The Ringer: Raptors should consider blowing it up

[almatic]

i dont know why there is so much hate surrounding Demar, he was clearly our best play for MOST of the playoffs without him the Raptors could barley score. Im in for a SEMI blow up but not a complete rebuild, Demar should be our cornerstone imagine how good Toronto would be if we had some decent 3 point shooters... Demar drive and kick would be deadly, no one on this roster can consistently hit a 3. I think Demar and Norm should be our cornerstone and everyone else should be expendable... that being said i dont think we should dump players for future assets only for other players that will make us better. Ive watched **** raptors ball for way too long and i am enjoying these consecutive playoff appearances, I will not watch ball if the raptors become a bottom team for the next 4-5 years... Lets be real, no team outside Cavs and Dubs are going to win it all this year does that mean every team should blow up their roster? lets just enjoy this ride as our team has never been this good.

How the heck can you have 2 cornerstones that play the same position?!

And Demar isn't a good enough defender or playmaker to play the 3 with Norm consistently.

[PhilBlackson]

i dont know why there is so much hate surrounding Demar, he was clearly our best play for MOST of the playoffs without him the Raptors could barley score. Im in for a SEMI blow up but not a complete rebuild, Demar should be our cornerstone imagine how good Toronto would be if we had some decent 3 point shooters... Demar drive and kick would be deadly, no one on this roster can consistently hit a 3. I think Demar and Norm should be our cornerstone and everyone else should be expendable... that being said i dont think we should dump players for future assets only for other players that will make us better. Ive watched **** raptors ball for way too long and i am enjoying these consecutive playoff appearances, I will not watch ball if the raptors become a bottom team for the next 4-5 years... Lets be real, no team outside Cavs and Dubs are going to win it all this year does that mean every team should blow up their roster? lets just enjoy this ride as our team has never been this good.

How the heck can you have 2 cornerstones that play the same position?!

And Demar isn't a good enough defender or playmaker to play the 3 with Norm consistently.

Move Norm to PG.

People are too caught up on positions. As Coach Cal told Masai, the game is becoming positionless. It's more about certain skills. The issue is you need a decision maker somewhere. Norm and DD would be just fine at being able to bring up the ball. Kyle has really just been a scoring guard playing out of the high PnR for either a step back 3 or drive and step back 2. As Norm continues to develop I don't see why he couldn't be used in a similar fashion, the key will be Norm's ballhandling and decision making. If the team had a Draymond type of player they would be off to the races. Not saying someone like that is available (although Millsap comes to mind) but just playing Devil's Advocate that it could be possible with some development.

It's also as aside why I think Masai drafts Hartenstein if he's still available. He was seen scouting him several times and he has great passing potential. Not quite a Jokic but his passing and 3pt shooting will be welcomed.

[gpoon]

i dont know why there is so much hate surrounding Demar, he was clearly our best play for MOST of the playoffs without him the Raptors could barley score. Im in for a SEMI blow up but not a complete rebuild, Demar should be our cornerstone imagine how good Toronto would be if we had some decent 3 point shooters... Demar drive and kick would be deadly, no one on this roster can consistently hit a 3. I think Demar and Norm should be our cornerstone and everyone else should be expendable... that being said i dont think we should dump players for future assets only for other players that will make us better. Ive watched **** raptors ball for way too long and i am enjoying these consecutive playoff appearances, I will not watch ball if the raptors become a bottom team for the next 4-5 years... Lets be real, no team outside Cavs and Dubs are going to win it all this year does that mean every team should blow up their roster? lets just enjoy this ride as our team has never been this good.

How the heck can you have 2 cornerstones that play the same position?!

And Demar isn't a good enough defender or playmaker to play the 3 with Norm consistently.

One is SF one is SG thats two different positions...

[Vee-Rex]

Let Lowry go. Why? Five reasons:

1. Although he's great in the regular season, he's inconsistent in the playoffs.
2. He'll be 32 years old next year and will soon start declining. Unless he's a top 5 player in the league and competing for championships, it just isn't worth it to max him out.
3. Unreliable in terms of health. He's injured practically every time the playoffs roll around.
4. Backup guards on the team show promise (Powell, CoJo, Vanvleet).
5. Even if you re-sign Lowry, re-sign everybody, Raps still likely lose to the Cavs in the playoffs.

I was a huge proponent (and was shot down faster than I could blink) of trading Lowry prior to the deadline. Now the Raps are less likely to get anything back for him. I don't think anyone was trashing Lowry or Toronto by advocating a trade, it was simply being able to see the dilemma cropping up in the future. Lowry should've been traded already for a couple of decent draft picks and a nice young player or two.

As for DeRozan, I wanna see two things:

1. Dude, work on that 3-point shot. His mid-ranged shot even when contested is money. All he has to do is step a few feet back and if he can improve the 3, he's so much more dangerous. Practice all off season. Shoot 3's for 5 hours every single day with a shooting coach and ball boy to throw it back at you after each shot.

2. Work on your passing out of traps/double-teams. If you look at the superstars like LeBron and Kawhi they are capable of launching on-point bullets to teammates out of the double. It makes a HUGE difference in the playoffs. Court awareness can come natural for some people, but for others it is honed through experience and study.

DeRozan is still kinda young and while his defense could be a lot better, I think a true step into superstardom involves being able to beat whatever the defense throws at you. He's close.

Let Ibaka walk. He's slowly declining and not worth anything near the amount of money he'll likely demand.

The rest is debatable but IMO those are the moves the Raps should make. They'll create flexibility while also positioning themselves to be ready for a complete rebuild or even a push for contendership if the right/perfect opportunity presents itself. But not trading Lowry is definitely one of those missed opportunities.

[LiSTWithLani]

Sorry you just gave me a link to a wall of stats, what exactly are you trying to show with that and how does it even relate to what you posted? Or is it just.... here have some stats! Guess I did have it right.

He has an eFG% of 47.7% (335th in the league)
His Net points per 100 possessions is -4.9
He overdribbles like crazy and is only assisted on 22% of his shots.
70% of his shots are jumpshots, where he makes eFG% of 43.4%
He is 91st in AST% at 20.4
He's 93rd in NetRTG at 3.3
He is 187th in TS% at 55.2%
He is 6th in USG% at 34.2%
He is 289th in PACE at 97.69%
He is 266th in REB% at 8.3%

If you want to break it down to only compare him with starting guards:
30th in OFFRTG
85th in DEFRTG
40th in NETRTG
61st in AST%
108th in AST/TO
134th in AST Ratio
26th in REB%
36th in TO Ratio
107th in EFG%
66th in TS%
3rd in USG%
99th in PACE
9th in PIE

In the playoffs this year:
PER 16.9
TS% 53.3
3PAr 8.6
FTr 45.7
TRB% 8.0
AST% 17.1
STL% 1.9
BLK% 0.0
TOV% 10.6
USG% 29.6
WS/48 .064
OBPM -1.2
DBPM 0.1
BPM -1.1
VORP 0.1
He was a -17.3 On-Off per 100 possessions


How do you look at those numbers and conclude that this is a maximum salaried player?

He wasn't a minus 17.3 per 100 in the regular season numbers and you Just inc,used it again with no proof, which was the premise of your fist post. We've had to go 3 posts to get to a legit number. But that on off number is not on your link, it' wasn't part of your original post. Derozan is NOT a maximum salaried playr. Not last year, not this year. Dude... if you're going to hate, just pick any of the holes in his game that are legit that already exist.

No wonder people think it's worse than they thought. They don't even check, they are just happy to hear it.

And btw, when we have one of the best benchs in the league (at least before the playoffs!) that can skew on/off ratings and it's just out of context. There are a number of teams that we see the same thing.

And btw 2, eFG% doesn't include free throws so it's pretty much cherry picking if you're not using TS%.

I can't locate the on-off numbers that I quoted, but i can tell you that I also used http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/derozde01.html#all_playoffs_advanced, http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201942/ and another in my search.

Meanwhile, technically he isn't a maximum salary player. I believe that we paid him more than any other team could have and he is the third largest annual salaried player this year. Yes, the cap is raising, yes, other players are overpaid, but he just doesn't bring the value of a top 3 player. That means, other guys have to take a cut in salary, or we have to massively overspend in luxury tax to compete with top teams. http://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/players.html

[mrsocko]

Blowing it up assumes that we would be dropping in the standings and drafting high, looking for that elusive superstar. Seems to work for about one in ten teams that try it but hurts like hell. Timberwolves are poised to reach the next level after years of bottom dwelling.
I would prefer this team to obtain an identity. Seems Casey and Masai have been at cross purposes for along time. Casey was supposed to make us a tough as nails defensive team but that was derailed by our success after the Gay trade.
Our success has gathered us a lot of trade worthy assets. Why not make some trades, focus on the defence and three point shooting with an efficient big in the middle. That's a simple formula but has worked for a lot of teams.
Making due with Derozan as our main offensive threat as an ISO player clogs the middle and stops ball movement. It's why Rudy Gay was traded. Seems to be easy to exploit in the playoffs when spacing is most important.

[CoachJReturns]

I enjoy seeing some passionate debate about the tram after a pretty pathetic playoff showing, but I hope everyone knows it really is pointless. Masai is not a risk taker and is incredibly content with just having a good, but never great, team along with total job security. He won't make any bold moves to improve the team (none are really available anyway) and he won't start over because he likes average teams more than rising ones in the lottery.

Anyone who just wants to make the playoffs and doesn't care what happens from that point is very lucky. There is no better GM for that than Masai. If he wasn't that way, Casey would have been gone after the Wizards sweep. But playoffs was enough. It always is.

[GimmeDat]

Shout out to Dr Positivity!

[VanWest82]

https://theringer.com/2017-nba-playoffs-team-offseason-rebuilding-raptors-clippers-bulls-pacers-f6b9c8062500

One NBA executive told me a few years ago that he’s heard of owners lurking on RealGM and Reddit to take the temperature of their fan bases before finalizing trades. It makes sense. The opinion of the most passionate and smartest fans live online.

Teddy Rogers on RealGM confirmed.

[Johnny Bball]

https://theringer.com/2017-nba-playoffs-team-offseason-rebuilding-raptors-clippers-bulls-pacers-f6b9c8062500

One NBA executive told me a few years ago that he’s heard of owners lurking on RealGM and Reddit to take the temperature of their fan bases before finalizing trades. It makes sense. The opinion of the most passionate and smartest fans live online.

Teddy Rogers on RealGM confirmed.

Lmfao!

The Ringer is good but this guy has written some real pieces of... work. All but 7 teams should blow it up. Lol. That's gonna work.

[VanWest82]

So two days ago I asked Kevin O'Connor about Demar's trade value:

As an aside, say we do decide to blow it up next year (or this off season for that matter). Demar is probably our best asset, but he's tricky to build around. Any idea what the Raptors might get for him, assuming he's able to replicate or improve upon the RS success he had this year?

He answered it indirectly in his article today:

But I don’t know if the Raptors can blow it up. Since the article published, I’ve asked around and a few front-office executives told me they don’t think there’s that much interest in DeRozan.

https://theringer.com/2017-nba-playoffs-team-offseason-rebuilding-raptors-clippers-bulls-pacers-f6b9c8062500

That pushes me even further toward 'bring back the band'. No point in tanking if we can't get much for Demar, arguably our biggest trade chip. I highly doubt he's interested in staying put through a rebuild, loyalty or no.

[CoachJReturns]

Just a random thought. I like Poeltl and think he'll be a starting center in a couple years, but I think we may have missed an opportunity by not trading up for Chriss when we had better assets than Phoenix to do so. Poeltl will be solid, but this team is going to get worse soon and doesn't have a lot of options to get better. Last year's top 10 pick was probably the last chance to add a major talent for the next few years. Masai is locked in to this core and cap space is non-existent. Chriss has a ways to go, but he has the potential to be an all-star.
Of course to be fair, while Chriss could have played for the Raptors early in the year as Siakam did with Sully out, he would only get half as many touches as he did in Phoenix where he was the number 2 option much of the time.
Here's hoping Norm breaks out, or Masai gets a fluke pick because this team has nowhere to go but down. Slowly, slowly down.

[CoachJReturns]

So two days ago I asked Kevin O'Connor about Demar's trade value:

As an aside, say we do decide to blow it up next year (or this off season for that matter). Demar is probably our best asset, but he's tricky to build around. Any idea what the Raptors might get for him, assuming he's able to replicate or improve upon the RS success he had this year?

He answered it indirectly in his article today:

But I don’t know if the Raptors can blow it up. Since the article published, I’ve asked around and a few front-office executives told me they don’t think there’s that much interest in DeRozan.

https://theringer.com/2017-nba-playoffs-team-offseason-rebuilding-raptors-clippers-bulls-pacers-f6b9c8062500

That pushes me even further toward 'bring back the band'. No point in tanking if we can't get much for Demar, arguably our biggest trade chip. I highly doubt he's interested in staying put through a rebuild, loyalty or no.

I wouldn't take one guy's opinion as gospel, but if he's right and there's no market for DeMar then there really isn't anything to be done. I am strongly pro tank, but that is almost entirely dependent on being able to land a top 10 pick for DeMar at this year's draft. If we had a guy like Dennis Smith Jr. before we even started the tank that would make it a much easier sell to fans and probably to MLSE. A star prospect offers some hope and interest.

I still think it's likely that we could get a pick in the 6-10 range for him, but if somehow we couldn't then there's no sense in making a move. Just ride it out until it breaks down.

[Duffman100]

So two days ago I asked Kevin O'Connor about Demar's trade value:

As an aside, say we do decide to blow it up next year (or this off season for that matter). Demar is probably our best asset, but he's tricky to build around. Any idea what the Raptors might get for him, assuming he's able to replicate or improve upon the RS success he had this year?

He answered it indirectly in his article today:

But I don’t know if the Raptors can blow it up. Since the article published, I’ve asked around and a few front-office executives told me they don’t think there’s that much interest in DeRozan.

https://theringer.com/2017-nba-playoffs-team-offseason-rebuilding-raptors-clippers-bulls-pacers-f6b9c8062500

That pushes me even further toward 'bring back the band'. No point in tanking if we can't get much for Demar, arguably our biggest trade chip. I highly doubt he's interested in staying put through a rebuild, loyalty or no.

Pfftt...that's crap. There would be huge interest in Demar.

[Jadoogar]

So two days ago I asked Kevin O'Connor about Demar's trade value:

As an aside, say we do decide to blow it up next year (or this off season for that matter). Demar is probably our best asset, but he's tricky to build around. Any idea what the Raptors might get for him, assuming he's able to replicate or improve upon the RS success he had this year?

He answered it indirectly in his article today:

But I don’t know if the Raptors can blow it up. Since the article published, I’ve asked around and a few front-office executives told me they don’t think there’s that much interest in DeRozan.

https://theringer.com/2017-nba-playoffs-team-offseason-rebuilding-raptors-clippers-bulls-pacers-f6b9c8062500

That pushes me even further toward 'bring back the band'. No point in tanking if we can't get much for Demar, arguably our biggest trade chip. I highly doubt he's interested in staying put through a rebuild, loyalty or no.

Pfftt...that's crap. There would be huge interest in Demar.

I'm guessing teams would want Demar but not for the price we're looking for. Which teams with top 10 picks would be looking for a derozan type player?
Brooklyn - no pick
Lakers - may not have their pick
Sixers - highly doubt it, they're still too far away imo
Suns - maybe but he plays the same position as Booker
Orlando - new GM, likely focused on rebuilding
Minnesota - maybe
New York - need to figure out Melo first, likely trying to rebuild
Dallas - yes
Sacramento - trying to rebuild
Pelicans - no pick this year

So i counted 3 teams that might be willing to give up a top 10 pick. There are other teams like Charlotte or Miami that might be interested but frankly don't have the assets. He's going to be a hard guy to trade.

[Duffman100]

So two days ago I asked Kevin O'Connor about Demar's trade value:

He answered it indirectly in his article today:


https://theringer.com/2017-nba-playoffs-team-offseason-rebuilding-raptors-clippers-bulls-pacers-f6b9c8062500

That pushes me even further toward 'bring back the band'. No point in tanking if we can't get much for Demar, arguably our biggest trade chip. I highly doubt he's interested in staying put through a rebuild, loyalty or no.

Pfftt...that's crap. There would be huge interest in Demar.

I'm guessing teams would want Demar but not for the price we're looking for. Which teams with top 10 picks would be looking for a derozan type player?
Brooklyn - no pick
Lakers - may not have their pick
Sixers - highly doubt it, they're still too far away imo
Suns - maybe but he plays the same position as Booker
Orlando - new GM, likely focused on rebuilding
Minnesota - maybe
New York - need to figure out Melo first, likely trying to rebuild
Dallas - yes
Sacramento - trying to rebuild
Pelicans - no pick this year

So i counted 3 teams that might be willing to give up a top 10 pick. There are other teams like Charlotte or Miami that might be interested but frankly don't have the assets. He's going to be a hard guy to trade.

Finding the right place / assets != no interest. There would be heavy interest.

[Jadoogar]

Pfftt...that's crap. There would be huge interest in Demar.

I'm guessing teams would want Demar but not for the price we're looking for. Which teams with top 10 picks would be looking for a derozan type player?
Brooklyn - no pick
Lakers - may not have their pick
Sixers - highly doubt it, they're still too far away imo
Suns - maybe but he plays the same position as Booker
Orlando - new GM, likely focused on rebuilding
Minnesota - maybe
New York - need to figure out Melo first, likely trying to rebuild
Dallas - yes
Sacramento - trying to rebuild
Pelicans - no pick this year

So i counted 3 teams that might be willing to give up a top 10 pick. There are other teams like Charlotte or Miami that might be interested but frankly don't have the assets. He's going to be a hard guy to trade.

Finding the right place / assets != no interest. There would be heavy interest.

Interest without the assets is kind of pointless. I have interest in Kate Upton

[Moose23]

Pfftt...that's crap. There would be huge interest in Demar.

I'm guessing teams would want Demar but not for the price we're looking for. Which teams with top 10 picks would be looking for a derozan type player?
Brooklyn - no pick
Lakers - may not have their pick
Sixers - highly doubt it, they're still too far away imo
Suns - maybe but he plays the same position as Booker
Orlando - new GM, likely focused on rebuilding
Minnesota - maybe
New York - need to figure out Melo first, likely trying to rebuild
Dallas - yes
Sacramento - trying to rebuild
Pelicans - no pick this year

So i counted 3 teams that might be willing to give up a top 10 pick. There are other teams like Charlotte or Miami that might be interested but frankly don't have the assets. He's going to be a hard guy to trade.

Finding the right place / assets != no interest. There would be heavy interest.

you stating there is, is no different that the ringer stating there isnt.

[LastNameEver]

Tank for RJ barrett

I literally watched that kid grow up and he didn't become good at basketball until his Dad's genes kicked in.
His mom also ran track, he's all genes.

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk

[PhilBlackson]

Tank for RJ barrett

I literally watched that kid grow up and he didn't become good at basketball until his Dad's genes kicked in.
His mom also ran track, he's all genes.

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk

That is pretty much the same story with Wiggins lol although I would say RB Jr seems like a far more fluid ballhandler than Wiggins was at the same age. Personally if we're going to tank my focus would be more on doing so to get either Kostas Antentkounmpo (who is supposed to be even bigger and more athletic than Giannis was at the same age if that's possible) or Kevin Knoxx.