OT - Pascal is the First Scoring Option on a Contender - Apologize To Pascal

[tsherkin]

No apologies.

He shines in scenarios when he's the 3rd or 4th option.
As the #1 he choked. No denying it. Just look back at the tapes on youtube

Hope he wins the ship though

So who are the #2 and #3 options on the Pacers?

Haliburton is very clearly their focal offensive player. In the RS, Siakam took about 1.5 more FGA/g to score about 1.5 more PPG, which isn't that impressive when you consider Haliburton being both more efficient AND their primary playmaker. And, of course, that almost 60% of Siakam's 2pt buckets are assisted in this postseason (and obviously nearly 100% of his 3s).

Something to consider.

[Tripod]

24-17 when they traded for Siakam
23-18 the rest of last season with Siakam
47-35 total last season
50-32 this season

There was not this huge jump...until the playoffs. He has certainly helped them there, but they also have benefited from opponents injuries and jumped on them. That's what you want. Plus they all have another year of continuity and internal development. That matters. They play as a real team....not sitting around watching while 1 guy plays iso all game.

It's great to watch.

[vini_vidi_vici]

No apologies.

He shines in scenarios when he's the 3rd or 4th option.
As the #1 he choked. No denying it. Just look back at the tapes on youtube

Hope he wins the ship though

So who are the #2 and #3 options on the Pacers?

Haliburton is very clearly their focal offensive player. In the RS, Siakam took about 1.5 more FGA/g to score about 1.5 more PPG, which isn't that impressive when you consider Haliburton being both more efficient AND their primary playmaker. And, of course, that almost 60% of Siakam's 2pt buckets are assisted in this postseason (and obviously nearly 100% of his 3s).

Something to consider.

29% of Pascals FGM, were directly ASTd by Hali too.

Pascal has been great, but this narrative that hes the number option is ridiculous.

I dont have his true USG% (which includes ASTs), but if you use USG%+ASTr (per NBA.com, some rough math, so ASTs/FGA/FTA/TOVs), Hali is at 57.4% per 100 possessions, Siakam is at 38.3% per 100 possessions. Thats a big difference, and also doesnt illustrate things like facilitating to multiple swing passes, or other non credited ASTs (hockey ASTs/potential ASTs).

[ATLTimekeeper]

You do know the top 2 scoring options on the Pacers before the trade was Buddy Hield and Hali? And they still had a better record than us when we had Siakam, OG, Scottie and Poeltl.

Haliburton is one of the best offensive engines in the league.

They have more than several guys averaging 10 points in the playoffs.

No one plays more than 35 minutes on the roster in the playoffs outside of Haliburton.

They are the definition of being deep lol.

So last year's Boston Celtics weren't deep? The Pacers have 5 guys they trust and 3-4 guys depending on gameflow, like every team. This is absolutely not one of the deepest teams we've seen in a long time

Name me another team that made the finals with no one averaging more than 22 ppg per game. You’d have to go back to like the Spurs lol.

Pacers are a very deep team.

So if Pascal averaged 1.2 more points a game the Pacers would no longer be a deep team? This is just goalpost shifting. Do you think last year's Celtics were deep or not? That's all I need to know from you right now.

[tsherkin]

29% of Pascals FGM, were directly ASTd by Hali too.

Pascal has been great, but this narrative that hes the number option is ridiculous.

Agreed. He does, however, fit in very well with how Indy wants to play, which is great.

Ultimately, we're dealing with a very common thread in basketball discussion, which is scoring fetishism.

[Wannabe MEP]

Ultimately, we're dealing with a very common thread in basketball discussion, which is scoring fetishism.

No, it's superstar fetishism. We need there to be a superstar, so it's Hali...even though he was the league's most overrated player two months ago.

[HumbleRen]

So last year's Boston Celtics weren't deep? The Pacers have 5 guys they trust and 3-4 guys depending on gameflow, like every team. This is absolutely not one of the deepest teams we've seen in a long time

Name me another team that made the finals with no one averaging more than 22 ppg per game. You’d have to go back to like the Spurs lol.

Pacers are a very deep team.

So if Pascal averaged 1.2 more points a game the Pacers would no longer be a deep team? This is just goalpost shifting. Do you think last year's Celtics were deep or not? That's all I need to know from you right now.

You’re avoiding the question. You might be the only person in the world who thinks this Pacers team isn’t deep lol.

Siakam is playing 33 mins per game in these playoffs. That’s how deep this team is lol, the 2nd best player on the team doesn’t even have to be top 2 in minutes played for them to win these games.

[tsherkin]

Ultimately, we're dealing with a very common thread in basketball discussion, which is scoring fetishism.

No, it's superstar fetishism. We need there to be a superstar, so it's Hali...even though he was the league's most overrated player two months ago.

I mean, we're discussing who is and isn't the first option. So people are like "yep, +1.5 ppg, confirmed the primary focus of the offense, even though he's primarily a play-finisher, not an iso guy or a shot-creator."

That's over-emphasis on scoring volume.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Name me another team that made the finals with no one averaging more than 22 ppg per game. You’d have to go back to like the Spurs lol.

Pacers are a very deep team.

So if Pascal averaged 1.2 more points a game the Pacers would no longer be a deep team? This is just goalpost shifting. Do you think last year's Celtics were deep or not? That's all I need to know from you right now.

You’re avoiding the question. You might be the only person in the world who thinks this Pacers team isn’t deep lol.

Siakam is playing 33 mins per game in these playoffs. That’s how deep this team is lol, the 2nd best player on the team doesn’t even have to be top 2 in minutes played for them to win these games.

You said, 'deepest team we've seen in years.' Just answer my question first and then we can get to the Pacers.

[Wannabe MEP]

Ultimately, we're dealing with a very common thread in basketball discussion, which is scoring fetishism.

No, it's superstar fetishism. We need there to be a superstar, so it's Hali...even though he was the league's most overrated player two months ago.

I mean, we're discussing who is and isn't the first option. So people are like "yep, +1.5 ppg, confirmed the primary focus of the offense, even though he's primarily a play-finisher, not an iso guy or a shot-creator."

That's over-emphasis on scoring volume.

I actually don't see much of the argument that you just fake quoted, at least in the last 20+ posts. Just people arguing that he's not the first option.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Ultimately, we're dealing with a very common thread in basketball discussion, which is scoring fetishism.

No, it's superstar fetishism. We need there to be a superstar, so it's Hali...even though he was the league's most overrated player two months ago.

I mean, we're discussing who is and isn't the first option. So people are like "yep, +1.5 ppg, confirmed the primary focus of the offense, even though he's primarily a play-finisher, not an iso guy or a shot-creator."

That's over-emphasis on scoring volume.

I think there's more context here, though. No, he's not the first option. But, he's not not an iso guy or shot creator. He gets the ball and draws D. He's always done that. He's a guy that requires extra eyes because he bullies smalls and blows by bigs. Just because he is not always finishing doesn't mean he's not creating offense.

Haliburton is really the guy that drives this offense, though. It's unquestionable. His on/off splits on O are insane this playoff run and that is backed up by the eye test for me.

Pascal is more of a toolsy star that gives you a bit of everything.

[tsherkin]

No, it's superstar fetishism. We need there to be a superstar, so it's Hali...even though he was the league's most overrated player two months ago.

I mean, we're discussing who is and isn't the first option. So people are like "yep, +1.5 ppg, confirmed the primary focus of the offense, even though he's primarily a play-finisher, not an iso guy or a shot-creator."

That's over-emphasis on scoring volume.

I actually don't see much of the argument that you just fake quoted, at least in the last 20+ posts. Just people arguing that he's not the first option.

I didn't fake quote anything.

The only reason to consider Pascal the first option is based on scoring volume; that's literally the only case that he would be filling that role.

[tsherkin]

I think there's more context here, though. No, he's not the first option. But, he's not not an iso guy or shot creator.

I meant by volume, not that he never does those things. He's a capable post scorer and a reasonable passer, for sure, but the bulk of what he does happens not through isolation or shot creation for others. It wasn't meant to be taken as "he never does these other things ever."

Haliburton is really the guy that drives this offense, though. It's unquestionable. His on/off splits on O are insane this playoff run and that is backed up by the eye test for me.

Ayep.

Pascal is more of a toolsy star that gives you a bit of everything.

He is a quality second option, absolutely. Good value to the Pacers, optimal role, the whole bit.

[Wannabe MEP]

I mean, we're discussing who is and isn't the first option. So people are like "yep, +1.5 ppg, confirmed the primary focus of the offense, even though he's primarily a play-finisher, not an iso guy or a shot-creator."

That's over-emphasis on scoring volume.

I actually don't see much of the argument that you just fake quoted, at least in the last 20+ posts. Just people arguing that he's not the first option.

I didn't fake quote anything.

The only reason to consider Pascal the first option is based on scoring volume; that's literally the only case that he would be filling that role.

And again, I don't really see many posts making the argument that he's the "first option". Just the edited thread title...which I imagine was a successful attempt to get a rise out of the people with a superstar fetish

[tsherkin]

And again, I don't really see many posts making the argument that he's the "first option". Just the edited thread title...which I imagine was a successful attempt to get a rise out of the people with a superstar fetish

I didn't edit the thread title, so I don't know why you even mentioned that.

[HumbleRen]

So if Pascal averaged 1.2 more points a game the Pacers would no longer be a deep team? This is just goalpost shifting. Do you think last year's Celtics were deep or not? That's all I need to know from you right now.

You’re avoiding the question. You might be the only person in the world who thinks this Pacers team isn’t deep lol.

Siakam is playing 33 mins per game in these playoffs. That’s how deep this team is lol, the 2nd best player on the team doesn’t even have to be top 2 in minutes played for them to win these games.

You said, 'deepest team we've seen in years.' Just answer my question first and then we can get to the Pacers.

“Some of the deepest teams in years”.

I know selective reading is a pandemic nowadays but let’s not twist words to fit narratives.

Pacers are objectively one of the deepest teams we’ve seen in a while. There’s a reason why Rick plays a 10 man rotation in the PLAYOFFS. That’s not normal lol.

[Clutch0z24]

I really don't understand the arguments about Siakam in here or people saying "Look what Siakam is doing you all were wrong about him"...

I think its pretty obvious....Siakam is a great player....He was a key part to our championship run....He is a great 2nd option.....He is great in the role he was in on that 2019 title run....(Had a legit first option in Kawhi followed by a really deep all around good team) .....Exact same outcome with the Pacers....First Option (Hailiburton, Followed by a really deep all around good team) ....

No one ever said Siakam was not good in that role ^ The reason Siakam maybe had critics was because the role we were forcing him into post Kawhi....Everyone knew he was not going to succeed as the main guy....Which he never did....Masai failed to get Siakam a legit first option post Kawhi to play with....No fault of Siakams but he is just not good in a role where he had to be the number one option on a not so deep teams....He could not carry a team which i don't think anyone thought he could....

But its basically pointless for the posters trying to Dunk on the posters that never thought of him as that kinda guy.....When in reality he was never that guy....And we never had the teams post Kawhi to support Siakams true role....Hes in a place now where he can play in his natural true role...Which is successfull just like our 2019 team was....Nothing shocking about it...

[tsherkin]

.And we never had the teams post Kawhi to support Siakams true role....Hes in a place now where he can play in his natural true role...Which is successfull just like our 2019 team was....Nothing shocking about it...

Yeah, this, basically.

He's in a situation which supports what he does, and leverages it well. He's got good, useful tools to wield for the Pacers, and a lead guard who drives their offense exceptionally well.

[Spates]

What a glazefest. And coming from a chorus of people with consistently terrible takes on Pascal. The Pacers run hasn't unveiled anything new about Pascal if you've been paying attention.

He has always been an superb finisher that thrives playing behind an elite lead guard who pushes pace. Lowry/Haliburton.

While on Toronto post-bubble he was a victim of poor roster construction, having too long of a leash, and contract year FVV.

Pascal's ideal is being a moderate to high touches, low time of possessions player, who can create their own shot from the middle of the floor. It's what it was during our title run and Indy is following the mold.

What's amusing is that Darko was tinkering with utilizing Pascal in this fashion and there was a heinous uproar. He was putting our best player in the positions for him to thrive and people wanted him fired. Funny how it's so different with Carlisle.

Pascal made the all-star team without Lowry. Not sure what Raptors you are watching, but he was just fine playing with contract year Fred.

If you say so...

[ash_k]

What a glazefest. And coming from a chorus of people with consistently terrible takes on Pascal. The Pacers run hasn't unveiled anything new about Pascal if you've been paying attention.

He has always been an superb finisher that thrives playing behind an elite lead guard who pushes pace. Lowry/Haliburton.

While on Toronto post-bubble he was a victim of poor roster construction, having too long of a leash, and contract year FVV.

Pascal's ideal is being a moderate to high touches, low time of possessions player, who can create their own shot from the middle of the floor. It's what it was during our title run and Indy is following the mold.

What's amusing is that Darko was tinkering with utilizing Pascal in this fashion and there was a heinous uproar. He was putting our best player in the positions for him to thrive and people wanted him fired. Funny how it's so different with Carlisle.

People completely forget how great Darko had Pascal playing. He had a slow first few games but finished the last 32 games averaging 24/5 on 61.5 TS%

yeah, but the problem: You have OG|Barnes|Pascal| Yak and you cannot defend anything ?! Looking totally lost on defense.
That was the fireable "offense" right there!..with a record of 12 and 19 while they were athletically superior than most teams, if not all.
With all the length, those 4 looked amazing on paper. The smart (and lucky) Pacers wanted both OG and Pascal for a reason.

Reminder about Pascal, during the last 2 months of that 48-win season, he played closely to MVP-Level ,with FVV missing games, playing alongside Scottie, Precious and some OG. I have not seen him reach that level since then again.