Elephant in the room but isn't Barnes suppose to be getting better?

[Naysorn]

Dream off-season would be Giannis demanding out and we somehow manage to get him and Portis for like Barnes/Poeltl

IQ/Ochai/Ingram/Portis/Giannis
Shead/RJ/Walter/Boucher/Sign a C

+ 2025 1st

That'd be wild, man.

Pipe dream

Why would Giannis choose Toronto when he can go to a clear cut contender?

[XTC]

i think scottie is just a draymond green, not the worst

He’s nowhere near as good as Draymond. Please stop this foolish comp.

people just see the lack of scoring and good playmaking and make the Draymond comp. Draymond is one of the smartest defenders in history, he basically popularized the small ball center position. Scottie is a good defender but not transcendent.

Simply put Barnes is a good defender... Draymond is an alltime great defender. The best defender of his generation.

Barnes doesn't have the IQ that Draymond possessed offensively or defensively. Draymond was a legit small ball 5, who could run a offense.

Put this into context peak Draymond was 2016 and he averaged 14.0/9.5/7.4/1.5/1.4, during the same season Lebron averaged 25.3/7.4/6.8/1.4/0.6... Draymond averaged more rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks than Lebron f'n James over an entire season... Oh and he had the highest +/- in NBA history during that season being a +26.3... he was 7th in MVP voting.

Draymond Green was a monster, if Barnes is that good, we have nothing to worry about.

[tsherkin]

Dream off-season would be Giannis demanding out and we somehow manage to get him and Portis for like Barnes/Poeltl

IQ/Ochai/Ingram/Portis/Giannis
Shead/RJ/Walter/Boucher/Sign a C

+ 2025 1st

That'd be wild, man.

Pipe dream

Why would Giannis choose Toronto when he can go to a clear cut contender?

Of course it's a pipe dream. Take your realism elsewhere, lol.

[Indeed]

It's a no brainer if he were to become available but I don't think it's likely. We are however positioned pretty well to capitalize if it were to become an actual opportunity.

I don't think it likely/realistic at all, but it's fun to think about!

I don't call those "get into the paint" if those are just contested shots, particularly those with hands on the face.

They are literally him in the paint. They count. Do they always collapse the D effectively? No, but that wasn't really what we were initially discussing, in fairness. The issue we were discussing was his ability to get there and generate a shot, which he can clearly do.

Most of his shots are hands on the face. And he has problem getting south bound, the last few games I watched, he can NOT muscle forward, because teams know he will bully, so their defenders are bigger (if against stronger teams).

It's exactly what he does, though. He gets fairly deep into the paint primarily on the basis of his shoulders and some developing hesitation moves, coupled to screen entry.

Maybe watch again the recent games, I don't see him getting to the paint, because he doesn't have moves nor shooting. His only way is really shoot the ball from 3, so that he can get a better first step.

Against Utah, he only took 4 shots OUTSIDE of the paint. He had 10 shots inside of 10 feet. He took 16 shots total.

Against Phoenix, 13 shots, 10 of them in the paint, 9 inside 10 feet, 7 of which came at 4 feet or closer.

Against Portland, 11 shots, 2 outside of the paint. One right on the FT line, 8 of them south of the bottom of the circle (9 feet and closer), 7 of them inside 6 feet.

He's been living in the key, man. His trouble is FINISHING; it really isn't an issue for him getting there.

Those are just bad shots, ANYONE could have take them with low efficiency, just that he got GREEN lights to do it, it doesn't mean those are shots suppose to take in general as the shot in the paint.

If you claim he can generate a shot that way, everyone would able to create their own shot. If you are not getting a clean look, that is a bad shot that in general would not be taken. Those shots I would not qualify as shot in the paint, because others don't get the green light to, not because they can't and claim they can generate their own shot.

[LoveMyRaps]

i think scottie is just a draymond green, not the worst

He’s nowhere near as good as Draymond. Please stop this foolish comp.

people just see the lack of scoring and good playmaking and make the Draymond comp. Draymond is one of the smartest defenders in history, he basically popularized the small ball center position. Scottie is a good defender but not transcendent.

Draymond is also the better outside shooter. He's a 32% career 3pt shooter, compared to 30% from Scottie.

[tsherkin]

Those are just bad shots, ANYONE could have take them with low efficiency, just that he got GREEN lights to do it, it doesn't mean those are shots suppose to take in general as the shot in the paint.

Nope, this is a goalpost shift.

He's getting to the spot. That was the contention, and that's what's happening.

If you claim he can generate a shot that way, everyone would able to create their own shot. If you are not getting a clean look, that is a bad shot that in general would not be taken. Those shots I would not qualify as shot in the paint, because others don't get the green light to, not because they can't and claim they can generate their own shot.

Okay, so we're back to silly-buggers stuff. So again, you've now acknowledged that he gets to the spots. So we can set aside any issue actually getting there, because you're complaining now about the nature of the shots he's taking. So let's look at those.

Phoenix. First look, transition layup.

Then he had a seal inside, got the hi-lo and got blocked when he went up to put it in. Good look, didn't have the explosion to get there fast enough. Still a good look. Next, a DHO and a drive back the other way, but called for a charge. Got deep into the paint and it would have been a good look. Good left side drive from the point, got into the middle, TOV on a shuffle pass, but he was in the bottom half of the circle. It was a good move, bad pass.

Next, a left-to-right dribble drive, turned into a spin, pulled up right outside the RA and couldn't finish a quality look (then he got the ORB, made a kickout and his guy hit a 3). Excellent move, just couldn't finish.

Then a transition drive where he got fouled.

Transition, received the pass, left-hand layup finish. Then a left-side drive, pulled up with a foot in the paint for a lefty floater. Probably should have hit the guy in the far corner with a skip pass, because he basically had 3 guys on him. That wasn't an especially good look.

Transition, just outside the key, drop pass from Shead, 2-handed dunk.

Lefty drive off a clever dribble move, lefty finish at the rim. Good look.

Pull-up at the bottom edge of the circle, pivot, muscled up a shot. 50/50 on that one. No one else was particularly open, nor in good position to receive a pass. He pivoted a bit and then forced it up with strength. BLeh shot, but somewhat required.

And that's not accounting for the baseline shuffle pass he made for the Robinson dunk. Or the nice pass to Castleton in transition, etc.


The TL;DR here is that you're not correct. He gets a bunch of good looks out of the deal. He gets the odd bad look, which isn't surprising because he isn't an explosive athlete and he IS shouldering a significant offensive burden, but he's actually not really having that much trouble generating decent looks.

[GLF]

Those are just bad shots, ANYONE could have take them with low efficiency, just that he got GREEN lights to do it, it doesn't mean those are shots suppose to take in general as the shot in the paint.

Nope, this is a goalpost shift.

He's getting to the spot. That was the contention, and that's what's happening.

If you claim he can generate a shot that way, everyone would able to create their own shot. If you are not getting a clean look, that is a bad shot that in general would not be taken. Those shots I would not qualify as shot in the paint, because others don't get the green light to, not because they can't and claim they can generate their own shot.

Okay, so we're back to silly-buggers stuff. So again, you've now acknowledged that he gets to the spots. So we can set aside any issue actually getting there, because you're complaining now about the nature of the shots he's taking. So let's look at those.

Phoenix. First look, transition layup.

Then he had a seal inside, got the hi-lo and got blocked when he went up to put it in. Good look, didn't have the explosion to get there fast enough. Still a good look. Next, a DHO and a drive back the other way, but called for a charge. Got deep into the paint and it would have been a good look. Good left side drive from the point, got into the middle, TOV on a shuffle pass, but he was in the bottom half of the circle. It was a good move, bad pass.

Next, a left-to-right dribble drive, turned into a spin, pulled up right outside the RA and couldn't finish a quality look (then he got the ORB, made a kickout and his guy hit a 3). Excellent move, just couldn't finish.

Then a transition drive where he got fouled.

Transition, received the pass, left-hand layup finish. Then a left-side drive, pulled up with a foot in the paint for a lefty floater. Probably should have hit the guy in the far corner with a skip pass, because he basically had 3 guys on him. That wasn't an especially good look.

Transition, just outside the key, drop pass from Shead, 2-handed dunk.

Lefty drive off a clever dribble move, lefty finish at the rim. Good look.

Pull-up at the bottom edge of the circle, pivot, muscled up a shot. 50/50 on that one. No one else was particularly open, nor in good position to receive a pass. He pivoted a bit and then forced it up with strength. BLeh shot, but somewhat required.

And that's not accounting for the baseline shuffle pass he made for the Robinson dunk. Or the nice pass to Castleton in transition, etc.


The TL;DR here is that you're not correct. He gets a bunch of good looks out of the deal. He gets the odd bad look, which isn't surprising because he isn't an explosive athlete and he IS shouldering a significant offensive burden, but he's actually not really having that much trouble generating decent looks.

Definitely agree with this. Which is why I hated how much he was settling for 3s earlier in the year, bc it was in fact settling. Even with his limited athleticism he is still able to bully his way into the paint when he puts his mind to it and it aggressive. More of that please along with improvements on his midrange shot. My question to you is, do you think it’s at least better that he’s able to get to his shots and just can’t finish than not being able to get to these shots at all? I would like to think it’s easier to work on your finishing ability than learn how to get to your spots. Don’t know how true that is

[tsherkin]

My question to you is, do you think it’s at least better that he’s able to get to his shots and just can’t finish than not being able to get to these shots at all? I would like to think it’s easier to work on your finishing ability than learn how to get to your spots. Don’t know how true that is

I suspect that his chances of improving his finishing are higher than suddenly developing the ability to get there in the first place.

And I have some hopes for him as an off-ball guy cutting around the paint, and in transition, because he already seems to do that pretty well. The trick is in figuring out the right ratio of letting him play on-ball to working him without the ball so that he's efficient enough that he isnt' tanking our offense and we're still letting him function enough as a playmaker.

EDIT: I'd love to see him more as the screener in the PnR, if he can figure out competent screens.

[GLF]

My question to you is, do you think it’s at least better that he’s able to get to his shots and just can’t finish than not being able to get to these shots at all? I would like to think it’s easier to work on your finishing ability than learn how to get to your spots. Don’t know how true that is

I suspect that his chances of improving his finishing are higher than suddenly developing the ability to get there in the first place.

And I have some hopes for him as an off-ball guy cutting around the paint, and in transition, because he already seems to do that pretty well. The trick is in figuring out the right ratio of letting him play on-ball to working him without the ball so that he's efficient enough that he isnt' tanking our offense and we're still letting him function enough as a playmaker.

EDIT: I'd love to see him more as the screener in the PnR, if he can figure out competent screens.

Yes couldn’t agree more. He can still figure out a way to be effective for us on offence. I think this season hopefully opened a lot of people’s eyes (hopefully the coaching staff more than anyone else) to Scottie’s limitations on offence and what the best spots to put him in are. I think even with him being a bad 3 point shooter he’ll still be better next season.

With BI and a season of tape of him being the number 1 option and failing under his belt, I hope he and the coaching staff learn from it and figure out a plan for him moving forward. To me Scottie can still be a star player even with his offensive limitations. We just have to use him correctly, bc it’s not like he can’t score at all. He just needs to find a way to be more efficient.

I think playing closer to the basket, cutting, moving without the ball, being a hub on offence, transition and like you said being a better screener can all assist in that goal. He is not a number 1 option and he will most likely never be a good 3 point shooter, but that’s okay in my eyes. He still a really good player who will get better and any championship team can use a player like him.

[tsherkin]

I think playing closer to the basket, cutting, moving without the ball, being a hub on offence, transition and like you said being a better screener can all assist in that goal. He is not a number 1 option and he will most likely never be a good 3 point shooter, but that’s okay in my eyes. He still a really good player who will get better and any championship team can use a player like him.

He has lots of ways to contribute, we just need to step away from using him as a focal on-ball guy, basically, yeah.

[YogurtProducer]

Dream off-season would be Giannis demanding out and we somehow manage to get him and Portis for like Barnes/Poeltl

IQ/Ochai/Ingram/Portis/Giannis
Shead/RJ/Walter/Boucher/Sign a C

+ 2025 1st

That'd be wild, man.

Pipe dream

Why would Giannis choose Toronto when he can go to a clear cut contender?

1) Giannis is signed for 3 years. He doesnt hold all the cards
2) How many other teams have the ability to offer a young stud who has been an all-star locked up for 5 years?
3) Masai / Giannis connection??

I know it wont happen. Just day dreaming at work

[TheGeneral99]

The hope is that:

1) He improves his mid-range arsenal
2) He improves his 3 point shooting
3) He improves his ball handling
4) He becomes more aggressive

If he can do at least 2/4 the next year we should have a perennial all-star on our hands.

[Indeed]

Those are just bad shots, ANYONE could have take them with low efficiency, just that he got GREEN lights to do it, it doesn't mean those are shots suppose to take in general as the shot in the paint.

Nope, this is a goalpost shift.

He's getting to the spot. That was the contention, and that's what's happening.

If you claim he can generate a shot that way, everyone would able to create their own shot. If you are not getting a clean look, that is a bad shot that in general would not be taken. Those shots I would not qualify as shot in the paint, because others don't get the green light to, not because they can't and claim they can generate their own shot.

Okay, so we're back to silly-buggers stuff. So again, you've now acknowledged that he gets to the spots. So we can set aside any issue actually getting there, because you're complaining now about the nature of the shots he's taking. So let's look at those.

Phoenix. First look, transition layup.

Then he had a seal inside, got the hi-lo and got blocked when he went up to put it in. Good look, didn't have the explosion to get there fast enough. Still a good look. Next, a DHO and a drive back the other way, but called for a charge. Got deep into the paint and it would have been a good look. Good left side drive from the point, got into the middle, TOV on a shuffle pass, but he was in the bottom half of the circle. It was a good move, bad pass.

Next, a left-to-right dribble drive, turned into a spin, pulled up right outside the RA and couldn't finish a quality look (then he got the ORB, made a kickout and his guy hit a 3). Excellent move, just couldn't finish.

Then a transition drive where he got fouled.

Transition, received the pass, left-hand layup finish. Then a left-side drive, pulled up with a foot in the paint for a lefty floater. Probably should have hit the guy in the far corner with a skip pass, because he basically had 3 guys on him. That wasn't an especially good look.

Transition, just outside the key, drop pass from Shead, 2-handed dunk.

Lefty drive off a clever dribble move, lefty finish at the rim. Good look.

Pull-up at the bottom edge of the circle, pivot, muscled up a shot. 50/50 on that one. No one else was particularly open, nor in good position to receive a pass. He pivoted a bit and then forced it up with strength. BLeh shot, but somewhat required.

And that's not accounting for the baseline shuffle pass he made for the Robinson dunk. Or the nice pass to Castleton in transition, etc.


The TL;DR here is that you're not correct. He gets a bunch of good looks out of the deal. He gets the odd bad look, which isn't surprising because he isn't an explosive athlete and he IS shouldering a significant offensive burden, but he's actually not really having that much trouble generating decent looks.

No, I don't think those are his spots, which is why I made those claim.
I saw them all here, yes, I am aware, and those are against Ighodaro (40th pick rookie)
https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CF=SHOT_TYPE*E*2PT&CFID=&CFPARAMS=&ContextMeasure=FGA&EndPeriod=0&EndRange=28800&GameID=0022400991&PlayerID=1630567&RangeType=0&Season=2024-25&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&StartPeriod=0&StartRange=0&TeamID=1610612761&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

1) Transition (made) - sure he can bully a rookie that is not filled out and get to his spot on transition
2) Half court (missed) - this is definitely not his spot, he is 2 steps behind, or 2 steps in front of 3 (-1)
3) Transition (missed) - this is his spot, but on semi-transition, posting up against a smaller player
4) Half court (missed) - Not self generation
5) Half court (missed) - this is not his spot? I think his spot would be another step closer, but you can count this (1)
6) Tip (missed) - Not self generation
7) Transition (made)
8) Half court (missed) - this is his spot, help defense altered his shot (2)
9) Transition (made)
10) Half court (made) - this is his spot (3)
11) Half court (missed) - this is not his spot, clearly tried to bully for another step for space, but failed (-2)

To me, he only got to his spot 3 out of 5 (and one of them I would disagree).

[tsherkin]

[quote="Indeed"
No, I don't think those are his spots, which is why I made those claim.
[/quote]

This is pretty clearly untrue, though.

To me, he only got to his spot 3 out of 5 (and one of them I would disagree).

It seems we have a fundamental disagreement over what Scottie is trying to do and what he is achieving. He's clearly getting into the paint in volume, and very frequently getting deep. He is consistently getting to certain spots and trying to make his moves from there, again and again and again. To me, that's him getting to his spots, particularly since he's mostly able to get decent looks from there. His touch is a problem right now, but you're spinning a fanciful tale about how all of his shots are heavily contested, and that's just not true. You're complaining that he's doing it against a rookie, but these are the shots and spots he's been going for all year, time and time again.

If you can't accept that, then I suppose we have nothing more to say to one another on the subject.

[Scase]

My question to you is, do you think it’s at least better that he’s able to get to his shots and just can’t finish than not being able to get to these shots at all? I would like to think it’s easier to work on your finishing ability than learn how to get to your spots. Don’t know how true that is

I suspect that his chances of improving his finishing are higher than suddenly developing the ability to get there in the first place.

And I have some hopes for him as an off-ball guy cutting around the paint, and in transition, because he already seems to do that pretty well. The trick is in figuring out the right ratio of letting him play on-ball to working him without the ball so that he's efficient enough that he isnt' tanking our offense and we're still letting him function enough as a playmaker.

EDIT: I'd love to see him more as the screener in the PnR, if he can figure out competent screens.

This is one of those things that have absolutely confounded me, in 4 years we STILL haven't taught him how to set a proper screen. He would feast in the PnR, and all we do is force feed him 3pt shots most of the year, and all his off season training is shooting a terrible 3.

Scotties development is the poster child for square peg, round hole. He's not going to be a top 5 player, but sweet christ, the raptors are definitely at fault for him not getting better.

[tsherkin]

Scotties development is the poster child for square peg, round hole. He's not going to be a top 5 player, but sweet christ, the raptors are definitely at fault for him not getting better.

We'll have to see what comes from here, I guess. He has options for development and improvement. We just need to shake the idea that he's going to RUN our offense in volume, I suspect.

[Scase]

Scotties development is the poster child for square peg, round hole. He's not going to be a top 5 player, but sweet christ, the raptors are definitely at fault for him not getting better.

We'll have to see what comes from here, I guess. He has options for development and improvement. We just need to shake the idea that he's going to RUN our offense in volume, I suspect.

PG Scottie needs to be brought out back and shot, point forward I think still has some solid legs, but the whole 3p shooter thing needs to be taken out back with PG Scottie.

Trying to add new things to his game that he isn't good at, before he's even very good at the things he has aptitude for, is just dumb. It's 4 years, we need to start focusing 90% of the development on the stuff he can do at an acceptable/good level, and leave this pipe dream stuff aside. He still has the chance to be a very high impact player on a great team, but with the way we are managing him, he's going to end up as a mid tier to fringe AS level starter.

Just a complete disaster of a developmental job.

[tsherkin]

but the whole 3p shooter thing needs to be taken out back with PG Scottie.

Yeah, he can't really shoot the 3, that's pretty firmly established by now.

Just a complete disaster of a developmental job.

It hasn't been ideal. But he can rebound, he can defend and he's got some playmaking tools which are useful. What we need is to figure out how to make him something other than a giant waste of scoring possessions.

[Indeed]

No, I don't think those are his spots, which is why I made those claim.

This is pretty clearly untrue, though.

To me, he only got to his spot 3 out of 5 (and one of them I would disagree).

It seems we have a fundamental disagreement over what Scottie is trying to do and what he is achieving. He's clearly getting into the paint in volume, and very frequently getting deep. He is consistently getting to certain spots and trying to make his moves from there, again and again and again. To me, that's him getting to his spots, particularly since he's mostly able to get decent looks from there. His touch is a problem right now, but you're spinning a fanciful tale about how all of his shots are heavily contested, and that's just not true. You're complaining that he's doing it against a rookie, but these are the shots and spots he's been going for all year, time and time again.

If you can't accept that, then I suppose we have nothing more to say to one another on the subject.

Indeed, I disagree getting into the paint / his spot means "get into the paint" vs "get into the paint for an open shot". Same thing I argued for his playmaking in "passing to someone for assist" vs "making someone open and passing to them for assist".

You can be a high-end connector, but the value is far from someone who get others open and pass to them, which I also imply here get into the paint, but the value is far from someone who get into the paint for an open shot (with separation).

[Indeed]

My question to you is, do you think it’s at least better that he’s able to get to his shots and just can’t finish than not being able to get to these shots at all? I would like to think it’s easier to work on your finishing ability than learn how to get to your spots. Don’t know how true that is

I suspect that his chances of improving his finishing are higher than suddenly developing the ability to get there in the first place.

And I have some hopes for him as an off-ball guy cutting around the paint, and in transition, because he already seems to do that pretty well. The trick is in figuring out the right ratio of letting him play on-ball to working him without the ball so that he's efficient enough that he isnt' tanking our offense and we're still letting him function enough as a playmaker.

EDIT: I'd love to see him more as the screener in the PnR, if he can figure out competent screens.

This is one of those things that have absolutely confounded me, in 4 years we STILL haven't taught him how to set a proper screen. He would feast in the PnR, and all we do is force feed him 3pt shots most of the year, and all his off season training is shooting a terrible 3.

Scotties development is the poster child for square peg, round hole. He's not going to be a top 5 player, but sweet christ, the raptors are definitely at fault for him not getting better.

Even he set proper screen, he won't be effective without playing at C. This is why I believe he is not taught into this, because his priority would be spacing the floor and making the pass at the top, until we found this is not effective neither.