Shams - Morant on the market

[dagger]

Here's the thing: Last night's win over Indiana without IQ ought to suggest why the Raptors might do a Morant trade. Yes, Ja is everything lame that people are saying. But the Raptors might actually better with Jamal Shead as a starting PG. IQ can score, but he can be a black hole. He is ideally a sixth man combo guard like he was with the Knicks. Love the man, but not his game. Once he gets the ball in his hands, he often just charges the basket. Not enough drive and kick.

Shead is not as good a pure scorer, never will be, but maybe, just maybe he's the better PG. If IQ is out tomorrow, let's see what kind of start the Raptors get against a better team.

IQ's contract sucks, one of Masai's worst moves. Morant's deal is a year shorter. If he comes in and dicks around, suspend him, save some money on his contract. Run another year off it after this one, and he's a nice big expiring, the kind of trade leverage in high demand. As Sam Vecenie contents, Morant would be a stepping stone trade for Toronto, not the final deal to make the Raptors a contender but a piece that could have more value in making the big move after that. The key is not to give up much more talent than IQ and say, Ochai. Throw in the LA second rounder but keep our powder dry for flipping Morant. Other teams will figure he's unhappy to be in Toronto and chalk up some of his BS to that. And if Morant shapes up and plays up to his current capability, plan to trade him this summer. (Make a private deal with him in that regard).

In the final analysis, I would take Darko's analysis into consideration. He's had to deal with Morant at Memphis.

[ATLTimekeeper]

I was more receptive to Trae because of the shorter contract, significantly less injury concern, can actually shoot and not a team chemistry killer. With Ja, I'm not even sure you want him to play well because extending him when he's in his late 20's just seems like a bad idea even if he were to regain his form. The history of this player type aging well is basically non existent.

I think Ja's contract lines up with Ingram's. It'd be a 'show me' trade. If the Raptors are interested I trust Darko's feel for the situation. If the Raptors are just bluffing I also trust Darko's feel for the situation

We're basically in on every star on the market, and offering a package of non Ingram/Scottie players + not much else to get it done. If we make a big play and give up on CMB, that will be very uncharacteristic of what this management team has done in the past, or a sign that our management team is actually cooked to begin with.

CMB is pretty close to untouchable. It would need to be Giannis to even get us to consider it.

Of all the trade talks we have been involved in, Trey Murphy would be the only one I actually want to get done if possible. The price is probably insane though with the way he's been playing.

I also think in terms of moving the needle, Murphy probably moves it the least out of anyone mentioned. He also needs someone to get him his buckets and also is never healthy.

We need someone to draw focus and break down the defense. Morant isn't a good fit, but he might be the right price and allow us to keep our asset base relatively strong for that next big move.

[PushDaRock]

I think Ja's contract lines up with Ingram's. It'd be a 'show me' trade. If the Raptors are interested I trust Darko's feel for the situation. If the Raptors are just bluffing I also trust Darko's feel for the situation

We're basically in on every star on the market, and offering a package of non Ingram/Scottie players + not much else to get it done. If we make a big play and give up on CMB, that will be very uncharacteristic of what this management team has done in the past, or a sign that our management team is actually cooked to begin with.

CMB is pretty close to untouchable. It would need to be Giannis to even get us to consider it.

Of all the trade talks we have been involved in, Trey Murphy would be the only one I actually want to get done if possible. The price is probably insane though with the way he's been playing.

I also think in terms of moving the needle, Murphy probably moves it the least out of anyone mentioned. He also needs someone to get him his buckets and also is never healthy.

We need someone to draw focus and break down the defense. Morant isn't a good fit, but he might be the right price and allow us to keep our asset base relatively strong for that next big move.

I would disagree, he fits what this team wants to do and shores up our biggest weakness with his volume 3 point shooting. The contract is also a major asset going forward and allows you to build a much better team with a guy like that on a value deal.

I don't know that a ball dominant player fits this offense unless it's a real Superstar. We suck at catch and shoot 3's anyways, having someone to drive and kick to guys that can't shoot isn't moving the needle much for us IMO. I would much rather just keep building on our egalitarian offense with better offensive threats and spacing for everyone to work.

[ATLTimekeeper]

I would disagree, he fits what this team wants to do and shores up our biggest weakness with his volume 3 point shooting. The contract is also a major asset going forward and allows you to build a much better team with a guy like that on a value deal.

I don't know that a ball dominant player fits this offense unless it's a real Superstar. We suck at catch and shoot 3's anyways, having someone to drive and kick to guys that can't shoot isn't moving the needle much for us IMO. I would much rather just keep building on our egalitarian offense with better offensive threats and spacing for everyone to work.

It doesn't have to be a ball dominant player, which is why I also am supportive of going after Sabonis. You need a guy that can make plays in the paint, period.

[PushDaRock]

I would disagree, he fits what this team wants to do and shores up our biggest weakness with his volume 3 point shooting. The contract is also a major asset going forward and allows you to build a much better team with a guy like that on a value deal.

I don't know that a ball dominant player fits this offense unless it's a real Superstar. We suck at catch and shoot 3's anyways, having someone to drive and kick to guys that can't shoot isn't moving the needle much for us IMO. I would much rather just keep building on our egalitarian offense with better offensive threats and spacing for everyone to work.

It doesn't have to be a ball dominant player, which is why I also am supportive of going after Sabonis. You need a guy that can make plays in the paint, period.

There's the money and age consideration as well. Murphy is 4 years younger and making 17m less in AAV.

Sabonis' paint touches would help but so would Murphy's volume 3 point shooting along with his own elite finishing at the rim. Murphy is also plug and play into any system even if we have a roster overhaul.

[Dexjackson]

I would disagree, he fits what this team wants to do and shores up our biggest weakness with his volume 3 point shooting. The contract is also a major asset going forward and allows you to build a much better team with a guy like that on a value deal.

I don't know that a ball dominant player fits this offense unless it's a real Superstar. We suck at catch and shoot 3's anyways, having someone to drive and kick to guys that can't shoot isn't moving the needle much for us IMO. I would much rather just keep building on our egalitarian offense with better offensive threats and spacing for everyone to work.

It doesn't have to be a ball dominant player, which is why I also am supportive of going after Sabonis. You need a guy that can make plays in the paint, period.

There's the money and age consideration as well. Murphy is 4 years younger and making 17m less in AAV.

Sabonis' paint touches would help but so would Murphy's volume 3 point shooting along with his own elite finishing at the rim. Murphy is also plug and play into any system even if we have a roster overhaul.

I don't know how Murphy moves the needle the least? Morant and Sabonis are all likely going to take the ball out of Scottie/BI's hands more. They are non spacers. They don't play defense.
O agree that Murphy is a plug and play player. He's a great shooter/ efficient player (Averaging almost 50/40/90). Good defender who can guard 1-5.

[PushDaRock]

It doesn't have to be a ball dominant player, which is why I also am supportive of going after Sabonis. You need a guy that can make plays in the paint, period.

There's the money and age consideration as well. Murphy is 4 years younger and making 17m less in AAV.

Sabonis' paint touches would help but so would Murphy's volume 3 point shooting along with his own elite finishing at the rim. Murphy is also plug and play into any system even if we have a roster overhaul.

I don't know how Murphy moves the needle the least? Morant and Sabonis are all likely going to take the ball out of Scottie/BI's hands more. They are non spacers. They don't play defense.
O agree that Murphy is a plug and play player. He's a great shooter/ efficient player (Averaging almost 50/40/90). Good defender who can guard 1-5.

Excellent rim finisher as well, he's 82% at the rim this season and a career 75%. If he starts learning to draw fouls as well, he could be easily be an efficient 25 ppg scorer. There's still some untapped potential left with him as he's still an ascending player and I would love to see him elsewhere anyways, his talents are wasted on the Pelicans.

[sh00n]

Here's the thing: Last night's win over Indiana without IQ ought to suggest why the Raptors might do a Morant trade. Yes, Ja is everything lame that people are saying. But the Raptors might actually better with Jamal Shead as a starting PG. IQ can score, but he can be a black hole. He is ideally a sixth man combo guard like he was with the Knicks. Love the man, but not his game. Once he gets the ball in his hands, he often just charges the basket. Not enough drive and kick.

Shead is not as good a pure scorer, never will be, but maybe, just maybe he's the better PG. If IQ is out tomorrow, let's see what kind of start the Raptors get against a better team.

IQ's contract sucks, one of Masai's worst moves. Morant's deal is a year shorter. If he comes in and dicks around, suspend him, save some money on his contract. Run another year off it after this one, and he's a nice big expiring, the kind of trade leverage in high demand. As Sam Vecenie contents, Morant would be a stepping stone trade for Toronto, not the final deal to make the Raptors a contender but a piece that could have more value in making the big move after that. The key is not to give up much more talent than IQ and say, Ochai. Throw in the LA second rounder but keep our powder dry for flipping Morant. Other teams will figure he's unhappy to be in Toronto and chalk up some of his BS to that. And if Morant shapes up and plays up to his current capability, plan to trade him this summer. (Make a private deal with him in that regard).

In the final analysis, I would take Darko's analysis into consideration. He's had to deal with Morant at Memphis.

Exactly why I would do it. If you don't have to include a first and LaMelo isn't available, you almost have to do it. Majority of guys who don't seem like they'd enjoy Toronto have a change of heart after playing here for a bit and getting used to it. Absolute worst case scenario, the contract is shorter and becomes more valuable quicker as an expiring, best case scenario he returns to form being in a new system, and being in another country steers him away from his off the court BS.

[ATLTimekeeper]

It doesn't have to be a ball dominant player, which is why I also am supportive of going after Sabonis. You need a guy that can make plays in the paint, period.

There's the money and age consideration as well. Murphy is 4 years younger and making 17m less in AAV.

Sabonis' paint touches would help but so would Murphy's volume 3 point shooting along with his own elite finishing at the rim. Murphy is also plug and play into any system even if we have a roster overhaul.

I don't know how Murphy moves the needle the least? Morant and Sabonis are all likely going to take the ball out of Scottie/BI's hands more. They are non spacers. They don't play defense.
O agree that Murphy is a plug and play player. He's a great shooter/ efficient player (Averaging almost 50/40/90). Good defender who can guard 1-5.

We want players to take the ball out of BI and Scottie's hands. We want creation talent. We want Scottie and BI finishing more. Especially if we're giving up one of IQ or RJ, that's a creator for a finisher. Murphy absolutely does not guard 1-5. No way. He's if anything a slightly negative defender in the RJ sense.

Guys like Murphy are nice when you have Sabonis, not when you need one.

[Dexjackson]

There's the money and age consideration as well. Murphy is 4 years younger and making 17m less in AAV.

Sabonis' paint touches would help but so would Murphy's volume 3 point shooting along with his own elite finishing at the rim. Murphy is also plug and play into any system even if we have a roster overhaul.

I don't know how Murphy moves the needle the least? Morant and Sabonis are all likely going to take the ball out of Scottie/BI's hands more. They are non spacers. They don't play defense.
O agree that Murphy is a plug and play player. He's a great shooter/ efficient player (Averaging almost 50/40/90). Good defender who can guard 1-5.

We want players to take the ball out of BI and Scottie's hands. We want creation talent. We want Scottie and BI finishing more. Especially if we're giving up one of IQ or RJ, that's a creator for a finisher. Murphy absolutely does not guard 1-5. No way. He's if anything a slightly negative defender in the RJ sense.

Guys like Murphy are nice when you have Sabonis, not when you need one.

So Scottie is a finisher and IQ is a creator...are we watching the same games?

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Trey does guard 1-5.

[billy_hoyle]

I don't know how Murphy moves the needle the least? Morant and Sabonis are all likely going to take the ball out of Scottie/BI's hands more. They are non spacers. They don't play defense.
O agree that Murphy is a plug and play player. He's a great shooter/ efficient player (Averaging almost 50/40/90). Good defender who can guard 1-5.

We want players to take the ball out of BI and Scottie's hands. We want creation talent. We want Scottie and BI finishing more. Especially if we're giving up one of IQ or RJ, that's a creator for a finisher. Murphy absolutely does not guard 1-5. No way. He's if anything a slightly negative defender in the RJ sense.

Guys like Murphy are nice when you have Sabonis, not when you need one.

So Scottie is a finisher and IQ is a creator...are we watching the same games?

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Trey does guard 1-5.

Haven't the Pels been a bottom 5 defensive team since Trey Murphy has been a starter?

Versatility doesn't mean he can competently defend those positions.

[PushDaRock]

We want players to take the ball out of BI and Scottie's hands. We want creation talent. We want Scottie and BI finishing more. Especially if we're giving up one of IQ or RJ, that's a creator for a finisher. Murphy absolutely does not guard 1-5. No way. He's if anything a slightly negative defender in the RJ sense.

Guys like Murphy are nice when you have Sabonis, not when you need one.

So Scottie is a finisher and IQ is a creator...are we watching the same games?

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Read on Twitter

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Trey does guard 1-5.

Haven't the Pels been a bottom 5 defensive team since Trey Murphy has been a starter?

Versatility doesn't mean he can competently defend those positions.

He was really good defensively his first 3 years in the league when he was on mediocre to decent teams. Year 2 and 3, he played essentially starter mins at over 30 a game on the 6th and 7th ranked D. Year 4 and 5, he's fallen off a cliff defensively by the metrics, but that's also on really bad defensive teams. Even Herb Jones has had a significant drop as well. We saw the same thing with Scottie in year 3 where his defensive impact wasn't great either on a really poor defensive team. Going off the eye test, he has all the physical tools to guard at a high level. I think in an environment like ours, there's no reason for him not to be really good if not even great defensively.

[UnbelievablyRAW]

Here's the thing: Last night's win over Indiana without IQ ought to suggest why the Raptors might do a Morant trade. Yes, Ja is everything lame that people are saying. But the Raptors might actually better with Jamal Shead as a starting PG. IQ can score, but he can be a black hole. He is ideally a sixth man combo guard like he was with the Knicks. Love the man, but not his game. Once he gets the ball in his hands, he often just charges the basket. Not enough drive and kick.

Shead is not as good a pure scorer, never will be, but maybe, just maybe he's the better PG. If IQ is out tomorrow, let's see what kind of start the Raptors get against a better team.

IQ's contract sucks, one of Masai's worst moves. Morant's deal is a year shorter. If he comes in and dicks around, suspend him, save some money on his contract. Run another year off it after this one, and he's a nice big expiring, the kind of trade leverage in high demand. As Sam Vecenie contents, Morant would be a stepping stone trade for Toronto, not the final deal to make the Raptors a contender but a piece that could have more value in making the big move after that. The key is not to give up much more talent than IQ and say, Ochai. Throw in the LA second rounder but keep our powder dry for flipping Morant. Other teams will figure he's unhappy to be in Toronto and chalk up some of his BS to that. And if Morant shapes up and plays up to his current capability, plan to trade him this summer. (Make a private deal with him in that regard).

In the final analysis, I would take Darko's analysis into consideration. He's had to deal with Morant at Memphis.

I see the point but the locker room cancer potential is too high and we aren't valid enough of an organization for him to come here and not think he's the biggest name in the building and try the baby antics he's doing in Memphis. Sometimes that's enough to nix a trade even if the money situation makes sense logistically.

I'd much rather hold out for Lamelo who has already shown he's willing to sacrifice to win coming off the bench in Charlotte.

[mtcan]

I don't know how Murphy moves the needle the least? Morant and Sabonis are all likely going to take the ball out of Scottie/BI's hands more. They are non spacers. They don't play defense.
O agree that Murphy is a plug and play player. He's a great shooter/ efficient player (Averaging almost 50/40/90). Good defender who can guard 1-5.

We want players to take the ball out of BI and Scottie's hands. We want creation talent. We want Scottie and BI finishing more. Especially if we're giving up one of IQ or RJ, that's a creator for a finisher. Murphy absolutely does not guard 1-5. No way. He's if anything a slightly negative defender in the RJ sense.

Guys like Murphy are nice when you have Sabonis, not when you need one.

So Scottie is a finisher and IQ is a creator...are we watching the same games?

[url]

Read on Twitter

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Trey does guard 1-5.

How many first round picks are you willing to give up to get Trey Murphy? This is the Desmond Bane-type trade that someone will do.

[mihaic]

Here's the thing: Last night's win over Indiana without IQ ought to suggest why the Raptors might do a Morant trade. Yes, Ja is everything lame that people are saying. But the Raptors might actually better with Jamal Shead as a starting PG. IQ can score, but he can be a black hole. He is ideally a sixth man combo guard like he was with the Knicks. Love the man, but not his game. Once he gets the ball in his hands, he often just charges the basket. Not enough drive and kick.

Shead is not as good a pure scorer, never will be, but maybe, just maybe he's the better PG. If IQ is out tomorrow, let's see what kind of start the Raptors get against a better team.

IQ's contract sucks, one of Masai's worst moves. Morant's deal is a year shorter. If he comes in and dicks around, suspend him, save some money on his contract. Run another year off it after this one, and he's a nice big expiring, the kind of trade leverage in high demand. As Sam Vecenie contents, Morant would be a stepping stone trade for Toronto, not the final deal to make the Raptors a contender but a piece that could have more value in making the big move after that. The key is not to give up much more talent than IQ and say, Ochai. Throw in the LA second rounder but keep our powder dry for flipping Morant. Other teams will figure he's unhappy to be in Toronto and chalk up some of his BS to that. And if Morant shapes up and plays up to his current capability, plan to trade him this summer. (Make a private deal with him in that regard).

In the final analysis, I would take Darko's analysis into consideration. He's had to deal with Morant at Memphis.

I see the point but the locker room cancer potential is too high and we aren't valid enough of an organization for him to come here and not think he's the biggest name in the building and try the baby antics he's doing in Memphis. Sometimes that's enough to nix a trade even if the money situation makes sense logistically.

I'd much rather hold out for Lamelo who has already shown he's willing to sacrifice to win coming off the bench in Charlotte.

Which is why imo Horenets won't trade LaMelo for cheap. They probably want picks.

Also if Morant truly is an idiot, they can trade him next season as expiring, right? As it would ba a large expiring. Kind of like what we did with Bruce Brown.

[TGM]

Zero chance the Pels trade Trey Murphy. Even if they do it won’t be at the price Raptor fans would even come close to be willing to pay.

There seems to be a large group against trading for Ja because of his poor shooting. Ja’s shooting is way down this season, just like the season we traded VC away, the drop off was insane, but once he went to the Nets things flipped around. VC all of a sudden became healthier and more motivated you will get that with Ja. He was immature in his early years but players come around.

One thing people need to move away from is just looking at pure stats and thinking that’s how the math works. By the stats BI wasn’t going to work. By Math signing Demarre Carrol, Jason Kapono, Hedo was supposed to work but it all didn’t.

Stats are historical and a players stats are based on their old environment. Their teammates can improve evolve the coach’s game plan etc… one example look at RJ’s efficiency this year. One thing RJ has reduced is mid-range and he is playing more to his strengths of catch and shoot 3 or slash into the key. The arrival of BI has made that part of his game elevate as BI attracts the defense more so than anyone did last season.

The fact is this applies for every single player so when you look at stats it is more directional, but only tells a piece of the outcome. This is why some people could see the benefit and the ones looking purely at numbers couldn’t. BI being a superior offensive talent makes offence easier for others. It is a contagion effect.

This is where Ja will make a huge difference. His fist step and attack first mentality is very different from IQ. The way opposing teams need to defend, his ability to blow by opposing guards. His ability to finish will draw defenders further in, add in his ability to make tough high quality passes will change the stats in a positive way for the rest of the team. So people can’t just swap Ja stats in and say it doesn’t work. People who have played competitive organized basketball versus people who watch basketball will appreciate this.

Ja will be a net positive for the Raptors. Ja might not be a better 3pt shooter than IQ, but the other Raptors like Dick will become better 3 pt shooters becuase of Ja.

Why Kapono worked in Miami and not in Toronto was exactly for that reason. He had Wade and Shaq. Hedo had Dwight, Nelson, Lewis.

Scottie is not a tier 1 offensive player. If we want to maximize his potential we need to give him the offensive weapons to balance his potential.

[mihaic]

We want players to take the ball out of BI and Scottie's hands. We want creation talent. We want Scottie and BI finishing more. Especially if we're giving up one of IQ or RJ, that's a creator for a finisher. Murphy absolutely does not guard 1-5. No way. He's if anything a slightly negative defender in the RJ sense.

Guys like Murphy are nice when you have Sabonis, not when you need one.

So Scottie is a finisher and IQ is a creator...are we watching the same games?

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Trey does guard 1-5.

How many first round picks are you willing to give up to get Trey Murphy? This is the Desmond Bane-type trade that someone will do.

I don't think it would put us over the top. Rather, keep the picks in case a star player can be traded our way.

[DreamTeam09]

I can't get behind trading any 2 of IQ/RJ/Jakob for any of the returns on the market. I'd trade for Melo tho if I could keep RJ

[mihaic]

I can't get behind trading any 2 of IQ/RJ/Jakob for any of the returns on the market. I'd trade for Melo tho if I could keep RJ

I'd trade iq for Ja. Then trade Ja expiry and picks in the summer for a better player. Like dagger suggested. But MEMPHIS probably say no, they want picks. Salaries would match if Ochai is added to IQ.

[HumbleRen]

We need our PG of the future more than we need Trey Murphy.