PG: The Scottie Barnes Experience

[Vampirate]

Sounds about right

1. Sengun
2. Green
3. Mobley
4. Barnes

I’d take him over Mobley tbh

I would too. Mobley has the tools (so does Scottie) but lacks the intensity and mentality

Right now I’d have Scottie at 3rd but obviously still way too early

Green is probably the redrafts consensus #1 but after him it becomes murky.

Cade, Suggs, Barnes and Mobley all have their legit question marks. So does Green of course but his scoring is basically impossible to turn down.

[Vampirate]

still thinking about it the day after

Read on Twitter

This was my favourite play of the night. Not just the no look pass, but how he got his initial pass deflected from the left block and still beat everyone to the ball at the elbow.

Also loved the bad pass from Banton he caught one handed and fed to Yuta for the dunk.

I remember watching Kawhi's rookie season and the ball was falling out of bounds and Kawhi just casually grabs it one handed.

[Raps in 4]

I’d take him over Mobley tbh

I would too. Mobley has the tools (so does Scottie) but lacks the intensity and mentality

Right now I’d have Scottie at 3rd but obviously still way too early

Green is probably the redrafts consensus #1 but after him it becomes murky.

Cade, Suggs, Barnes and Mobley all have their legit question marks. So does Green of course but his scoring is basically impossible to turn down.

I still wouldn't take Green #1. He didn't really show anything in SL that would change how he was viewed pre-draft.

[Vampirate]

I would too. Mobley has the tools (so does Scottie) but lacks the intensity and mentality

Right now I’d have Scottie at 3rd but obviously still way too early

Green is probably the redrafts consensus #1 but after him it becomes murky.

Cade, Suggs, Barnes and Mobley all have their legit question marks. So does Green of course but his scoring is basically impossible to turn down.

I still wouldn't take Green #1. He didn't really show anything in SL that would change how he was viewed pre-draft.

I mean he was an uber efficient scoring machine (SL stats 20.3 points on 51.4%/52.6%/92.9% shooting) and has future scoring champion written all over him.

The main questions now is will he bring anything else? How is his defense, passing etc.

How will his scoring hold up in the Post Season.

Atm he's like the anti Barnes.

I wonder if he's going to be the new Kyrie stat wise without being the weird headcase Kyrie is.


Superstar potential probability is Green, Mobley, Barnes, Cade, Suggs in that order imo.

Mobley and Barnes have a higher ceiling but are less likely to hit their ceiling than Green is imo.

Cade needs an unstoppable reliable go to shot to get to that level and Suggs needs to develop an elite deep 3 shot.

[Jcity08]

Barnes has a genuine love for the game and thats the intangible quality that will continuously push his skills forward. It feels like the game slows down for him and that might be the playmaker in him but he can quickly grasp where everyone is and the correct pass to make. That also helps him anticipate where the ball will be for easy deflections.

That coupled with his high energy, budding leadership qualities and innate defensive acumen, I have no doubt he's quickly going to be the face of this franchise.

[pingpongrac]

We are loads better than last year. Addition by subtraction without Baynes and Len. Svi is night and day compared to Matt Thomas. We all loved Matt but he couldn’t play D or create his own shot. Svi is a poor man’s Bogdanovich. OG looks like an all star. Dragic will be the steady hands. Siakam should have less pressure. And Scottie will just impact every part of the game. Losing Lowry hurts but others will play more free without his presence. No way this team is bad enough to tank.

Yep. Most people are quick to point to our final record last season and how we lost the GROAT without looking at all of the facts.

First of all, we were much better than our record last season indicated. Before we blatantly tanked the last few weeks of the season, we had the NetRTG and expected W/L record of a .500 team -- and that was after all of the injuries, key man games lost due to COVID protocols and a brutal 1-13 stretch.

Second, our overall roster is significantly better this year. Achiuwa + Birch > Baynes + Len, Barnes + Svi + (new and improved) Yuta > Bembry + Johnson + Thomas/Davis and we have much more depth beyond that now (Banton, Champagnie and Wainright all look like they can contribute at some point this season) too. A good chunk of our roster is very young with lots of room to grow (GTJ, Flynn, OG) while Siakam (and FVV post-COVID) is coming off a tough season with lots of ups and downs. Losing Lowry and Powell will hurt a bit, but Dragic and GTJ give us very similar production (just without the efficiency of Powell) while we're clearly better everywhere else.

Third, and maybe most importantly, we won't be practicing in a ballroom and playing on the road all year this time. It seems like a lot of people are severely underestimating how much of an obstacle it was to play all 72 games away from home (where we have won about 65% of games for the past decade), especially early in the season when they were getting booed/actively cheered against by their "home" fans.

I see us as a .500 team this season with the potential to win 45-50 games if OG takes a bit of a leap, Siakam has a bit of a bounce-back year (and he was already solid last year averaging 21/7/5) and Barnes proves to be a solid rotation piece in his rookie season (which I already think he will because he has such a high impact in every game he has played for us but the one SL game against the Warriors IIRC). People that think we'll win 25-30 games and be in the hunt for a top 5 pick without significant injuries/another COVID shutdown are off their rockers lol.

I think you're off your rocker if you think this team as it is right now has potential to win 45-50 games.

Our defense will be solid no doubt but people forget how much we struggled on offense last year. That's only going to get worse without Lowry's scoring and playmaking. FVV is not a great creator for others at this point.

Plus, it's very clear that our mandate is to develop our young players. Sure, we can play Dragic more minutes and win a few more games but that's not what we're trying to do this year. Making the playoffs is not our priority right now. We're going to sacrifice wins for long term development.

I don't see our team getting significantly better until we get a real #1 option and then Siakam can go back to his strength of being the #2/3.

My guess is we will end up with ~30 something wins.

Edit: I meant thirty-something.

Our offence wasn't that bad last year. We were a slightly below average offensive team (16th in ORTG, 19th in PTS, 20th in TS%) while giving significant minutes to players like Baynes (50 TS%) and Johnson (52 TS%) while Flynn (48 TS%) had a very up and down rookie season. It's also worth noting that FVV's efficiency cratered post-ASB (.549 TS% down to .506) and he alluded numerous times to being affected by COVID, especially in the 2nd half of games.

That being said, FVV actually made our offence 6.1 points better when he was on the floor while Lowry and Powell (+2.9 and 3.7 on/off respectively) barely combined to match that impact. FVV also had the better ORTG (113.6 compared to 112.7 and 112.6) and significantly better AST/TO ratio (3.5 compared to 2.7 and 1.0). FVV's playmaking is perfectly fine and he has generally had much better AST numbers without Lowry (6.8 AST when Lowry sat, 6.1 AST when Lowry played last season) too.

I agree that the goal isn't necessarily to go all-out for the playoffs by sacrificing developmental minutes so Dragic can play 30+ MPG, but our youth/bench is already more polished on offence with the exception of Barnes and I like their defensive abilities too. To me, Dragic + sophomore Flynn + improved Yuta + Svi + Boucher + Achiuwa/Birch is actually significantly better than rookie Flynn + Bembry + Johnson + Yuta + Boucher + Davis/Thomas. We'll miss Lowry's playmaking and Powell's efficiency while the youngsters will probably commit turnovers a bit more frequently, but I just don't see how our offence is going to be that much worse than last year (if at all).

[C_Money]

I would too. Mobley has the tools (so does Scottie) but lacks the intensity and mentality

Right now I’d have Scottie at 3rd but obviously still way too early

Green is probably the redrafts consensus #1 but after him it becomes murky.

Cade, Suggs, Barnes and Mobley all have their legit question marks. So does Green of course but his scoring is basically impossible to turn down.

I still wouldn't take Green #1. He didn't really show anything in SL that would change how he was viewed pre-draft.

Really? I thought he looked like a future superstar in Summer League. The guy was getting any shot he wanted.

[DreamTeam09]

Doc rivers was quoted

"One thing that stood out was their length, even at the guards spots, all their players were long and athletic and I thought we had a lot of short guys on the floor. I mean at times our guards(76ers) were in the paint and their guards still got the rebound because of their length and that was a concern"

WoW - I've been screaming for more 6'8 wing players for about 2-3 seasons now and our FO finally answered my prayers and I'm glad that opposing teams noticed. I'm all in our philosophy, length everywhere, multiple ball handlers, get it and go!!! The fact we have guys like Barnes and Banton in the future just gives us so much flexibility compared to having some shorter more skilled guys...

Suggs might score more in orlando compared to Barnes, but Barnes literally changed our dynamic overnight almost by himself, something Suggs just wouldn't be able to do with his measurements.

Still would've loved the BJ Boston pick up, but I was looking at david johnson highlights and he really does all the tools needed to be a big time player. He's athletic enough at the guard spot, can shoot it, and he's deceptively quick/strong with his dribble. I hope they give him the green light in the G league, he has a powell type of game but more of a lead guard than powell.

[Basketball_Jones]

So Banton is a rookie too? Sorry haven’t been paying attention too much lol. He looked nice. We’re suddenly a pretty athletic team, whereas we were kind of old and aging not too long ago

[Mikistan]

Doc rivers was quoted

"One thing that stood out was their length, even at the guards spots, all their players were long and athletic and I thought we had a lot of short guys on the floor. I mean at times our guards(76ers) were in the paint and their guards still got the rebound because of their length and that was a concern"

WoW - I've been screaming for more 6'8 wing players for about 2-3 seasons now and our FO finally answered my prayers and I'm glad that opposing teams noticed. I'm all in our philosophy, length everywhere, multiple ball handlers, get it and go!!! The fact we have guys like Barnes and Banton in the future just gives us so much flexibility compared to having some shorter more skilled guys...

Suggs might score more in orlando compared to Barnes, but Barnes literally changed our dynamic overnight almost by himself, something Suggs just wouldn't be able to do with his measurements.

Still would've loved the BJ Boston pick up, but I was looking at david johnson highlights and he really does all the tools needed to be a big time player. He's athletic enough at the guard spot, can shoot it, and he's deceptively quick/strong with his dribble. I hope they give him the green light in the G league, he has a powell type of game but more of a lead guard than powell.

And to think we had the personnel to start this a littler earlier with Casey.

I always wanted us to play tross-demar-rudy all at the same time with Lowry and a big, 3 wing combo but no foresight

[scuervo1]

Totally OT but it is very significant the contrast between Suggs’ arm length and the ones from our team.

[720]

I’d take him over Mobley tbh

I would too. Mobley has the tools (so does Scottie) but lacks the intensity and mentality

Right now I’d have Scottie at 3rd but obviously still way too early

Green is probably the redrafts consensus #1 but after him it becomes murky.

Cade, Suggs, Barnes and Mobley all have their legit question marks. So does Green of course but his scoring is basically impossible to turn down.

Cade is better than Green. He would still go first.

[Vampirate]

I would too. Mobley has the tools (so does Scottie) but lacks the intensity and mentality

Right now I’d have Scottie at 3rd but obviously still way too early

Green is probably the redrafts consensus #1 but after him it becomes murky.

Cade, Suggs, Barnes and Mobley all have their legit question marks. So does Green of course but his scoring is basically impossible to turn down.

Cade is better than Green. He would still go first.

What are you basing this on?

Care to be a little more in depth?

[Los_29]

Green is probably the redrafts consensus #1 but after him it becomes murky.

Cade, Suggs, Barnes and Mobley all have their legit question marks. So does Green of course but his scoring is basically impossible to turn down.

Cade is better than Green. He would still go first.

What are you basing this on?

Care to be a little more in depth?

Almost everything. Cade is by far the better basketball player. Green is a bucket getter, no doubt about that. But the biggest problem with him is that's all he can do. I just don't see his game translating to wins at the NBA level unless he dramatically improves on the defensive end.

[TheRealDeal]

Imagine Scottie hyping up 20k screaming Raptors fans in the first regular season game at the ACC in almost 2 years. Make it happen! Before it’s too late…like the Jays or Canada Basketball

[HumbleRen]

GM's arent disregarding months of scouting because of 4 summer league games lol.

The draft would go the exact same as it did 2 months ago.

[720]

Green is probably the redrafts consensus #1 but after him it becomes murky.

Cade, Suggs, Barnes and Mobley all have their legit question marks. So does Green of course but his scoring is basically impossible to turn down.

Cade is better than Green. He would still go first.

What are you basing this on?

Care to be a little more in depth?

Don't get me wrong Green is a great scorer, makes it look easy and his ability to finish while getting contact in the lane is amazing for his skinny build. His speed and athleticism is something Cade does not possess. Cade is in a tough spot in Detroit where they're forcing him to share ball handling duties with Killian Hayes and overall has a lot less talent around him than say Green in Houston.

Cade is a scorer that can put up points in many ways (post ups, pull ups in the mid range, three pointers, etc), he is the better passer and defender as well. There is this gravity with Cade that's hard to explain. In college Cade would routinely take and make the tough shots his team needed, not even exaggerating in that he would often face double and triple teams and still figured out ways to get points up on the board. He's a dynamic tall point guard. Sure he doesn't have the speed or athleticism like a lot of guards but he makes up for it with his ball handling and size which opens up a lot of scoring.

Green is probably ROY with his scoring ability. Cade imo is the player with better potential and with development and talent around him he's going to be great in the future.

[Vampirate]

Cade is better than Green. He would still go first.

What are you basing this on?

Care to be a little more in depth?

Almost everything. Cade is by far the better basketball player. Green is a bucket getter, no doubt about that. But the biggest problem with him is that's all he can do. I just don't see his game translating to wins at the NBA level unless he dramatically improves on the defensive end.

All true, I have the same questions on Green too, however thing is Cade has a giant weakness in his turnovers, it's horrendous to the point one wonders why he was labelled a point guard to begin with.

Outside of Cade's ISOs, I don't really see a very high ceiling for the guy (meaning superstar) due to him not being the greatest athlete unless he develops an unstoppable shot (he might, the guy has decent height)

The one thing i'll say about Green though is I wonder how his game will fare once his athleticism starts to drop.

Cade might have a longer prime due to him needing to rely solely on his skill and height.

[720]

What are you basing this on?

Care to be a little more in depth?

Almost everything. Cade is by far the better basketball player. Green is a bucket getter, no doubt about that. But the biggest problem with him is that's all he can do. I just don't see his game translating to wins at the NBA level unless he dramatically improves on the defensive end.

All true, I have the same questions on Green too, however thing is Cade has a giant weakness in his turnovers, it's horrendous to the point one wonders why he was labelled a point guard to begin with.

Outside of Cade's ISOs, I don't really see a very high ceiling for the guy (meaning superstar) due to him not being the greatest athlete unless he develops an unstoppable shot (he might, the guy has decent height)

The one thing i'll say about Green though is I wonder how his game will fare once his athleticism starts to drop.

Cade might have a longer prime due to him needing to rely solely on his skill and height.

Cade's turnover numbers and overall low assist numbers are a byproduct of how poorly his teammates played. Aside from Cade himself there was only one decent shooter on that OSU team (on only 1 three point attempt a game so that guy was low volume). I believe he was the only ESPN top 100 player on his college team, you know how rare that is for a top prospect in college?

Very little spacing because of this and his opponents figured that out early.

How was Cade supposed to work with this? Look at their percentages from deep. Look at their volume.



edit: In summer league I would say he objectively had one bad game and that was vs the Thunder, where is had 5 turnovers and overall shot very poorly.

In the other two games in had low assist numbers but made up for it with steals and blocks (again I attribute this to the pistons forcing Killian Hayes to be the point while Cade plays offball).

[Vampirate]

Cade is better than Green. He would still go first.

What are you basing this on?

Care to be a little more in depth?

Don't get me wrong Green is a great scorer, makes it look easy and his ability to finish while getting contact in the lane is amazing for his skinny build. His speed and athleticism is something Cade does not possess. Cade is in a tough spot in Detroit where they're forcing him to share ball handling duties with Killian Hayes and overall has a lot less talent around him than say Green in Houston.

Cade is a scorer that can put up points in many ways (post ups, pull ups in the mid range, three pointers, etc), he is the better passer and defender as well. There is this gravity with Cade that's hard to explain. In college Cade would routinely take and make the tough shots his team needed, not even exaggerating in that he would often face double and triple teams and still figured out ways to get points up on the board. He's a dynamic tall point guard. Sure he doesn't have the speed or athleticism like a lot of guards but he makes up for it with his ball handling and size which opens up a lot of scoring.

Green is probably ROY with his scoring ability. Cade imo is the player with better potential and with development and talent around him he's going to be great in the future.

See my post to Los_29

I think Green will shoot up like a rocket and imo likely has the higher peak than Cade (future scoring champion) but also has a much higher chance of burning out faster once his athleticism fades.

This obviously changes if Cade can get a reliable unstoppable shot which is possible with his ISO skills. (and yes, i'm aware of Cade's clutch factor, i'm just not sure it puts him ahead of Green for me. If he starts shooting like Kyrie than this all changes as a 6"6 - 6"8, whatever Cade's height is Kyrie is an interesting player indeed.)

I just have doubts Cade will reach Kyrie's level of scoring. But who knows.


As for Cade as a PG, i'm labelling him a SG until he drastically limits his turnovers. The guy does not have a good A/TO ratio what so ever.

Cade's defense will probably be closer to the net as his lack of athleticism won't be much of a burden there defensively and he can use his height.

And yes, outside of Green's scoring what else can he do? It's just that his level of scoring coming into the draft seems extremely rare. We'll see how it translates to the NBA level.