Shams: Cleveland and Boston have agreement on deal to send Kyrie Irving to the Celtics for Isaiah Thomas package to Cavs

[Double Helix]

As others have said, it's less about whether the Celtics are a good team. They obviously will be. It's more about how much scarier and primed for a dynasty they could have been.

If you take 4 x top 6 draft picks (including a #1 overall pick, a #3 win and a likely top 4 next year) along with the #13 ranked PG in RPM and the #5 ranked SF in RPM and tons of cap space and end up with:

Jason Tatum (lesser Jabari Parker type of one-way talent)

Jaylen Brown (I like Brown more than Tatum due to his defensive upside but he might be more of rich man's Harrison Barnes and whose stats and impact next year are probably going to be close to what Powell provides for us next year. As a 3/4 mix I also won't be surprised if OG Anunoby becomes a similar caliber defender to Brown long-term. Brown would have the edge offensively though)

Al Horford (who's a 31 year old big man)

Gordon Hayward (who I see as having pretty comparable value to Derozan head-to-head. He's rarely got the better of Derozan when we've played Utah and they feel close despite what we see in RPM because of Derozan's defensive weakness. Slight edge to Hayward due to RPM but I think part of his impact edge came from playing with less talented backup wings in Utah overall than Derozan did over that same span)

Kyrie Irving (who is basically the flashier, more popular one-way offensive star PG they already had in I.T.)

Marcus Smart (who I honestly think Delon Wright will match or come close to matching in combo guard and backup PG impact next year)

It's far less terrifying both in the immediate future and long-term than it could have been. Many thought they might have had the assets to build the next great NBA dynasty.

Instead, it reminds me how amazing it is that we have a team that's pretty darn close in construction and short-term impact that was built without anywhere near the same amount of assets in the war chest, or anywhere near the kind of high draft picks or league history to draw talent toward.

[YogiStewart]

Put it this way — if someone gave you the option 2 years ago that with all of the Celts assets, they would come out with a core of Irving, Hayward, Horford, Brown and Tatum with zero frontcourt depth and significantly worse defensive depth, you'd take it. Even if they're slightly better than us (which I don't think they are personally, but it's definitely debatable), I don't see a Championship team in there. Considering all of the assets at Ainge's disposal, that's a very poor haul.

It's not even close to a championship team and this trade pretty much ensured that they will never get there. Just a brutal trade for the Celtics and that's even setting aside the fact that they just improved the Cavs (their primary competition) both next year and in the future.

Only downside for the Raptors that I can see here is if this deal is a factor in convincing LeBron to stay in Cleveland past this season. No other team will be winning the conference as long as he's still in it. I bet he winds up in LA, though.

one of the knocks about IT was that he was a human french fry and the game's physicalness would take its toll on him.
you can't be a 5'6" star playing in a 7' league and play into your 30s (nowadays). IT's hip is probably a big concern. the Engine Warning light's flashing and IT thinks he can still drive another 5 hrs to Kalamazoo

[Double Helix]

Put it this way — if someone gave you the option 2 years ago that with all of the Celts assets, they would come out with a core of Irving, Hayward, Horford, Brown and Tatum with zero frontcourt depth and significantly worse defensive depth, you'd take it. Even if they're slightly better than us (which I don't think they are personally, but it's definitely debatable), I don't see a Championship team in there. Considering all of the assets at Ainge's disposal, that's a very poor haul.

It's not even close to a championship team and this trade pretty much ensured that they will never get there. Just a brutal trade for the Celtics and that's even setting aside the fact that they just improved the Cavs (their primary competition) both next year and in the future.

Only downside for the Raptors that I can see here is if this deal is a factor in convincing LeBron to stay in Cleveland past this season. No other team will be winning the conference as long as he's still in it. I bet he winds up in LA, though.

one of the knocks about IT was that he was a human french fry and the game's physicalness would take its toll on him.
you can't be a 5'6" star playing in a 7' league and play into your 30s (nowadays). IT's hip is probably a big concern. the Engine Warning light's flashing and IT thinks he can still drive another 5 hrs to Kalamazoo

That's the thing I find interesting though. Kyrie Irving has played 6 years and half of them he was unable to exceed 59 games played out of 82. Perhaps less concerning than I.T. but if I was negotiating with Gilbert I would have brought the injury concerns of Kyrie up just as much.

Would love to know who the Celtics were bidding against and what the other offers were like that lead to this.

[Tim Horton]

Cavs has gotten more annoying for starters

[rapcity10]

As others have said, it's less about whether the Celtics are a good team. They obviously will be. It's more about how much scarier and primed for a dynasty they could have been.

If you take 4 x top 6 draft picks (including a #1 overall pick, a #3 win and a likely top 4 next year) along with the #13 ranked PG in RPM and the #5 ranked SF in RPM and tons of cap space and end up with:

Jason Tatum (lesser Jabari Parker type of one-way talent)

Jaylen Brown (I like Brown more than Tatum due to his defensive upside but he might be more of rich man's Harrison Barnes and whose stats and impact next year are probably going to be close to what Powell provides for us next year. As a 3/4 mix I also won't be surprised if OG Anunoby becomes a similar caliber defender to Brown long-term. Brown would have the edge offensively though)

Al Horford (who's a 31 year old big man)

Gordon Hayward (who I see as having pretty comparable value to Derozan head-to-head. He's rarely got the better of Derozan when we've played Utah and they feel close despite what we see in RPM because of Derozan's defensive weakness. Slight edge to Hayward due to RPM but I think part of his impact edge came from playing with less talented backup wings in Utah overall than Derozan did over that same span)

Kyrie Irving (who is basically the flashier, more popular one-way offensive star PG they already had in I.T.)

Marcus Smart (who I honestly think Delon Wright will match or come close to matching in combo guard and backup PG impact next year)

It's far less terrifying both in the immediate future and long-term than it could have been. Many thought they might have had the assets to build the next great NBA dynasty.

Instead, it reminds me how amazing it is that we have a team that's pretty darn close in construction and short-term impact that was built without anywhere near the same amount of assets in the war chest, or anywhere near the kind of high draft picks or league history to draw talent toward.

Wow where to begin. Like most people on this board I don't recall you ever saying the celtics could become a potential dynasty before this trade. First time I ever seen you type that. They were scary to
Begin with now there really scary. They got a 25 year old superstar, generational offensive talent, and now he's going to be playing under Brad Stevens, you know how much good that is going to do for Irving? It's a joke how scary that Is. They got 2 more years at a bargain contract for him, then when he's up for the max he'll be 27 entering his prime compared to a 5 9 30 year old wanting 200 million. Saves huge amounts of money, and future flexibility. Jayson Tatum as a healthy Jabari Parker clone? I think the celtics take that an run. Tatum also has the chance of becoming a Solid 2 way player, he's shown flashes of being a really good defender. Jaylen Brown is not a Harrison Barnes comparable, he's got the perfect NBA body, is 20 years old and ready to explode any second. He's a jimmy butler identical, and Butler said so himself. Perfect NBA body and way more and I mean way more dynamic than Norman Powell. And just stop comparing Marcus smart to delon wright it's a joke just stop. All in all, the celtics still have semi(crowder clone), Tatum, Memphis pick, clippers pick, all their own picks, brown, lakers/kings pick, smart, rozier, and the yabusule. There still loaded with blue chip prospects and blue chip assets. They have the best coaching asset in Brad Stevens as well. Got a 25 year generational a point guard. There fine. More than fine. Anthony Davis might be joining them very shortly as well.

[YogiStewart]

It's not even close to a championship team and this trade pretty much ensured that they will never get there. Just a brutal trade for the Celtics and that's even setting aside the fact that they just improved the Cavs (their primary competition) both next year and in the future.

Only downside for the Raptors that I can see here is if this deal is a factor in convincing LeBron to stay in Cleveland past this season. No other team will be winning the conference as long as he's still in it. I bet he winds up in LA, though.

one of the knocks about IT was that he was a human french fry and the game's physicalness would take its toll on him.
you can't be a 5'6" star playing in a 7' league and play into your 30s (nowadays). IT's hip is probably a big concern. the Engine Warning light's flashing and IT thinks he can still drive another 5 hrs to Kalamazoo

That's the thing I find interesting though. Kyrie Irving has played 6 years and half of them he was unable to exceed 59 games played out of 82. Perhaps less concerning than I.T. but if I was negotiating with Gilbert I would have brought the injury concerns of Kyrie up just as much.

Would love to know who the Celtics were bidding against and what the other offers were like that lead to this.

Kyrie having a history of fragility is a huge concern.
then again, we have Lowry as our enginedriver, so who are we to judge?

[rapcity10]

As others have said, it's less about whether the Celtics are a good team. They obviously will be. It's more about how much scarier and primed for a dynasty they could have been.

If you take 4 x top 6 draft picks (including a #1 overall pick, a #3 win and a likely top 4 next year) along with the #13 ranked PG in RPM and the #5 ranked SF in RPM and tons of cap space and end up with:

Jason Tatum (lesser Jabari Parker type of one-way talent)

Jaylen Brown (I like Brown more than Tatum due to his defensive upside but he might be more of rich man's Harrison Barnes and whose stats and impact next year are probably going to be close to what Powell provides for us next year. As a 3/4 mix I also won't be surprised if OG Anunoby becomes a similar caliber defender to Brown long-term. Brown would have the edge offensively though)

Al Horford (who's a 31 year old big man)

Gordon Hayward (who I see as having pretty comparable value to Derozan head-to-head. He's rarely got the better of Derozan when we've played Utah and they feel close despite what we see in RPM because of Derozan's defensive weakness. Slight edge to Hayward due to RPM but I think part of his impact edge came from playing with less talented backup wings in Utah overall than Derozan did over that same span)

Kyrie Irving (who is basically the flashier, more popular one-way offensive star PG they already had in I.T.)

Marcus Smart (who I honestly think Delon Wright will match or come close to matching in combo guard and backup PG impact next year)

It's far less terrifying both in the immediate future and long-term than it could have been. Many thought they might have had the assets to build the next great NBA dynasty.

Instead, it reminds me how amazing it is that we have a team that's pretty darn close in construction and short-term impact that was built without anywhere near the same amount of assets in the war chest, or anywhere near the kind of high draft picks or league history to draw talent toward.

Lmfaaaaao I just seen your last paragraph too? Are you kidding me? Are you serious right now? Put down the Pom poms please. Stop being a company man. We're no were near the cerltixcs right now or in the future outlook. Are you serious? There asset pool is still one of the richest in the league, and have two blue chip prospects. We're no where in the same tier as the celtics right now, that's a joke of a statement. Not right now and not in the future, put the Pom Pom downs.

[artsncrafts]

lulz I think Cleveland won this trade....but I think this is good for the Raptors that Bos doesnt have another top 4 pick.

[EJaggit]

Kyrie Irving will mesh well with Boston. Long term Cavs won the deal, but for now - Boston obviously got the better player in Irving.

[Bobby Plump]

Looking back at previous mega blockbuster NBA deals in which at least one bonafide All Star in his prime is dealt (Abdul Jabbar, Vince Carter, the first Garnett trade to the Celtics, Kevin Love to the Cavs, etc.), considering all the assets involved in these transactions, the team that received the "best" player is ultimately perceived to come out ahead at the end of the day. Kyrie is that guy in this case.

[sbsat]

The trade benefits both teams but I think the Cavs won this trade. They replaced kyrie with another allstar PG and got even more icing on the cake. They got a 2 way player in crowder and you know lebron will only maKe him look better offensively. Either way both these teams are better than us. The race in the East is clearly between the celtics and The cavs. Everybody else will be fighting for 3rd.

Is there room for both crowder and shump on the cavs roster? Seem like two very similar players. Given the cavs lack of depth at 5... im wondering if we could get shump or crowder.

[Saciid11]

Man I'm loving this trade for Cavs.. They give up the tin man for IT who to is better offensive player, plays with a bigger heart.. Cavs also get Crowder who is exactly the type of player they need to matchup against warriors.. Cavs also get top 5 pick next years draft plus a young center prospect..

I think Lebron is staying after these moves .

[Psubs]

The trade benefits both teams but I think the Cavs won this trade. They replaced kyrie with another allstar PG and got even more icing on the cake. They got a 2 way player in crowder and you know lebron will only maKe him look better offensively. Either way both these teams are better than us. The race in the East is clearly between the celtics and The cavs. Everybody else will be fighting for 3rd.

Is there room for both crowder and shump on the cavs roster? Seem like two very similar players. Given the cavs lack of depth at 5... im wondering if we could get shump or crowder.

Shumpert off the bench to help balance Calderon and Korver on the defensive end. Crowder plays SF. If the Cavs bring over Zizic, they have depth.

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/4017838/ante-zizic

http://www.espn.com/blog/nba/rumors/post/_/id/40795/nba-rumor-central-celtics-first-round-pick-ante-zizic-to-join-team-next-season?ex_cid=espnapi_public

I guess that 1% is him joining the Cavs.

[Lukeem]

The trade benefits both teams but I think the Cavs won this trade. They replaced kyrie with another allstar PG and got even more icing on the cake. They got a 2 way player in crowder and you know lebron will only maKe him look better offensively. Either way both these teams are better than us. The race in the East is clearly between the celtics and The cavs. Everybody else will be fighting for 3rd.

Is there room for both crowder and shump on the cavs roster? Seem like two very similar players. Given the cavs lack of depth at 5... im wondering if we could get shump or crowder.

cavs will play thompson, love and frye at center in different situations

could even play lebron at 5 in a very strong lineup of

lebron
crowder
shump/green/jr/korver /osman
shump/jr/rose
IT

crowder is a stronger defensive player with more versatility as well

[Saciid11]

God dammit. The one team I didn't want to see him on. Fk. FKFKFKFKKFKFK

Why? He's almost the same player IT was. And Boston gave up a king's ransom to get him.

People truly underrate the heart players like IT play with .. Even guy like Crowder plays with allot of heart. Other then Lebron, sometimes Tristan, Richard Jefferson nobody on that Cavs team showed any heart.

[Saciid11]

The trade benefits both teams but I think the Cavs won this trade. They replaced kyrie with another allstar PG and got even more icing on the cake. They got a 2 way player in crowder and you know lebron will only maKe him look better offensively. Either way both these teams are better than us. The race in the East is clearly between the celtics and The cavs. Everybody else will be fighting for 3rd.

Is there room for both crowder and shump on the cavs roster? Seem like two very similar players. Given the cavs lack of depth at 5... im wondering if we could get shump or crowder.

cavs will play thompson, love and frye at center in different situations

could even play lebron at 5 in a very strong lineup of

lebron
crowder
shump/green/jr/korver /osman
shump/jr/rose
IT

crowder is a stronger defensive player with more versatility as well

Cavs still need to improve that two guard position .. hopefully they sign Wade.

[Double Helix]

As others have said, it's less about whether the Celtics are a good team. They obviously will be. It's more about how much scarier and primed for a dynasty they could have been.

If you take 4 x top 6 draft picks (including a #1 overall pick, a #3 win and a likely top 4 next year) along with the #13 ranked PG in RPM and the #5 ranked SF in RPM and tons of cap space and end up with:

Jason Tatum (lesser Jabari Parker type of one-way talent)

Jaylen Brown (I like Brown more than Tatum due to his defensive upside but he might be more of rich man's Harrison Barnes and whose stats and impact next year are probably going to be close to what Powell provides for us next year. As a 3/4 mix I also won't be surprised if OG Anunoby becomes a similar caliber defender to Brown long-term. Brown would have the edge offensively though)

Al Horford (who's a 31 year old big man)

Gordon Hayward (who I see as having pretty comparable value to Derozan head-to-head. He's rarely got the better of Derozan when we've played Utah and they feel close despite what we see in RPM because of Derozan's defensive weakness. Slight edge to Hayward due to RPM but I think part of his impact edge came from playing with less talented backup wings in Utah overall than Derozan did over that same span)

Kyrie Irving (who is basically the flashier, more popular one-way offensive star PG they already had in I.T.)

Marcus Smart (who I honestly think Delon Wright will match or come close to matching in combo guard and backup PG impact next year)

It's far less terrifying both in the immediate future and long-term than it could have been. Many thought they might have had the assets to build the next great NBA dynasty.

Instead, it reminds me how amazing it is that we have a team that's pretty darn close in construction and short-term impact that was built without anywhere near the same amount of assets in the war chest, or anywhere near the kind of high draft picks or league history to draw talent toward.

Lmfaaaaao I just seen your last paragraph too? Are you kidding me? Are you serious right now? Put down the Pom poms please. Stop being a company man. We're no were near the cerltixcs right now or in the future outlook. Are you serious? There asset pool is still one of the richest in the league, and have two blue chip prospects. We're no where in the same tier as the celtics right now, that's a joke of a statement. Not right now and not in the future, put the Pom Pom downs.

You put your Celtics Pom poms down first. You and Moose23 seem higher on the trade for the Celtics than most of their board is! Lol.

The Celtics war chest of assets and cap space was widely seen as being once in a generation. An NBA dynasty was expected. They were going to land multiple top 10 players and have multiple top 3 phenoms while possibly accumulating even more assets from their eventual IT and Crowder deals.

To come out of all of that with a big 3 that looks only modestly better than our big 3, which we built with lotto picks outside of the top 6, and some trades involving lotto picks in the 8-13 range, is surprisingly anticlimactic. If the Raptors had all of those things going for them and ended up with that big 3 in an era of the Warriors along with not a single prospect who looks like a future top 20 talent... you'd be saying everything I (and most boarders on their board, and most people on twitter) are saying. Very few see this as anything but a huge overpay for a guy who analytically functions an awful lot like just a slightly better Isaiah Thomas. Same strength. Same huge defensive weakness.The Ringer might think it's okay but the Ringer is basically a Celtics homer propaganda outlet by Bill Simmons at this point in time. Right down to the green branding. I don't think he's hiding that.

[CoachD]

I know I'm in the minority on this, but I feel BOTH teams are now tangibly worse.

Boston's biggest issue has been their poor rebounding and last year, their poor defence.
Kyrie and Thomas are both bloody awful, so that's a wash, but Boston has now lost their two best defenders in Crowder and Bradley.

I also think that Kyrie is going to play with a chip on his shoulder and will marginalize the contributions of Hawword. I don't see Tatum or Brown able to replace what the vets that had last year brought. One day? Sure. This year? No.

The Celtics were already thin up fron and Zicic was supposed to be in their big man rotation. He's gone. Olynyk gone and Horford is getting older and already has shown signs of slowing.

On the Cavs side ..............

Forget for a second that we don't know if Thomas is healthy. That's a big if, but let's assume he is ...
Thomas is in a contract year and he's going to want to play EXACTLY THE SAME WAY and make his money. If he doesn't differ his offence to Lebron there is going to be a lot of trouble in paradise.

Kyrie also scored a ton off kick outs from Lebron, and IT is too streaky to be looked at as the same kind of outside shooter.

I think his scoring will fall significantly between his reduced usage rate, and greatly reduced minutes (they didn't sign D Rose to carry IT's bags. Dude is going to play) and fewer FTAs. No way will those driving lanes be open the way they were in Boston when he had nobody inside the key, and they stretched teams out.

So that begs the question ... if IT isn't scoring at a high rate ... what else is he doing to help your team win? The answer: Nothing.

Crowder is a hot head and has already publicly stated he doesn't want to be a bench player at this stage of his career... but in Cleveland, that's exactly what he will be.

With Crowder, RJ, Korver, Shump, JR there are not enough minutes to go around and a couple of guys are going to be pissed. If the guys that get pissed are one of LeBron's boys, then it's going to be even messier.

[Lukeem]

As others have said, it's less about whether the Celtics are a good team. They obviously will be. It's more about how much scarier and primed for a dynasty they could have been.

If you take 4 x top 6 draft picks (including a #1 overall pick, a #3 win and a likely top 4 next year) along with the #13 ranked PG in RPM and the #5 ranked SF in RPM and tons of cap space and end up with:

Jason Tatum (lesser Jabari Parker type of one-way talent)

Jaylen Brown (I like Brown more than Tatum due to his defensive upside but he might be more of rich man's Harrison Barnes and whose stats and impact next year are probably going to be close to what Powell provides for us next year. As a 3/4 mix I also won't be surprised if OG Anunoby becomes a similar caliber defender to Brown long-term. Brown would have the edge offensively though)

Al Horford (who's a 31 year old big man)

Gordon Hayward (who I see as having pretty comparable value to Derozan head-to-head. He's rarely got the better of Derozan when we've played Utah and they feel close despite what we see in RPM because of Derozan's defensive weakness. Slight edge to Hayward due to RPM but I think part of his impact edge came from playing with less talented backup wings in Utah overall than Derozan did over that same span)

Kyrie Irving (who is basically the flashier, more popular one-way offensive star PG they already had in I.T.)

Marcus Smart (who I honestly think Delon Wright will match or come close to matching in combo guard and backup PG impact next year)

It's far less terrifying both in the immediate future and long-term than it could have been. Many thought they might have had the assets to build the next great NBA dynasty.

Instead, it reminds me how amazing it is that we have a team that's pretty darn close in construction and short-term impact that was built without anywhere near the same amount of assets in the war chest, or anywhere near the kind of high draft picks or league history to draw talent toward.

Lmfaaaaao I just seen your last paragraph too? Are you kidding me? Are you serious right now? Put down the Pom poms please. Stop being a company man. We're no were near the cerltixcs right now or in the future outlook. Are you serious? There asset pool is still one of the richest in the league, and have two blue chip prospects. We're no where in the same tier as the celtics right now, that's a joke of a statement. Not right now and not in the future, put the Pom Pom downs.

1) so you actually think this celtics team is amywhere close to the best they could of been?

2) try reading a full post before responding to it. That along with the misuse of grade 2 words like there and their are such flagrant literacy problems it hurts any chances of coming across as intelligent.

3) saying wright is nowhere near smart but assuming semi as a crowder clone and brown as a butler clone makes you come across as a weak troll just arguing for the sake of arguing.

4)building a whole argument on how good they are because of all their unproven prospects and insinuating they will also somehow land anthony davis is pointless until they do it. if thats what they gave up for kyrie then everyone of their remaining potential pieces wouldnt be enough for davis

[Lukeem]

I know I'm in the minority on this, but I feel BOTH teams are now tangibly worse.

Boston's biggest issue has been their poor rebounding and last year, their poor defence.
Kyrie and Thomas are both bloody awful, so that's a wash, but Boston has now lost their two best defenders in Crowder and Bradley.

I also think that Kyrie is going to play with a chip on his shoulder and will marginalize the contributions of Hawword. I don't see Tatum or Brown able to replace what the vets that had last year brought. One day? Sure. This year? No.

The Celtics were already thin up fron and Zicic was supposed to be in their big man rotation. He's gone. Olynyk gone and Horford is getting older and already has shown signs of slowing.

On the Cavs side ..............

Forget for a second that we don't know if Thomas is healthy. That's a big if, but let's assume he is ...
Thomas is in a contract year and he's going to want to play EXACTLY THE SAME WAY and make his money. If he doesn't differ his offence to Lebron there is going to be a lot of trouble in paradise.

Kyrie also scored a ton off kick outs from Lebron, and IT is too streaky to be looked at as the same kind of outside shooter.

I think his scoring will fall significantly between his reduced usage rate, and greatly reduced minutes (they didn't sign D Rose to carry IT's bags. Dude is going to play) and fewer FTAs. No way will those driving lanes be open the way they were in Boston when he had nobody inside the key, and they stretched teams out.

So that begs the question ... if IT isn't scoring at a high rate ... what else is he doing to help your team win? The answer: Nothing.

Crowder is a hot head and has already publicly stated he doesn't want to be a bench player at this stage of his career... but in Cleveland, that's exactly what he will be.

With Crowder, RJ, Korver, Shump, JR there are not enough minutes to go around and a couple of guys are going to be pissed. If the guys that get pissed are one of LeBron's boys, then it's going to be even messier.

i really disagree with the cleveland analysis, but a lot of great points and i comoletlely agree with the boston side - avery, jae, kelly, amir, tyler could all be greatly missed.

for cleveland i think IT s health is really only concern.

if he is healthy he is a great scorer that can take over and not force lebron to carry so much.... same thing with crowder on the defensive end.

thompson
love
crowder
jr/shump/rose
IT

could easily go on runs with lebron actually getting a rest