Back on the treadmill

[anotherhomer]

How did people's opinions change from one preseason game to the next lol? Clearly players are trying things they worked on in the offseason. Siakam isn't going to be sitting at the three point line.

FVV I have no hope for. His game has been the same since he was a rookie.

Looking at the roster and we have 0 flexibility for our offense. No mid range or post game.

Then you take into account 6 of our top 9 players are under 6'4 so our defense will suffer immensely because of that.

Gonna be a long year so buckle up.

The Raptors are in a retool year which happens to teams when they have aging players.

They won't be as bad as people make them out to be.

This team will get significantly better next season while being a good team this season. Not many teams can pull that off.

the team will still be competitive
miami and mavs went through a re-tool for several years
raptors are going through theirs but will still remain competitive

my only hope is that nick nurse plays malachi

[WaltFrazier]

The defense clearly won't be as god as last year, without Gasol and Serge. Nurse can only work so much defensive magic, but now the players just aren't there.

So much talk about going small more, but our small lineup will be too small. "Small" lineups might be ok if you have a bunch of athletic 6'4 to 6'9 guys running around creating havoc, but our small backcourt with 2 six footers doesn't have that.

The half court offense is going to struggle big time with no inside game. Kyle will gt worn down from trying to carry the team so much.

[WaltFrazier]

Looking at the roster and we have 0 flexibility for our offense. No mid range or post game.

Then you take into account 6 of our top 9 players are under 6'4 so our defense will suffer immensely because of that.

Gonna be a long year so buckle up.

This is what bothers me. Not so much that we are not as good as last year, but that the roster is so poorly constructed, not enough athletic size.

[anotherhomer]

i wouldn't say poorly constructed, but more so organizational priority

FVV was considered a building block versus Serge, so they prioritized resigning him
i expect things to eventually be balanced out next year thru free-agency or trades

[Johnny Bball]

]

If someone is on team negative before the season starts that is mildly acceptable.
If someone like above goes on team negative after watching a preseason game they have went full dumbass.

This.

You had to know what this year was going to be. It was said over and over and over. You knew what the cap situation was, keep a clean cap, stay out of the repeater tax for the future. The whining because we aren’t going to win it all...I mean it’s one thing to be that guy.... But to not have either the patience or mental capacity to figure it out is another story.

[TheFutureMM]

Honestly, Masai + company and the last couple teams have done such a good job building up the brand of the city, organization, core players, etc that I'm totally OK just being a first or second round playoff team for the next two years as they figure out the right direction for the team (full tank or all in playoff team).

I'd love for Lowry to retire with us in the next two years as we make that transition - would be a great cap to this whole era.

[Anticon]

Looking at the roster and we have 0 flexibility for our offense. No mid range or post game.

Then you take into account 6 of our top 9 players are under 6'4 so our defense will suffer immensely because of that.

Gonna be a long year so buckle up.

This is what bothers me. Not so much that we are not as good as last year, but that the roster is so poorly constructed, not enough athletic size.

Roster construction takes time. If it's still like this in a year or two than it makes sense to be critical. But we just lost most of the big rotation a few weeks ago, it'll take time to rebuild it.

[seanbig]

Look at the Celtics

They have superstar (green) Tatum and got smoked by Brooklyn

[LastNameEver]

Presently constructed its another year of beating up on bottom feeder teams then early playoff exit with late pick.
A lot fans enjoy these things, i prefer something more end goal oriented.

[Danny1616]

Anyone who has been paying attention knew that we were taking a step back this year.

We're not gonna be second overall in the NBA every year. Cry about it.

The worst treadmill move would have been signing Serge and/or Marc (beyond this season) which would have limited our options going forward. Serge didn't want a one year contract. Marc didn't want to be a starting center.

We enjoyed having siakam and FVV at criminally undervalued salaries. This was the year that ended. Anyone paying attention knew it was coming.

We'll still be competitive but there's no chance in hell we place second overall. but relatively speaking....we're actually in an amazing spot to reload without having to suffer through 5 years of irrelevant basketball like most teams do after having an extended run of escalating quality.

Our 'step back' might only last a season. Not sure if people realize how rare that is.

Very insightful take. I disagree about the Ibaka part since re-signing him would have not ruined anything for us. He is an asset that almost every team would have traded for in the worst case. Guy was coming off his best season on the court and genuinely wanted to be here, which is a big problem for our city.

This might be an ugly season but things can change next offseason when we can go after tier 2 free agents and hope our young guys continue to grow. First things first, need to see Masai re-sign to actually believe.

A "big problem for our city." Umm...you realize we resigned Derozan, we resigned Lowry twice to long-term deals, and we already resigned Ibaka in 2017 on a three year deal. Even Lou Will said he wanted to stay but Masai didn't even give him an offer.

It was Masai who chose not to give Ibaka a two year deal despite that Ibaka loved the franchise.

Enough with this myth of a big problem keeping guys...as Masai said, "believe in yourself, believe in this city."

[Tor_Raps]

Anyone who has been paying attention knew that we were taking a step back this year.

We're not gonna be second overall in the NBA every year. Cry about it.

The worst treadmill move would have been signing Serge and/or Marc (beyond this season) which would have limited our options going forward. Serge didn't want a one year contract. Marc didn't want to be a starting center.

We enjoyed having siakam and FVV at criminally undervalued salaries. This was the year that ended. Anyone paying attention knew it was coming.

We'll still be competitive but there's no chance in hell we place second overall. but relatively speaking....we're actually in an amazing spot to reload without having to suffer through 5 years of irrelevant basketball like most teams do after having an extended run of escalating quality.

Our 'step back' might only last a season. Not sure if people realize how rare that is.

Very insightful take. I disagree about the Ibaka part since re-signing him would have not ruined anything for us. He is an asset that almost every team would have traded for in the worst case. Guy was coming off his best season on the court and genuinely wanted to be here, which is a big problem for our city.

This might be an ugly season but things can change next offseason when we can go after tier 2 free agents and hope our young guys continue to grow. First things first, need to see Masai re-sign to actually believe.

A "big problem for our city." Umm...you realize we resigned Derozan, we resigned Lowry twice to long-term deals, and we already resigned Ibaka in 2017 on a three year deal. Even Lou Will said he wanted to stay but Masai didn't even give him an offer.

It was Masai who chose not to give Ibaka a two year deal despite that Ibaka loved the franchise.

Enough with this myth of a big problem keeping guys...as Masai said, "believe in yourself, believe in this city."

Listen man... I love Toronto but only players who get traded here end up loving it. Theres a reason why our biggest free agent signing in team history is a joke.

American players have misconceptions that cant get changed unless they're forced or severely overpaid to be here. I'm just happy the league is trending more international which will help our case long term but with American born players, it is what it is.

[Danny1616]

Very insightful take. I disagree about the Ibaka part since re-signing him would have not ruined anything for us. He is an asset that almost every team would have traded for in the worst case. Guy was coming off his best season on the court and genuinely wanted to be here, which is a big problem for our city.

This might be an ugly season but things can change next offseason when we can go after tier 2 free agents and hope our young guys continue to grow. First things first, need to see Masai re-sign to actually believe.

A "big problem for our city." Umm...you realize we resigned Derozan, we resigned Lowry twice to long-term deals, and we already resigned Ibaka in 2017 on a three year deal. Even Lou Will said he wanted to stay but Masai didn't even give him an offer.

It was Masai who chose not to give Ibaka a two year deal despite that Ibaka loved the franchise.

Enough with this myth of a big problem keeping guys...as Masai said, "believe in yourself, believe in this city."

Listen man... I love Toronto but only players who get traded here end up loving it. Theres a reason why our biggest free agent signing in team history is a joke.

American players have misconceptions that cant get changed unless they're forced or severely overpaid to be here. I'm just happy the league is trending more international which will help our case long term but with American born players, it is what it is.

Okay, lol? How is this different from 90% of the league?

Name me one marquee free agent that the Chicago Bulls signed in free agency since Jordan retired? Carlos Boozer is probably the biggest name. Rose and Butler were both drafted by the team. Butler asked for a trade.

What about the Nuggets? Melo was drafted and requested a trade. Jokic and Murray were drafted by the team.

What about the Blazers? Clyde Drexler, Lillard, CJ, Aldridge were all drafted by them. Aldridge left the team in free agency.

What about the Sixers? Iverson, Igoudala, Embiid, Simmons etc. were all drafted by the team.

What about the Bucks? They drafted Ray Allen, Giannis and traded for Jrue. Ray Allen left in free agency.

What about the Pistons?

What about Dallas? They drafted Dirk, traded for Nash, drafted Luka, traded for Porzingis. Which top tier free agent has Cuban ever signed in free agency?


I mean it's still pretty rare to sign a superstar free agent unless you are the Heat, Knicks, LA or have Lebron, lol.


Also, do you not think that perceptions have shifted in the last 5 years? We have a championship, the 6ix is known everywhere, our team is linked with Drake, we have excellent management and coaching. Everyone knows we are a 1st class organization with incredible fans. Maybe 10 years ago you would be right, but not anymore.

[Tor_Raps]

A "big problem for our city." Umm...you realize we resigned Derozan, we resigned Lowry twice to long-term deals, and we already resigned Ibaka in 2017 on a three year deal. Even Lou Will said he wanted to stay but Masai didn't even give him an offer.

It was Masai who chose not to give Ibaka a two year deal despite that Ibaka loved the franchise.

Enough with this myth of a big problem keeping guys...as Masai said, "believe in yourself, believe in this city."

Listen man... I love Toronto but only players who get traded here end up loving it. Theres a reason why our biggest free agent signing in team history is a joke.

American players have misconceptions that cant get changed unless they're forced or severely overpaid to be here. I'm just happy the league is trending more international which will help our case long term but with American born players, it is what it is.

Okay, lol? How is this different from 90% of the league?

Name me one marquee free agent that the Chicago Bulls signed in free agency since Jordan retired? Carlos Boozer is probably the biggest name. Rose and Butler were both drafted by the team.

What about the Nuggets? Melo was drafted and requested a trade. Jokic and Murray were drafted by the team.

What about the Blazers? Clyde Drexler, Lillard, CJ, Aldridge were all drafted by them. Aldridge left the team in free agency.

What about the Sixers? Iverson, Igoudala, Embiid, Simmons etc. were all drafted by the team.

What about the Bucks? They drafted Ray Allen, Giannis and traded for Jrue. Ray Allen left in free agency.


I mean it's still pretty rare to sign a superstar free agent unless you are the Heat, Knicks, LA or have Lebron, lol.


Also, do you not think that perceptions have shifted in the last 5 years? We have a championship, the 6ix is known everywhere, our team is linked with Drake, we have excellent management and coaching. Everyone knows we are a 1st class organization with incredible fans. Maybe 10 years ago you would be right, but not anymore.

Its not about only signing free agents but having american superstar free agents demanding to come here.

And no, it has not changed with American players. We just had Kawhi leave us after winning a god damn title. Kawhis a different dude but that didn't do much to help the misconceptions.

We will have a lot of money next offseason so let's see how much progress we really made.

[Danny1616]

Listen man... I love Toronto but only players who get traded here end up loving it. Theres a reason why our biggest free agent signing in team history is a joke.

American players have misconceptions that cant get changed unless they're forced or severely overpaid to be here. I'm just happy the league is trending more international which will help our case long term but with American born players, it is what it is.

Okay, lol? How is this different from 90% of the league?

Name me one marquee free agent that the Chicago Bulls signed in free agency since Jordan retired? Carlos Boozer is probably the biggest name. Rose and Butler were both drafted by the team.

What about the Nuggets? Melo was drafted and requested a trade. Jokic and Murray were drafted by the team.

What about the Blazers? Clyde Drexler, Lillard, CJ, Aldridge were all drafted by them. Aldridge left the team in free agency.

What about the Sixers? Iverson, Igoudala, Embiid, Simmons etc. were all drafted by the team.

What about the Bucks? They drafted Ray Allen, Giannis and traded for Jrue. Ray Allen left in free agency.


I mean it's still pretty rare to sign a superstar free agent unless you are the Heat, Knicks, LA or have Lebron, lol.


Also, do you not think that perceptions have shifted in the last 5 years? We have a championship, the 6ix is known everywhere, our team is linked with Drake, we have excellent management and coaching. Everyone knows we are a 1st class organization with incredible fans. Maybe 10 years ago you would be right, but not anymore.

Its not about only signing free agents but having american superstar free agents demanding to come here.

And no, it has not changed with American players. We just had Kawhi leave us after winning a god damn title. Kawhis a different dude but that didn't do much to help the misconceptions.

We will have a lot of money next offseason so let's see how much progress we really made.

Dude, that issue is literally the same for 90% of the NBA, it's not at all exclusive to Toronto, lol.

Stop living like it's 2009, we are in 2020.

Name me one top tier free agent who Dallas has signed or publicly demanded they go to Dallas? Cuban is considered an incredible owner and GM. Dirk was drafted, they traded for Nash, they drafted Doncic and traded for Porzingis.

I also don't see top tier free agents being signed by Philly, Indiana, Milwaukee, Cleveland, Atlanta, Charlotte, Orlando, Washington, Chicago, Utah, Denver, New Orleans, OKC, Sacramento, Portland, Minnesota, Phoenix, Memphis, Dallas, Houston, Detroit and San Antonio LMAO (that's almost the entire league if you didn't notice). Any superstar player in the last 10 years that was on those teams was either drafted or traded to the team. I think Aldridge might be the exception when signed with San Antonio in 2016. But no one would dream to go to San Antonio unless they are a contender. Also, ironically, we were on Aldridge's short-list for free agent teams.

As for Kawhi, he would have left any team that wasn't in California. It wasn't a "Toronto" issue.

[bluerap23]

Very insightful take. I disagree about the Ibaka part since re-signing him would have not ruined anything for us. He is an asset that almost every team would have traded for in the worst case. Guy was coming off his best season on the court and genuinely wanted to be here, which is a big problem for our city.

This might be an ugly season but things can change next offseason when we can go after tier 2 free agents and hope our young guys continue to grow. First things first, need to see Masai re-sign to actually believe.

A "big problem for our city." Umm...you realize we resigned Derozan, we resigned Lowry twice to long-term deals, and we already resigned Ibaka in 2017 on a three year deal. Even Lou Will said he wanted to stay but Masai didn't even give him an offer.

It was Masai who chose not to give Ibaka a two year deal despite that Ibaka loved the franchise.

Enough with this myth of a big problem keeping guys...as Masai said, "believe in yourself, believe in this city."

Listen man... I love Toronto but only players who get traded here end up loving it. Theres a reason why our biggest free agent signing in team history is a joke.

American players have misconceptions that cant get changed unless they're forced or severely overpaid to be here. I'm just happy the league is trending more international which will help our case long term but with American born players, it is what it is.

Here is a fun exercise. Please name one organization outside of the Lakers and Heat that has become a championship team based on being a "free agent destination".

[Tor_Raps]

Okay, lol? How is this different from 90% of the league?

Name me one marquee free agent that the Chicago Bulls signed in free agency since Jordan retired? Carlos Boozer is probably the biggest name. Rose and Butler were both drafted by the team.

What about the Nuggets? Melo was drafted and requested a trade. Jokic and Murray were drafted by the team.

What about the Blazers? Clyde Drexler, Lillard, CJ, Aldridge were all drafted by them. Aldridge left the team in free agency.

What about the Sixers? Iverson, Igoudala, Embiid, Simmons etc. were all drafted by the team.

What about the Bucks? They drafted Ray Allen, Giannis and traded for Jrue. Ray Allen left in free agency.


I mean it's still pretty rare to sign a superstar free agent unless you are the Heat, Knicks, LA or have Lebron, lol.


Also, do you not think that perceptions have shifted in the last 5 years? We have a championship, the 6ix is known everywhere, our team is linked with Drake, we have excellent management and coaching. Everyone knows we are a 1st class organization with incredible fans. Maybe 10 years ago you would be right, but not anymore.

Its not about only signing free agents but having american superstar free agents demanding to come here.

And no, it has not changed with American players. We just had Kawhi leave us after winning a god damn title. Kawhis a different dude but that didn't do much to help the misconceptions.

We will have a lot of money next offseason so let's see how much progress we really made.

Dude, that issue is literally the same for 90% of the NBA, it's not at all exclusive to Toronto, lol.

Stop living like it's 2009, we are in 2020.

Name me one top tier free agent who Dallas has signed or publicly demanded they go to Dallas? Cuban is considered an incredible owner and GM. Dirk was drafted, they traded for Nash, they drafted Doncic and traded for Porzingis.

I also don't see top tier free agents being signed by Philly, Indiana, Milwaukee, Cleveland, Atlanta, Charlotte, Orlando, Washington, Chicago, Utah, Denver, New Orleans, OKC, Sacramento, Portland, Minnesota, Phoenix, Memphis, Dallas, Houston, Detroit and San Antonio LMAO (that's almost the entire league if you didn't notice). Any superstar player in the last 10 years that was on those teams was either drafted or traded to the team. I think Aldridge might be the exception when signed with San Antonio in 2016. But no one would dream to go to San Antonio unless they are a contender. Also, ironically, we were on Aldridge's short-list for free agent teams.

As for Kawhi, he would have left any team that wasn't in California. It wasn't a "Toronto" issue.

You make good points but I'm coming off the mindset that Toronto is a massive market that gets lumped in with the small franchises. We have had like 8 years of consistent winning so let's see how this upcoming offseason goes for us.

[Danny1616]

Its not about only signing free agents but having american superstar free agents demanding to come here.

And no, it has not changed with American players. We just had Kawhi leave us after winning a god damn title. Kawhis a different dude but that didn't do much to help the misconceptions.

We will have a lot of money next offseason so let's see how much progress we really made.

Dude, that issue is literally the same for 90% of the NBA, it's not at all exclusive to Toronto, lol.

Stop living like it's 2009, we are in 2020.

Name me one top tier free agent who Dallas has signed or publicly demanded they go to Dallas? Cuban is considered an incredible owner and GM. Dirk was drafted, they traded for Nash, they drafted Doncic and traded for Porzingis.

I also don't see top tier free agents being signed by Philly, Indiana, Milwaukee, Cleveland, Atlanta, Charlotte, Orlando, Washington, Chicago, Utah, Denver, New Orleans, OKC, Sacramento, Portland, Minnesota, Phoenix, Memphis, Dallas, Houston, Detroit and San Antonio LMAO (that's almost the entire league if you didn't notice). Any superstar player in the last 10 years that was on those teams was either drafted or traded to the team. I think Aldridge might be the exception when signed with San Antonio in 2016. But no one would dream to go to San Antonio unless they are a contender. Also, ironically, we were on Aldridge's short-list for free agent teams.

As for Kawhi, he would have left any team that wasn't in California. It wasn't a "Toronto" issue.

You make good points but I'm coming off the mindset that Toronto is a massive market that gets lumped in with the small franchises. We have had like 8 years of consistent winning so let's see how this upcoming offseason goes for us.

I agree somewhat with that. Yes, I believe we are now seen in a different light compared to 6-7 years ago. We built a culture and identity that we never had before. That's why guys like Lowry and Derozan wanted to stay here whereas earlier guys like VC and Bosh left.

[Morse Code]

Honestly, Masai + company and the last couple teams have done such a good job building up the brand of the city, organization, core players, etc that I'm totally OK just being a first or second round playoff team for the next two years as they figure out the right direction for the team (full tank or all in playoff team).

I'd love for Lowry to retire with us in the next two years as we make that transition - would be a great cap to this whole era.

Agreed, although I’d like to make that decision quicker than usual, because these next 2 drafts have the potential to be historically great. Not to mention the space we have that we could use to absorb contracts in exchange for picks. We’ve never been in such a good position to make this choice before, especially since we could do it all by not intentionally tanking since we actually have young guys that need minutes to get better (TD, Flynn, Matt, OG, arguably Boucher, etc) and it wouldn’t matter if we overachieved because the picks we have would be from trading pascal, Fred, Kyle etc. It’s the perfect opportunity to dive full force into a rebuild with minimal risk, while the winning habits are already instilled in our young guys, so we wouldn’t be sacrificing what we’ve built over the last 5-10 years either.

[WaltFrazier]

Okay, lol? How is this different from 90% of the league?

Name me one marquee free agent that the Chicago Bulls signed in free agency since Jordan retired? Carlos Boozer is probably the biggest name. Rose and Butler were both drafted by the team. Butler asked for a trade.

What about the Nuggets? Melo was drafted and requested a trade. Jokic and Murray were drafted by the team.

What about the Blazers? Clyde Drexler, Lillard, CJ, Aldridge were all drafted by them. Aldridge left the team in free agency.

What about the Sixers? Iverson, Igoudala, Embiid, Simmons etc. were all drafted by the team.

What about the Bucks? They drafted Ray Allen, Giannis and traded for Jrue. Ray Allen left in free agency.

What about the Pistons?

What about Dallas? They drafted Dirk, traded for Nash, drafted Luka, traded for Porzingis. Which top tier free agent has Cuban ever signed in free agency?


I mean it's still pretty rare to sign a superstar free agent unless you are the Heat, Knicks, LA or have Lebron, lol.

Also, do you not think that perceptions have shifted in the last 5 years? We have a championship, the 6ix is known everywhere, our team is linked with Drake, we have excellent management and coaching. Everyone knows we are a 1st class organization with incredible fans. Maybe 10 years ago you would be right, but not anymore.

Your last point, about TO's improved perception, is negated by the previous points. Just as many other teams never sign a top FA, neither do we. So whether or not NBA players respect Masai, like Drake, respect the 2019 title, like the city means very little, except as a feel good thing.

[Danny1616]

Okay, lol? How is this different from 90% of the league?

Name me one marquee free agent that the Chicago Bulls signed in free agency since Jordan retired? Carlos Boozer is probably the biggest name. Rose and Butler were both drafted by the team. Butler asked for a trade.

What about the Nuggets? Melo was drafted and requested a trade. Jokic and Murray were drafted by the team.

What about the Blazers? Clyde Drexler, Lillard, CJ, Aldridge were all drafted by them. Aldridge left the team in free agency.

What about the Sixers? Iverson, Igoudala, Embiid, Simmons etc. were all drafted by the team.

What about the Bucks? They drafted Ray Allen, Giannis and traded for Jrue. Ray Allen left in free agency.

What about the Pistons?

What about Dallas? They drafted Dirk, traded for Nash, drafted Luka, traded for Porzingis. Which top tier free agent has Cuban ever signed in free agency?


I mean it's still pretty rare to sign a superstar free agent unless you are the Heat, Knicks, LA or have Lebron, lol.

Also, do you not think that perceptions have shifted in the last 5 years? We have a championship, the 6ix is known everywhere, our team is linked with Drake, we have excellent management and coaching. Everyone knows we are a 1st class organization with incredible fans. Maybe 10 years ago you would be right, but not anymore.

Your last point, about TO's improved perception, is negated by the previous points. Just as many other teams never sign a top FA, neither do we. So whether or not NBA players respect Masai, like Drake, respect the 2019 title, like the city means very little, except as a feel good thing.

That's fair, but I'm saying we don't know yet the ramifications of our title run and the last half decade of excellence. It's not often you have cap flexibility and timing to get even get a top tier superstar in free agency.