OSHL that tried to form during the hockey lockout.

The players are not going to put up any equity for a new league and no group of billionaire owners are going to step forward without an even more restrictive CBA than the one the players rejected.

When the players realize they are employees and only entitled to what the owners give them is when we will see the nba again.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#288 » by Reignman » Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:55 pm

That's the whole thing Ranger, back in the early 90's the players had a legitimate gripe about the "low" salaries compared to revenue/profits; however, that was all erased in 99 when the owners signed off on 57% making ball players some of the highest paid athletes in the world.

The union no longer has any fundamental ground where they can say they are "underpaid". Even at 50% NBA players will still be among the highest paid athletes in North America even though NBA revenues pale in comparison to the NFL or MLB.

50% is as fair as it gets, people need to get over the fact that the owners agreed to an extremely player-friendly CBA in the last 2 rounds.

This CBA is about stabalization:

- Creating a healthy business model
- Creating a system where all teams can compete on equal footing
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#289 » by floppymoose » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:18 pm

ranger001 wrote:And again, the players are employees not shareholders.


This is basically at the heart of the disconnect. These players are very much unlike most employees. They are not replaceable. You can absolutely correlate player quality with revenue. It's not the only factor. But it is the single largest factor.

They are going to be paid like premier entertainers. They are always going to be paid a big % of the revenue. Those who want NBA players to live in a world where they are the only premier entertainers who aren't paid that way, are doomed to disappointment. That's not how it works. No collection of owners have enough leverage to make that happen - the players WILL form a new league if you tell them all "You can be paid no more than a million dollars a season".

Once you understand that, you'll realize that the natural question to ask is:
What would player salary look like if there were no union, and the teams were competing against each other for their services? And given U.S. law, they would not be allowed to collude to hold down player salaries. It would be a free market.

The answer to that is that players like Lebron and Durant would make even more. Players like Jamal Crawford would make less. But the overall portion of the league revenue that the players took home would be the result of the natural free market. And it would be most of the revenues. Because for years the league has run at a profit while giving the players most of the revenue - we've already seen that. Even if you believe the owners losses, that is only over the last couple of seasons. And we have baseball and hockey to look at, where we have profitable leagues that pay the players over half of the revenue.

So we already know the answer, if there were an open market. >50% to the players. Probably around 55%, judging from the other leagues. And it's probably even more than that, because the player's union in those other sports have likely traded some $$$ for system rules that are amenable to player interests, like having guaranteed contracts, trade rules that keep a player from being jerked around too much, etc.

The farther the owners get away from that free market split of the revenues, the greater the incentive the players have just to opt out. That could mean decertifying the union, forming their own league, taking legal action against the owners, etc.

The owners are engaged in a careful calculus of shifting the most revenue they can from the players without having the players actually opt out. That's what is going on.

All the uninformed talk about "50/50 is fair", "22 teams are losing money", "the league needs 300 million more a year form the players".... that's all just talking points. The owners have been planning this for years. It's been preordained that the players were going to miss paychecks. It's been preordained that the last couple of seasons before this negotiation were going to show leaner league finances. This is a power play.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#290 » by Reignman » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:35 pm

floppymoose wrote: No collection of owners have enough leverage to make that happen - the players WILL form a new league if you tell them all "You can be paid no more than a million dollars a season".



This is what annoys me about some of you posters and I'd wish you'd stay on the general board.

Where the F has ANYONE asked the players to only take a mil? Honestly, let's leave the hyperbole and conjecture for the general board.

That was a fundamental gripe for the union pre-90's. In 99 those same greedy ass owners signed off on a CBA to give the players 57% of the BRI and made them some of the highest paid athletes in the world. Hell, they were the highest paid athletes in North America even the though the NBA was #3 in revenues and paled in comparison to the NFL and MLB.

50/50 is fair. Unfortunately, the players and fans like you can't wrap your heads around the fact that this CBA/negotiation has NOTHING to do with the last CBA. That one EXPIRED (I hate having to spell this out for everyone). New economic climate, new deal, that's the downside of being unionized.

These same greedy owners went out and paid Arenas/Shard $20 mil per and the players have the nerve to say management isn't doing their job when they have been the DIRECT benefactors of any mismanagement by the owners. (There's a reason the NBAPA doesn't want to move to far away from the current CBA, THEY LOVE IT because under this CBA they are consistently overpaid, even by teams that can't afford it).

And here's my last point, 50/50 still keeps the NBA players amongst the highest paid athelets in North America.

BTW, the owners aren't worried about the players "opting out" of the union, that has got to be the silliest thing I've heard. If opting out was a viable option the NFLPA would've done it a long time ago with much more of a leg to stand on than the NBAPA.

TBH, this ain't the GB, let's have some real conversations here.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#291 » by ATLTimekeeper » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:00 pm

College players play for free. They could easily get paid work around the world, yet they choose the comfort and prestige of playing in the NCAA. I don't think the NBA players have any aspirations to start their own league. This isn't a long-coming power play, this is a reactionary spasm to players playing GM, and agents threatening to blackball teams from their rosters to squeeze money. They're going to make the players hurt, because the players took the marketing tool of a "star's league" to mean that they're in charge, instead of on display.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#292 » by floppymoose » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:02 pm

Reignman wrote:And here's my last point, 50/50 still keeps the NBA players amongst the highest paid athelets in North America.


You keep saying this as if it were relevant in some way.

750 mlb players in a league with $6.6 billion revenue
700 nhl players in a league with $3 billion revenue
1700 players in a league with $8 billion revenue
400 nba players in a league with $4 billion revenue

They are the highest paid because they are the most valuable. Your idea that they should be paid less because other, less valuable athletes are paid less.... is specious reasoning.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#293 » by Reignman » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:06 pm

ATLTimekeeper wrote:College players play for free. They could easily get paid work around the world, yet they choose the comfort and prestige of playing in the NCAA. I don't think the NBA players have any aspirations to start their own league. This isn't a long-coming power play, this is a reactionary spasm to players playing GM, and agents threatening to blackball teams from their rosters to squeeze money. They're going to make the players hurt, because the players took the marketing tool of a "star's league" to mean that they're in charge, instead of on display.


Agreed ATL, unfortunately this is coming at the expense of the 99% (the vast majority of players haven't been fairly represented thus far).

The owners only fault in this is signing off on the 57% on the last CBA, but like in all walks of life, people make mistakes and the beauty of it is that we can fix our mistakes. The players aren't being counselled properly. 50/50 still keeps them amongst the highest paid athletes in NA but they have been brainwashed (just like some fans - see floppymoose) to believe they are making "concessions" when that's not close to being the truth.

The fact is the owners gave up way too much in the last CBA and they are correcting that problem. They aren't forcing the players to be underpaid, instead they are stabilizing the business model.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#294 » by Reignman » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:10 pm

floppymoose wrote:
Reignman wrote:And here's my last point, 50/50 still keeps the NBA players amongst the highest paid athelets in North America.


You keep saying this as if it were relevant in some way.

750 mlb players in a league with $6.6 billion revenue
700 nhl players in a league with $3 billion revenue
1700 players in a league with $8 billion revenue
400 nba players in a league with $4 billion revenue

They are the highest paid because they are the most valuable. Your idea that they should be paid less because other, less valuable athletes are paid less.... is specious reasoning.


What? How are they more valuable? I equate a star NBA baller (LBJ/Wade/Kobe) to be the equivalent of a star QB in the NFL or a star goalie in the NHL or a star pitcher (not as much as the other 3) in MLB. They are still making more than those guys and people like you have created this fictional nonsense in your head that they are more impactful. That's a bunch of BS.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#295 » by Reignman » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:12 pm

The only point I'll concede here is that there needs to be some kind of reform when it comes to NBA officiating/star calls.

If you're going to let the stars do whatever they want on the perimeter then defenders should get a lot more leeway.

Get rid of the hand-checking rule and call it a day, that would fix everything IMO.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#296 » by ranger001 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:18 pm

floppymoose wrote:
ranger001 wrote:And again, the players are employees not shareholders.


This is basically at the heart of the disconnect. These players are very much unlike most employees. They are not replaceable. You can absolutely correlate player quality with revenue. It's not the only factor. But it is the single largest factor.
....

The disconnect is people saying players shouldn't pay for this and they shouldn't pay for that. The players WANT to be treated like employees, they don't want any of the risks of ownership. As an employee their salaries are at risk.

If you're an employee then when costs for the owners rise then the owners reduce costs. That means salaries will fall. They are the the best players in the world but that does not mean they are immune from salary adjustments. If the owners can't make a profit there is not going to be a league.

Nobody is talking about 1 million/year, they were offered 50% which they will take after they lose a season.

And if you think the players are going to risk their own equity or another group of billionaires is going to step in and offer more than 50% you're wrong.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#297 » by Reignman » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:21 pm

ranger001 wrote:
floppymoose wrote:
ranger001 wrote:And again, the players are employees not shareholders.


This is basically at the heart of the disconnect. These players are very much unlike most employees. They are not replaceable. You can absolutely correlate player quality with revenue. It's not the only factor. But it is the single largest factor.
....

The disconnect is people saying players shouldn't pay for this and they shouldn't pay for that. The players WANT to be treated like employees, they don't want any of the risks of ownership. As an employee their salaries are at risk.

If you're an employee then when costs for the owners rise then the owners reduce costs. That means salaries will fall. They are the the best players in the world but that does not mean they are immune from salary adjustments. If the owners can't make a profit there is not going to be a league.

Nobody is talking about 1 million/year, they were offered 50% which they will take after they lose a season.

And if you think the players are going to risk their own equity or another group of billionaires is going to step in and offer more than 50% you're wrong.


It's almost comical at this point to have these types of "debates". This is what the GB does to you if you hang there for too long.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#298 » by floppymoose » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:26 pm

Reignman wrote:What? How are they more valuable?


Because they bring in more revenue per player.

This isn't rocket science. If Celine Dion can sell out 10,000 seats at $200 (but no more), and the Rolling Stones can sell out the same arena at the same price (but no more), then Celine Dion is more (financially) valuable than an idividual member of the Rolling Stones.

Is this really that hard for you? It's just simple division.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#299 » by Reignman » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:28 pm

floppymoose wrote:
Reignman wrote:What? How are they more valuable?


Because they bring in more revenue per player.



Prove it. The burden of proof is on YOU.

Did you really think you were going to come here and just make random comments without someone calling you out?

And I want to see numbers, explain how the superstars bring in more revenue than the superstars in the NFL/MLB/NHL. And don't bring some weak **** like jersey sales to prove your point.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread II 

Post#300 » by floppymoose » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:32 pm

lol. This is hilarious. Look, I gave you the numbers. They are rough, but they are publicly available. You can choose not to believe me if you want, in which case I invite you to look them up for yourself.

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