The Tank Debate Thread

[Sn0wman]

Warm up the tank, rack up the ping pong balls.

[Marvin Martian]

Melo has proven that he is nothing but a mediocre scorer who cannot play defense or pass the ball. Bosh has proven that he is a wuss. Sure a JV Bosh duo sounds nice on paper, but it is still a treadmill squad which is what pro tankers are trying to avoid in the first place.

The draft has proven one thing: If you are a tanking team and you missed out on a franchise player, then you have lost the draft end of story. I don't want to hear how our less hyped 2014 prospect is on the same talent level as Andrew Wiggins. That would be a failure that not even BC could weasel his way out of.

Players like Melo and Bosh are a good start. Although not true franchise players they have elite talent. They can be flipped for good assets or attract good players. What exactly is your stance? Judging by your trades in the trade thread, matched with your comments that I recall, I would guess aiming high for the top pick. I'm not against this but the odds aren't great. Aiming for a truly generational player could take years. It involve a lot of luck. I'm fine aiming for a top six next year. If MU gets decent future assets for Raptor players I say do it. I'm not aiming for the trophy. My Canucks have been way better than the Raptors have ever been close to. In the NHL a league with more parity, and yet still no cup. Close but no cigar. The Raptors may never go all the way. And are incredibly unlikely anytime soon. I want a team that can be a dark horse at this junction in time. A team like the Jazz have been would suit me just fine. Of course as a fan you want your team to be a champion but reality is a b*tch too.

My stance is acquiring talent and building a great team. I would prefer doing it by trade instead of going through the hardship of losing with no foundation and allowing ping pong balls to determine the fate of the franchise. I do not mind tanking (it's risky) but I know that franchise players are rare and if I had to choose between tanking or trading for a young star like Kevin Love, Paul George or James Harden; I'm choosing the latter.

[TheRealBlizzy]

Melo has proven that he is nothing but a mediocre scorer who cannot play defense or pass the ball. Bosh has proven that he is a wuss. Sure a JV Bosh duo sounds nice on paper, but it is still a treadmill squad which is what pro tankers are trying to avoid in the first place.

The draft has proven one thing: If you are a tanking team and you missed out on a franchise player, then you have lost the draft end of story. I don't want to hear how our less hyped 2014 prospect is on the same talent level as Andrew Wiggins. That would be a failure that not even BC could weasel his way out of.

Players like Melo and Bosh are a good start. Although not true franchise players they have elite talent. They can be flipped for good assets or attract good players. What exactly is your stance? Judging by your trades in the trade thread, matched with your comments that I recall, I would guess aiming high for the top pick. I'm not against this but the odds aren't great. Aiming for a truly generational player could take years. It involve a lot of luck. I'm fine aiming for a top six next year. If MU gets decent future assets for Raptor players I say do it. I'm not aiming for the trophy. My Canucks have been way better than the Raptors have ever been close to. In the NHL a league with more parity, and yet still no cup. Close but no cigar. The Raptors may never go all the way. And are incredibly unlikely anytime soon. I want a team that can be a dark horse at this junction in time. A team like the Jazz have been would suit me just fine. Of course as a fan you want your team to be a champion but reality is a b*tch too.

My stance is acquiring talent and building a great team. I would prefer doing it by trade instead of going through the hardship of losing with no foundation and allowing ping pong balls to determine the fate of the franchise. I do not mind tanking (it's risky) but I know that franchise players are rare and if I had to choose between tanking or trading for a young star like Kevin Love, Paul George or James Harden; I'm choosing the latter.

We would chose that route too, except we don't have the assets to land Love or Harden at the current time, need moar picks.

[gerrit4]

Just curious about the consensus here on something. I'm "Switzerland" on the whole tank vs. non-tank - if it were up to me I'd be leaning slightly towards the tank, as the top 7 are looking like great pieces.

That being said, how many wins would it take for the pro-tankers to be satisfied with a non-tanking season?

For me, it's 50 wins, regardless of whether we get past the first round of the playoffs or not. That would be the best regular season in franchise history, enough for probably a 4-6 seed, and proof that the young core can win. A 50 win team (in spite of the fact the league will suck next year), means that Rudy, Demar, Jonas and Lowry all made positive strides and can be a legit part of a winning team. IMO, those guys being on a 50 win team increases their trade value dramatically.

Like I said, while it's looking more and more like a lost season and lost assets is worth a top 5 pick in next years draft, if this core got 50 wins, I'd be more than satisfied with the season. Not to mention, if the Raptors could average 50 wins over the next five years (a stretch, I know), suddenly we'll become a hotter free agency destination, especially for guys like Bennett, Thompson, Wiggens.

[BackseatBoss]

I think this gif perfectly illustrates how tanking goes for us every year:

[RapTelligence]

Players like Melo and Bosh are a good start. Although not true franchise players they have elite talent. They can be flipped for good assets or attract good players. What exactly is your stance? Judging by your trades in the trade thread, matched with your comments that I recall, I would guess aiming high for the top pick. I'm not against this but the odds aren't great. Aiming for a truly generational player could take years. It involve a lot of luck. I'm fine aiming for a top six next year. If MU gets decent future assets for Raptor players I say do it. I'm not aiming for the trophy. My Canucks have been way better than the Raptors have ever been close to. In the NHL a league with more parity, and yet still no cup. Close but no cigar. The Raptors may never go all the way. And are incredibly unlikely anytime soon. I want a team that can be a dark horse at this junction in time. A team like the Jazz have been would suit me just fine. Of course as a fan you want your team to be a champion but reality is a b*tch too.

My stance is acquiring talent and building a great team. I would prefer doing it by trade instead of going through the hardship of losing with no foundation and allowing ping pong balls to determine the fate of the franchise. I do not mind tanking (it's risky) but I know that franchise players are rare and if I had to choose between tanking or trading for a young star like Kevin Love, Paul George or James Harden; I'm choosing the latter.

We would chose that route too, except we don't have the assets to land Love or Harden at the current time, need moar picks.

If we got 3 picks for Bargs, how many picks would you think we should get for Gay and Demar. And how many will the current market be ready to part?

[Double Helix]

If you guys want to engage trollers from team tank and listen to what you already know (tanking leads to higher picks where most of the top young talent usually is and the 2014 draft is said to be a good one) then that's up to you but if any of you are a fan of Rudy, Kyle, Amir, Jonas, etc and reading through this and getting tired of reading the same old arguments just know that you have ignore options and lists you can put together. Check out your settings and look for the friends and foes list.

You can specifically choose to ignore many posters at once. It will make browsing much easier and faster for you so that you can read the posters you want and easily ignore the ones that you don't.

[StMikes31]

the only fact here is the fact that you still dont know whatchu talkin 'bout.

Take a look at the season predictions for all the teams you listed, the exact year they acquired their superstars:

http://voices.yahoo.com/nba-2006-2007-p ... 05535.html

http://voices.yahoo.com/nba-2006-2007-p ... tml?cat=14

http://www.hoopsvibe.com/features/39021 ... redictions

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basket ... i_preview/

They were all expected to be 7-11 fringe playoff "treadmill teams" with the exception of the Spurs who were expected to be contenders until Robinson got injured. Thats called a fact.

No I would not let Rudy and Lowry walk for nothing, but I'm not in a position to make that determination and neither are you, only Masai is. Both of those guys could be resigned, or traded this year. But even if you decide to trade them, if the only deal is CV + Stuckey, the prudent action will be to start the year with them and see what the market dictates towards the trade deadline.

And were not going to trade them for young up and coming studs? Just like Demar had no value, yet he was almost traded for Bledsoe? Or Bargnani had no value, yet he was traded for 3 picks? Or Calderon had no value, yet he was traded for Rudy Gay and then resigned for 4 years 30 million? Theres nothing factual about your player evaluations.

Maybe this time you will learn something from my schooling, so we dont have to have this convo another two days from now.

No I would not let Rudy and Lowry walk for nothing, but I'm not in a position to make that determination and neither are you, only Masai is. Both of those guys could be resigned, or traded this year. But even if you decide to trade them, if the only deal is CV + Stuckey, the prudent action will be to start the year with them and see what the market dictates towards the trade deadline.

That's been everyone's stance, including mine. No one liked the garbage DET offered us.

And were not going to trade them for young up and coming studs? Just like Demar had no value, yet he was almost traded for Bledsoe? Or Bargnani had no value, yet he was traded for 3 picks? Or Calderon had no value, yet he was traded for Rudy Gay and then resigned for 4 years 30 million? Theres nothing factual about your player evaluations.

blahhhhh arrrghhh/rant

You said all those teams tanked. I showed you those teams started the year like us, thats a fact. So were better off keeping our players then trading them if we dont get good value in return, which is the whole point of this thread.

Also, go to any tank thread, its full of posts of people wanting to give away our players for **** value.

And Demars not my boy lol I have no problem with trading him, just think he has more value then RealGM gives him credit for. As an example, RealGM were way off on Calderon and Bargnanis value.

What you failed to realize is that those teams weren't capped out and never had a GM who built something that wasn't very good or sustainable for winning. That is the difference and why our situation is unique and why it is so important that we get the best possible value for these guys whenever that happens from now until the deadline. We unfortunetely had a horrible GM for the last 7 years and re-built something that isn't championship worthy in the last 3 but more as a 6-8 seed. Also, we aren't going to let Lowry and Gay walk for nothing, that wouldn't be the smartest thing to do so that is why a move will happen unless we somehow win 45-50 games this season which is highly unlikely.

Also, go to any tank thread, its full of posts of people wanting to give away our players for **** value.

Again, you're wrong. Any of the pro tankers who know what they are talking about want to get the best possible package for our guys. No one is saying to dump them for expirings, you may get the odd poster who is oblivious to the situation but for the most part we want the best possible assets coming back (picks, young players, expirings).

[Legal Non-Conforming]

For anyone who wants a thoughtful anti-tanking analysis by an analytics guy, read Patrick Minion's stuff (NBA Geek) at http://www.thenbageek.com/

Tanking, again, appears to be the meme du jour among basketball journalists. I've written about this topic before. In fact, I have written lots. I cover a variety of points, but the gist is that tanking is a strategy for fools. Tanking, in and of itself, simply doesn't pay. And when most pundits refer to tanking as a strategy, they infallibly get most of their facts wrong, and compound it by using bad logic.

You know what else Houston has done in the last 4 years while "rebuilding" from Yao and T-Mac? They played to win their damn basketball games. They didn't have superstars, but Daryl Morey did what he could to field a competitive squad by grabbing underappreciated players like Shane Battier, Goran Dragic, Samuel Dalembert, Omer Asik, Chuck Hayes, etc. And yes, he let many of those same players go, but that's because he felt confident that you can always get those under-valued players, so you shouldn't pass up a good trade.

If playing .500 ball is so terrible, why were the Rockets in a position to leap into contention?

For that matter, let's look at other franchises: If the 6th-8th seed in the playoffs is such purgatory, why is Golden State looking like a franchise in a pretty good spot right now? If middle of the pack lottery tickets are so bad, how did Utah manage to parley two of them into Trey Burke?

The reason you don't want to be the Milwaukee Bucks has nothing to do with their being a middle-of-the-pack playoff team. The reason you don't want to be the Milwaukee Bucks is because the Milwaukee Bucks are not very good at evaluating basketball talent. Sure, they aren't awful either (by NBA management standards). But when you are just kind of OK at guaging basketball talent, you know what you usually end up with? An OK basketball team.

[orangutooth]

So let's not focus ONLY on The Guy we might draft in 14, though of course he might have star potential too. We need to accumulate all the picks and young prospects and cap space we can. That is the only way to even have a shot at acquiring top tier talent. Again, at this point in time, we have no top tier talent. Period. How are we going to get some? I suggest that the best way is to accumulate the best trade assets possible and make the best trades possible at the right time. If that means trading Rudy Gay (not a top tier talent) and Lowry (not a top tier talent) and Demar (not a top tier talent), in well-focused, clear-headed moves designed to maximize our chances of getting top tier talent, then yes, we should pull the trigger on those trades, if and when they appear.

i think people don't really get the nba market for players. other than val, who is the only true asset on this team, the only player with any value at all is lowry. DD and Gay have no value because of their contracts. that's why nobody is asking about demar and the only offer for gay is expiring contracts. also, guys like gay and demar are available in free agency every year. for example you got guys like mayo, gay, iguodala, landry etc. etc. bouncing around from team to team every summer. we're the most asset poor team in the league because our main players are not on rookie contracts and not worth the value of their current contracts.

get rid of them, tank, draft good players with high picks. idiot anti-tankers are there talking about tanking is a "pie in the sky" and risking everything. we're risking nothing by moving the players we have. they are worth nothing and similar players can be easily re-acquired if you have a strong core. we need to build that strong core and tank for as many years as necessary to acquire it.

[Hot Water]

LOL @ calling Melo a mediocre scorer.

His TS% isn't on the level of James Harden, LeBron James, Chris Paul, or Kevin Durant who are real franchise players.

I can't help but think that the analytics movement has gone too far when I read stuff like this.

I'm not even a Melo fan, but calling him a mediocre scorer is insane.

[CoachJReturns]

So let's not focus ONLY on The Guy we might draft in 14, though of course he might have star potential too. We need to accumulate all the picks and young prospects and cap space we can. That is the only way to even have a shot at acquiring top tier talent. Again, at this point in time, we have no top tier talent. Period. How are we going to get some? I suggest that the best way is to accumulate the best trade assets possible and make the best trades possible at the right time. If that means trading Rudy Gay (not a top tier talent) and Lowry (not a top tier talent) and Demar (not a top tier talent), in well-focused, clear-headed moves designed to maximize our chances of getting top tier talent, then yes, we should pull the trigger on those trades, if and when they appear.

i think people don't really get the nba market for players. other than val, who is the only true asset on this team, the only player with any value at all is lowry. DD and Gay have no value because of their contracts. that's why nobody is asking about demar and the only offer for gay is expiring contracts. also, guys like gay and demar are available in free agency every year. for example you got guys like mayo, gay, iguodala, landry etc. etc. bouncing around from team to team every summer. we're the most asset poor team in the league because our main players are not on rookie contracts and not worth the value of their current contracts.

get rid of them, tank, draft good players with high picks. idiot anti-tankers are there talking about tanking is a "pie in the sky" and risking everything. we're risking nothing by moving the players we have. they are worth nothing and similar players can be easily re-acquired if you have a strong core. we need to build that strong core and tank for as many years as necessary to acquire it.

You don't think Rudy's expiring may have value next year? It has to be worth at least a late first rounder. It's a ton of cap space for a cash strapped team.

[nodeal]

Just curious about the consensus here on something. I'm "Switzerland" on the whole tank vs. non-tank - if it were up to me I'd be leaning slightly towards the tank, as the top 7 are looking like great pieces.

That being said, how many wins would it take for the pro-tankers to be satisfied with a non-tanking season?

For me, it's 50 wins, regardless of whether we get past the first round of the playoffs or not. That would be the best regular season in franchise history, enough for probably a 4-6 seed, and proof that the young core can win. A 50 win team (in spite of the fact the league will suck next year), means that Rudy, Demar, Jonas and Lowry all made positive strides and can be a legit part of a winning team. IMO, those guys being on a 50 win team increases their trade value dramatically.

Like I said, while it's looking more and more like a lost season and lost assets is worth a top 5 pick in next years draft, if this core got 50 wins, I'd be more than satisfied with the season. Not to mention, if the Raptors could average 50 wins over the next five years (a stretch, I know), suddenly we'll become a hotter free agency destination, especially for guys like Bennett, Thompson, Wiggens.

I agree with your 50 number. If vegas sets our line at 49.5 wins I would abandon pro rebuild and join pro retool. I havnt checked but im guessing we are at around 40.5 with a less than .05% chance at winning the title. To retool a 40-41 win team into a 3rd round contender isnt easy. On top of great drafting, great trading, and great cap management, you would need a big name FA to sign with you (like a dwight).

[CoachJReturns]

Just curious about the consensus here on something. I'm "Switzerland" on the whole tank vs. non-tank - if it were up to me I'd be leaning slightly towards the tank, as the top 7 are looking like great pieces.

That being said, how many wins would it take for the pro-tankers to be satisfied with a non-tanking season?

For me, it's 50 wins, regardless of whether we get past the first round of the playoffs or not. That would be the best regular season in franchise history, enough for probably a 4-6 seed, and proof that the young core can win. A 50 win team (in spite of the fact the league will suck next year), means that Rudy, Demar, Jonas and Lowry all made positive strides and can be a legit part of a winning team. IMO, those guys being on a 50 win team increases their trade value dramatically.

Like I said, while it's looking more and more like a lost season and lost assets is worth a top 5 pick in next years draft, if this core got 50 wins, I'd be more than satisfied with the season. Not to mention, if the Raptors could average 50 wins over the next five years (a stretch, I know), suddenly we'll become a hotter free agency destination, especially for guys like Bennett, Thompson, Wiggens.

I agree with your 50 number. If vegas sets our line at 49.5 wins I would abandon pro rebuild and join pro retool. I havnt checked but im guessing we are at around 40.5 with a less than .05% chance at winning the title. To retool a 40-41 win team into a 3rd round contender isnt easy. On top of great drafting, great trading, and great cap management, you would need a big name FA to sign with you (like a dwight).

It's reasonable to say that if we won the most games in team history, most of us tankers would be happy. Rudy would have to be the leader of that winning record as he is our best player, unless Jonas makes enormous strides this year. If Rudy lead a team to a 50 win season, suddenly he might be a little easier to trade. So would a lot of the other guys who would have had to have a career year. I don't think there's a hope in hell of this team winning 50, but if it magically did happen it would change everything no doub.

[Son Goku 25]

I wasn't sure where to post this or if it deserved its own thread.
This is a question for everyone, seeing as most people including scouts believe that this coming draft is the
real deal and has future superstars in the making. What if players like Wiggins/Parker don't live up to the hype and
become as good as say, Rudy Gay? I understand there are mixed feelings toward Rudy because of his contract, but its not like he's a terrible player.
How long have we been waiting for an athletic wing who is taller and good enough to score on the best defenders and also defend them decently? and how long have we been waiting for a guy who can take over in the end and make clutch plays?
The reason I pose this is because everyone believes they both are a sure thing. I understand the type of potential wiggins has on both ends of the court plus his wing span, but can someone tell me the difference between a player like Wiggins and Gay in primes(serious question) how much better can we get with Wiggins and a Pf like Amir.

I actually like the 2 year plan to see how it all works out, I think if we had a legit PF like david west/ horford and back up Pg (of course if all other players we currently have develop like they should) we would be contenders. I'm all in for whatever direction Masai chooses, but just wanted to throw this question out as it was on my mind.

[Son Goku 25]

I wasn't sure where to post this or if it deserved its own thread. I posted this on another thread as well...

This is a question for everyone, seeing as most people including scouts believe that this coming draft is the
real deal and has future superstars in the making. What if players like Wiggins/Parker don't live up to the hype and
become as good as say, Rudy Gay? I understand there are mixed feelings toward Rudy because of his contract, but its not like he's a terrible player.
How long have we been waiting for an athletic wing who is taller and good enough to score on the best defenders and also defend them decently? and how long have we been waiting for a guy who can take over in the end and make clutch plays?
The reason I pose this is because everyone believes they both are a sure thing. I understand the type of potential wiggins has on both ends of the court plus his wing span, but can someone tell me the difference between a player like Wiggins and Gay in primes(serious question) how much better can we get with Wiggins and a Pf like Amir.
I actually like the 2 year plan to see how it all works out, I think if we had a legit PF like david west/ horford and back up Pg (of course if all other players we currently have develop like they should) we would be contenders. I'm all in for whatever direction Masai chooses, but just wanted to throw this question out as it was on my mind.

[Reignman]

http://www2.tsn.ca/window/podcastcentre/#id=13\

Masai yesterday - nothing new but adds to the fact he is waiting for the right re-build package. Page 9

LOL, stop lyin', I just wasted 15 mins listening to that thing and NOWHERE does he say that.

In fact, he mentioned the whole "karma" angle multiple times in respect to tanking.

You guys make me laugh.

[StMikes31]

http://www2.tsn.ca/window/podcastcentre/#id=13\

Masai yesterday - nothing new but adds to the fact he is waiting for the right re-build package. Page 9

LOL, stop lyin', I just wasted 15 mins listening to that thing and NOWHERE does he say that.

In fact, he mentioned the whole "karma" angle multiple times in respect to tanking.

You guys make me laugh.

He did mention the karma angle in reference to just dumping these guys for nothing (like DET deal) but said he understands the big picture and will keep being aggressive to improve this team long-term, as he mentioned getting assets in picks.

[user3000]

I wasn't sure where to post this or if it deserved its own thread. I posted this on another thread as well...

This is a question for everyone, seeing as most people including scouts believe that this coming draft is the
real deal and has future superstars in the making. What if players like Wiggins/Parker don't live up to the hype and
become as good as say, Rudy Gay? I understand there are mixed feelings toward Rudy because of his contract, but its not like he's a terrible player.
How long have we been waiting for an athletic wing who is taller and good enough to score on the best defenders and also defend them decently? and how long have we been waiting for a guy who can take over in the end and make clutch plays?
The reason I pose this is because everyone believes they both are a sure thing. I understand the type of potential wiggins has on both ends of the court plus his wing span, but can someone tell me the difference between a player like Wiggins and Gay in primes(serious question) how much better can we get with Wiggins and a Pf like Amir.
I actually like the 2 year plan to see how it all works out, I think if we had a legit PF like david west/ horford and back up Pg (of course if all other players we currently have develop like they should) we would be contenders. I'm all in for whatever direction Masai chooses, but just wanted to throw this question out as it was on my mind.

As for the Wiggins/Parker hype and the chance they don't live up to it, that's just how the draft works and not something to necessarily be afraid of in my opinion. Firstly, these are mega prospects being compared to the likes of Lebron, Carmelo, Durant, Oden. Notice I put a bust in there. Busts happen but with this level of prospect it's well worth a shot.

As for the Gay comparison, I'll grant you that Wiggins or whoever may not be better than him but there's many other factors. Gay has a horrendous contract which makes getting other assets here very difficult and furthermore the Raptors are stuck with other bad contracts at the same time during which they have Gay further limiting themselves. You get Wiggins or a different stud, and at least you have Ujiri to build this thing right while Wiggins is still on a rookie scale contract.

Lastly what is your plan to get Horford or West? These are legit all stars and the Raptors have one player who is appealing to other teams (Valanciunas). So is the trade Valanciunas for Horford? Face it, this team is currently maxed out. You either like it or you don't at this point, and I'm in the "against" camp. Wiggins et al. is just a clean slate and a chance - I think that's all the pro-tankers want.

[nodeal]

I wasn't sure where to post this or if it deserved its own thread. I posted this on another thread as well...

This is a question for everyone, seeing as most people including scouts believe that this coming draft is the
real deal and has future superstars in the making. What if players like Wiggins/Parker don't live up to the hype and
become as good as say, Rudy Gay? I understand there are mixed feelings toward Rudy because of his contract, but its not like he's a terrible player.
How long have we been waiting for an athletic wing who is taller and good enough to score on the best defenders and also defend them decently? and how long have we been waiting for a guy who can take over in the end and make clutch plays?
The reason I pose this is because everyone believes they both are a sure thing. I understand the type of potential wiggins has on both ends of the court plus his wing span, but can someone tell me the difference between a player like Wiggins and Gay in primes(serious question) how much better can we get with Wiggins and a Pf like Amir.
I actually like the 2 year plan to see how it all works out, I think if we had a legit PF like david west/ horford and back up Pg (of course if all other players we currently have develop like they should) we would be contenders. I'm all in for whatever direction Masai chooses, but just wanted to throw this question out as it was on my mind.

The size of the contract is very important. having a player like Rudy Gay on a 0-6yr(rookie scale+mini max) contract is great having a player like Rudy making 18-19M a year means you lose an important piece somewhere else. You also know when its time to re-sign him we are going to have to over pay or he walks.

To truly be successful in this league you need to have a roster worth 80+M. So overpaying players 1M here 5M there isnt going to get you anywhere. There are basically three ways to get the value of your roster over 80M.
1) go deep deep into the tax
2) Find a super star, super stars are generally way underpaid whether they are on a rookie scale contract or a 10+ yr contract.
3) Build around a lot of rookie scale contracts. Outside of superstars you will find bargains here. If you have enough bargains you start creeping up into the 80M range without going into the tax.

1) probably isnt an option. 2) and 3) would require a lot of draft picks/assets. That is where the rebuild comes into play.