The Tank Debate Thread

[HolyMage110]

I really think this should be locked... idk what this thread is supposed to accomplish... the team isn't tanking...

discussion.

[basketball royalty]

I don't think Masai is done with the bench. Still needs some scoring punch.

Of course I'd rather finish higher but who says we get swept by Mia? Maybe we steal one or two? If we do become a serious defensive team minus the lapses we always seems to see I would think we could be in any game.

So go 1-4 vs miami? then what...

Then next year you add pieces and get better. Maybe make a trade that improves the team. I guess it is not as sexy as losing as much as possible and praying.

[DatBoiCapspace]

N.B. Neither Bosh nor Aldridge made either an All-NBA team or an All-D team, so no, they are not good examples of what I was talking about.

Both Bosh and Aldridge have made the All-NBA team.

[Marvin Martian]

You need 2 Bosh's or 2 Melo's on your team to even start having a discussion about becoming one of the better playoff teams.

And then you would need 4 Melo's to even be a contender.

[ThemCrookedRefs]

Question for you anti tank people. Obviously if we make the playoffs we want to avoid the 8th seed at all costs since Miami is a sweep waiting to happen, while Chicago and Indy at least present the chance for a 5 or 6 game series. But seeing almost every other team below us add significant pieces while the Raptors virtually stand still has to be frustrating no?

Mia, Chi, Ind, BKY, and NY are the five locks. Wizards IMO will take a giant step forward next season (would have made the playoffs if Wall didn't miss the first 2, 3 months) So that's six teams. Cleveland has some risky players that they added (Bynum, Bennett) but they're no doubt are ready to take the next step in their rebuild and are more talented than us.

So that leaves one spot for Atlanta, Detroit, Toronto and Milwaukee (who always seem to find a way to finish 8th or 9th). So even if we make it, that leaves us in the dreaded 8th spot first round bye spot. And with the team currently as is, I'll be honest I think Atlanta and Detroit are better because the bench unit for this team sucks. Stone-Ross-Fields/Novak-Hansborough-Gray? Masai hasn't exactly beefed up the bench.

For me, it's not really frustrating (although I do love seeing transactions, who doesn't?) because I understand that the FO believes it has some good players and wants to see how they do with a full training camp and some more regular season games under their belts. I think big moves will be made before the All-Star break if this team struggles to begin the season again. Masai's trying to round out the current roster with the type of players Casey covets: a 3-pt shooter (Novak), a defensive-minded PG (Stone), and a gritty big (Hansbrough, who I loathe). On paper, I think this team is currently at best a 6 seed and at worst an 8 seed; I'd put Cleveland and Detroit in this range too.

I still want to move DD if he doesn't step up his defence and knock down the open 3 with some better consistency, but I'd give him until the break to show real improvement. I expect Rudy, Lowry, and JV to have great seasons. I hope Fields is fully recovered from his injury and can contribute more offensively. And most importantly, just getting rid of Bargs does wonders for this team on/off the court. I think this team will surprise people.

[hillbilly hare]

You know what you tankers have to do so your claims actually have some weight is to list all the guys coming out that are surefire superstars. Give us some sort of idea why you all think there are 7-8 superstars coming out in 2014.

We all know Wiggins and believe in him. Maybe Parker and Smart but how good are those guys? Who else is there? Why are you guys creaming your pants and bother us about your pants creamery?

Or you can just say we are a treadmill, enjoy 9th blah blah blah.

We have to get much better talent. Period.

We don't have superstar talent, or even All-star talent, or even 2nd tier talent. That is a major weakness on any team that wants to contend.

The anti-tankers criticize the tanking strategy, but they only focus on the draft in terms of the guy, or The Guy, we draft. What Houston showed last year is that you don't need to DRAFT your superstar, you can also trade for him. They landed Harden with a so-so prospect they drafted 12th (!), a big expiring, and 2 mid-first round picks. That is a pretty underwhelming package overall. And one we could've easily beaten, but that's beside the point.

So let's not focus ONLY on The Guy we might draft in 14, though of course he might have star potential too. We need to accumulate all the picks and young prospects and cap space we can. That is the only way to even have a shot at acquiring top tier talent. Again, at this point in time, we have no top tier talent. Period. How are we going to get some? I suggest that the best way is to accumulate the best trade assets possible and make the best trades possible at the right time. If that means trading Rudy Gay (not a top tier talent) and Lowry (not a top tier talent) and Demar (not a top tier talent), in well-focused, clear-headed moves designed to maximize our chances of getting top tier talent, then yes, we should pull the trigger on those trades, if and when they appear.

[TheRealBlizzy]

You need 2 Bosh's or 2 Melo's on your team to even start having a discussion about becoming one of the better playoff teams.

And then you would need 4 Melo's to even be a contender.

You guys are insane. You don't even know anything about basketball, like really? You like our core and say stupid **** like you need 4 melo's to contend, HELLO 1 MELO IS BETTER THEN OUR TEAM !

[sanity]

N.B. Neither Bosh nor Aldridge made either an All-NBA team or an All-D team, so no, they are not good examples of what I was talking about.

Both Bosh and Aldridge have made the All-NBA team.

Both would also be players worth tanking for as well. When our team is not only capped out without an all-star player, but haven't won more than 40 games in the last couple years... yeah, you need talent, even if it isn't of the James/Durant/Wiggins caliber.

[hillbilly hare]

N.B. Neither Bosh nor Aldridge made either an All-NBA team or an All-D team, so no, they are not good examples of what I was talking about.

Both Bosh and Aldridge have made the All-NBA team.

It's "what have done for me lately". The guys I listed, from this year's teams, are the guys I called "superstars", a rough, relative term that I'd call "game changers", guys the other team has to plan for at both ends of the floor. You get 2 of those guys and that makes it more than twice as difficult for the other team to plan against, as it grows exponentially. All of those guys, apart from David Lee, are those kinds of game changers. I would trade everyone on the team for one of the younger guys (Harden, George, Griffin, etc.) to play alongside Jonas and build for the future.

[JYD]

I think it's rather simple. We have Val now, and though we should not want to dump our assets for pennies on the dollar to tank, it would be wise to make moves sooner than later with players like DD, Gay and Lowry before training camp, even if those moves are less than ideal (not garbage deals, but also maybe not ideal return as well).

If you don't make those hard decisions before camp, you're either in that 7-11 holding pattern, or worse, in which case then you'll be in an even more desperate position to trade guys to tank. Which means maybe you get the same value or worse value you could have gotten in the offseason, plus you might be in a position where tanking at that point only gets you into top 8 or 9 territory like the Ross draft, instead of top 5, which is important in 2014.

If we hedge, there's not a great chance we get better return on our assets after the season starts, plus there's not a great chance at a top 5 pick and a star, so we'd be going into next year in a similar position..still only 1 young star with the need to add another.

If we are decisive now, make some tough decisions on moving talent before camp so we can get top 5, then we have a more than decent chance at having 2 young stars at this time next year..and all of a sudden building around them becomes much, much easier.

[basketball royalty]

We don't even have 2nd tier talent now? Wow. I mean it is true we can't argue that we have superstars or allstars on the team but not even 2nd tier talent. Is it safe to say we have at least on 3rd tier talent on the team? I know would be pushing it to ask if we had more than one.

[DatBoiCapspace]

N.B. Neither Bosh nor Aldridge made either an All-NBA team or an All-D team, so no, they are not good examples of what I was talking about.

Both Bosh and Aldridge have made the All-NBA team.

It's "what have done for me lately". The guys I listed, from this year's teams, are the guys I called "superstars", a rough, relative term that I'd call "game changers", guys the other team has to plan for at both ends of the floor. You get 2 of those guys and that makes it more than twice as difficult for the other team to plan against, as it grows exponentially. All of those guys, apart from David Lee, are those kinds of game changers. I would trade everyone on the team for one of the younger guys (Harden, George, Griffin, etc.) to play alongside Jonas and build for the future.

I thought you were pro tank? That wouldnt be a tank move, that would be a treadmill move probably giving us a 7-11 record this year.

[DatBoiCapspace]

N.B. Neither Bosh nor Aldridge made either an All-NBA team or an All-D team, so no, they are not good examples of what I was talking about.

Both Bosh and Aldridge have made the All-NBA team.

Both would also be players worth tanking for as well. When our team is not only capped out without an all-star player, but haven't won more than 40 games in the last couple years... yeah, you need talent, even if it isn't of the James/Durant/Wiggins caliber.

You dont get talent by giving away talent. If you give away all your talent in hopes of drafting great talent, you will need a James/Durant caliber to make up for it. Bosh/Aldridge wont cut it. Or did you forget the last 10 years of the NBA?

[TorontoRapture]

Anyone who opposes tanking is a stupid, moronic, imbecilic, idiot, dimwit, numbskull, braindead, nincompoop, mental midget.

Stop it. You're sounding like an anti-tanker.

[Chaos Engine]

The team as is right now is probably 9th-11th in the east aka the worst spot to be. All it takes is one Lowry or Gay trade and we are on our way to Wiggins/Parker/Randle!!!!!!!!!

[basketball royalty]

You need 2 Bosh's or 2 Melo's on your team to even start having a discussion about becoming one of the better playoff teams.

And then you would need 4 Melo's to even be a contender.

You guys are insane. You don't even know anything about basketball, like really? You like our core and say stupid **** like you need 4 melo's to contend, HELLO 1 MELO IS BETTER THEN OUR TEAM !

While you sound like a basketball savant.

[Chevy Chase]

Did I make the OP out of crake cocaine? The tank trolls just can't help themselves to post in this forum.

If its true, that there are now so many good teams like Clev, and Wiz in our division that we have no chance to make the playoffs, then we will have tanked anyways. I think that all us anti-tankers will agree than if by a certain point the team is looking disastrous, then perhaps MU makes a few adjustments to ensure that we don't have a late run. That would be a good time to trade Rudy because by then, he would have much less contract left and might be more attractive.

[TheRealBlizzy]

I would be down for something with Cleveland, I feel like they would want to bolster up and could offer a lot of future picks that we can bundle with future ny picks + our future picks to nab an allstar level talent after we draft our own top pick in 2014.

Miami also has a heavy need for interior presence, rebounding and toughness / energy. LBJ's still good friends with A.Varejao and this would definately be a solid pickup for their team, of course I could see them tossing some mid-low first rounders and 2nd rounders, while dumping Joel / Millers contracts off.

http://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/6314275

Something like:

Toronto Out:
Rudy Gay
Amir Johnson
Landry Fields

Toronto In:
Tristan Thompson
Mike Miller (buyout/retire)
Joel Anthony
2x Future MIA 1st Rnd Pick
1x Future MIA 2nd Rnd Pick

Cleveland Out:
Anderson Varejao
Tristan Thompson

Cleveland In:
Rudy Gay
Amir Johnson
Landry Fields (or mia, idk)
Miami Future 2nd Rnd Pick

Miami Out:
Mike Miller
Joel Anthony
2x 1st round picks
2x 2nd round picks

Miami In:
Anderson Varejao
Landry Fields (if cleve didn't want)

Ill keep it short just want to see what people think of a move like this .. not sure if all teams would agree but I don't think its that far out there..

Cleveland: Kyrie - Dion - Rudy Gay - A.Bennet - Bynum ... amir first big off the bench to backup bennet / bynum if he cant play mega minutes (amir can slot in as a starter as proven). Landry can be a wing off the bench or sent to miami if they dont want him. also get a pick out of it, lose TT but AV is no longer needed if Bynum works out, and if Bynum doesn't work out they are FKD anyway lol.

Miami: ... give up draft picks that wont be in the lottery, dropping miller and joel for anderson varejao, no brainer imo.

Toronto: Lowry - DD / Ross - Ross/Novak - T.Thompson - JV ... have Acy/Hansborough off the bench first big, joel can stay and be a hometown fav (lol!) and play the aaron gray role (or both share mins). we develop this young core, going forward with tons of draft picks from this and bargs deal, and focus on positioning for a top 5 2014 pick. Lets say we do get one of the solid 3s, now we have this in 2014 (only one year away!):

Lowry ($8mil) - DeMar DeRozan ($10m)- Wiggins/Randle($5m) - TT($5m) - JV($5m) ... with a bench mob of Acy/Hansborough ($4m) + Ross($3m), thats a very nice looking team @ $40 mil (minus other contracts we gotta get rid of, with everyone like 24-25 or younger in the core. We will have cap room shortly with that, and will also have many options if Ross can pan out and play fulltime 2 starter 3+D. We could then package DeRozan with tons of draft picks to teams who might be loosing one of the big time FA's, and possibly work a S&T deal ... or we can just sit and be patient with that core and wait for a solid deal to pop up with the 8-10 draft picks we will have stocked and throw derozan / ross in and voila. contender.

We have a short window to make this work though, you gotta do this, have that roster above on those rookie deals, and then have the cap window to trade the picks for a max star (sign a solid FA first, leaving some cap room so we can still S&T and take money back).

[StMikes31]

http://www2.tsn.ca/window/podcastcentre/#id=13\

Masai yesterday - nothing new but adds to the fact he is waiting for the right re-build package. Page 9

[Marvin Martian]

You need 2 Bosh's or 2 Melo's on your team to even start having a discussion about becoming one of the better playoff teams.

And then you would need 4 Melo's to even be a contender.

You guys are insane. You don't even know anything about basketball, like really? You like our core and say stupid **** like you need 4 melo's to contend, HELLO 1 MELO IS BETTER THEN OUR TEAM !

No he isn't. Melo is overrated and has been his entire career. He has been outplayed by Allen Iverson at the age of 32 and only made it to the conference finals once....as the third best player on his team behind Billups and Nene. It is no wonder that DEN built a better team with a bunch of non all-stars than a glorified mediocre scorer who doesn't play defense.