The Ringer: Raptors should consider blowing it up

[Duffman100]

you stating there is, is no different that the ringer stating there isnt.

ok? Did I mistake this for a message board or something?

[LastNameEver]

Tank for RJ barrett

I literally watched that kid grow up and he didn't become good at basketball until his Dad's genes kicked in.
His mom also ran track, he's all genes.

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That is pretty much the same story with Wiggins lol although I would say RB Jr seems like a far more fluid ballhandler than Wiggins was at the same age. Personally if we're going to tank my focus would be more on doing so to get either Kostas Antentkounmpo (who is supposed to be even bigger and more athletic than Giannis was at the same age if that's possible) or Kevin Knoxx.

Fans would look at it as another Bruno side project, but you can definitely count on Jeff Weltman to scout Giannis' brother, if not already.

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[PhilBlackson]

I literally watched that kid grow up and he didn't become good at basketball until his Dad's genes kicked in.
His mom also ran track, he's all genes.

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk

That is pretty much the same story with Wiggins lol although I would say RB Jr seems like a far more fluid ballhandler than Wiggins was at the same age. Personally if we're going to tank my focus would be more on doing so to get either Kostas Antentkounmpo (who is supposed to be even bigger and more athletic than Giannis was at the same age if that's possible) or Kevin Knoxx.

Fans would look at it as another Bruno side project, but you can definitely count on Jeff Weltman to scout Giannis' brother, if not already.

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Those fans would be idiots lol Bruno should never be a gauge as he is by far the rawest prospect EVER.

Not saying that you are to be clear but people need to get over that and I hope Masai's **** pick of Bruno isn't what caused him to become a PER fiend but I would think considering how desperate Masai was to get Giannis that if he had any chance at Kostas it would be the biggest no brainer decision of his life. Bruno was basically picked out of broken heart of missing out on Giannis lol

Kostas is nothing like Bruno and if you watch him he is already looking quite a bit like Giannis out there which is scary considering Giannis looked borderline Bruno raw himself at the same age but was a much better athlete than Bruno. If we drafted Kostas I would be more excited than I was during young VC days but anyways I hope we do consider blowing it up because Kostas is legit and it's not like Michael Porter or Kevin Knoxx would be bad breaks lol.

[Harold_and_Kumar]

Interesting that blowing the team up is getting some traction on local radio, as well as some discussion about how Demar isn't a 1A and is more of a complimentary piece. Jeff Blair and Brunt are usually pretty straight-forward and honest in this respect and it's nice to see someone having an honest discussion about it.

[LastNameEver]

That is pretty much the same story with Wiggins lol although I would say RB Jr seems like a far more fluid ballhandler than Wiggins was at the same age. Personally if we're going to tank my focus would be more on doing so to get either Kostas Antentkounmpo (who is supposed to be even bigger and more athletic than Giannis was at the same age if that's possible) or Kevin Knoxx.

Fans would look at it as another Bruno side project, but you can definitely count on Jeff Weltman to scout Giannis' brother, if not already.

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk

Those fans would be idiots lol Bruno should never be a gauge as he is by far the rawest prospect EVER.

Not saying that you are to be clear but people need to get over that and I hope Masai's **** pick of Bruno isn't what caused him to become a PER fiend but I would think considering how desperate Masai was to get Giannis that if he had any chance at Kostas it would be the biggest no brainer decision of his life. Bruno was basically picked out of broken heart of missing out on Giannis lol

Kostas is nothing like Bruno and if you watch him he is already looking quite a bit like Giannis out there which is scary considering Giannis looked borderline Bruno raw himself at the same age but was a much better athlete than Bruno. If we drafted Kostas I would be more excited than I was during young VC days but anyways I hope we do consider blowing it up because Kostas is legit and it's not like Michael Porter or Kevin Knoxx would be bad breaks lol.

Kostas looks like less of risk and you can throw him into the fire right away.
But dialing it back a bit, I don't think the Raps have done as much due diligence in scouting lottery type prospects at this point in time. They are picking late as it currently stands.

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[Patman]

i dont know why there is so much hate surrounding Demar, he was clearly our best play for MOST of the playoffs without him the Raptors could barley score. Im in for a SEMI blow up but not a complete rebuild, Demar should be our cornerstone imagine how good Toronto would be if we had some decent 3 point shooters... Demar drive and kick would be deadly, no one on this roster can consistently hit a 3. I think Demar and Norm should be our cornerstone and everyone else should be expendable... that being said i dont think we should dump players for future assets only for other players that will make us better. Ive watched **** raptors ball for way too long and i am enjoying these consecutive playoff appearances, I will not watch ball if the raptors become a bottom team for the next 4-5 years... Lets be real, no team outside Cavs and Dubs are going to win it all this year does that mean every team should blow up their roster? lets just enjoy this ride as our team has never been this good.

How the heck can you have 2 cornerstones that play the same position?!

And Demar isn't a good enough defender or playmaker to play the 3 with Norm consistently.

Move Norm to PG.

People are too caught up on positions. As Coach Cal told Masai, the game is becoming positionless. It's more about certain skills. The issue is you need a decision maker somewhere. Norm and DD would be just fine at being able to bring up the ball. Kyle has really just been a scoring guard playing out of the high PnR for either a step back 3 or drive and step back 2. As Norm continues to develop I don't see why he couldn't be used in a similar fashion, the key will be Norm's ballhandling and decision making. If the team had a Draymond type of player they would be off to the races. Not saying someone like that is available (although Millsap comes to mind) but just playing Devil's Advocate that it could be possible with some development.

It's also as aside why I think Masai drafts Hartenstein if he's still available. He was seen scouting him several times and he has great passing potential. Not quite a Jokic but his passing and 3pt shooting will be welcomed.

Right now, his decision-making is very poor. You can't just force someone into the PG position. We rag on DeMar's playmaking sometimes, but even he's levels above where Norm is. If Norm has the ball and doesn't shoot, he puts the ball on the floor and just puts his head down. Teams that have him scouted know that they can just pack the paint on his drives because either he won't pass at all, or the pass won't be very good (i.e. his kickouts force us to reset the offense entirely).

Positionless basketball only works if players are already multi-skilled, like the Warriors and the Big 3 Heatles.

[CoachJReturns]

Interesting that blowing the team up is getting some traction on local radio, as well as some discussion about how Demar isn't a 1A and is more of a complimentary piece. Jeff Blair and Brunt are usually pretty straight-forward and honest in this respect and it's nice to see someone having an honest discussion about it.

It was bound to be discussed on radio a bit. I mean the team reached it's ceiling already and besides that there isn't a lot to talk about in local sports right now.

[VanWest82]

So two days ago I asked Kevin O'Connor about Demar's trade value:

As an aside, say we do decide to blow it up next year (or this off season for that matter). Demar is probably our best asset, but he's tricky to build around. Any idea what the Raptors might get for him, assuming he's able to replicate or improve upon the RS success he had this year?

He answered it indirectly in his article today:

But I don’t know if the Raptors can blow it up. Since the article published, I’ve asked around and a few front-office executives told me they don’t think there’s that much interest in DeRozan.

https://theringer.com/2017-nba-playoffs-team-offseason-rebuilding-raptors-clippers-bulls-pacers-f6b9c8062500

That pushes me even further toward 'bring back the band'. No point in tanking if we can't get much for Demar, arguably our biggest trade chip. I highly doubt he's interested in staying put through a rebuild, loyalty or no.

Pfftt...that's crap. There would be huge interest in Demar.

I found it interesting that in the span of two days both Zach Lowe and Kevin O'Conner both came out saying there wouldn't be much of a market for him based on information from their contacts in front offices around the league.

But if you don't believe me, try putting together two lists: one of teams that have appropriate assets to trade, and the other of teams where Demar would realistically be a good fit in terms of style of play, need, age and timeline of the roster. I bet there isn't much overlap.

[CoachJReturns]

Teams I could see wanting DeMar:

Dallas - Need a new star to sell to fans. Also may want to give Dirk one more winning team and be willing to add an established player.

Lakers - They've been going nowhere lately and might want to compete again. Whether Walton would want a player like DeMar is questionable though.

Philly - They can't keep losing forever. DeMar is a horrible fit with Simmons, if Simmons is back, but he's a talent upgrade.

Any other possibilities guys?

[VanWest82]

Teams I could see wanting DeMar:

Dallas - Need a new star to sell to fans. Also may want to give Dirk one more winning team and be willing to add an established player.

Lakers - They've been going nowhere lately and might want to compete again. Whether Walton would want a player like DeMar is questionable though.

Philly - They can't keep losing forever. DeMar is a horrible fit with Simmons, if Simmons is back, but he's a talent upgrade.

Any other possibilities guys?

See and I don't think any of those teams would want Demar. Dallas already has Harrison Barnes, who has a very similar game. Demar is the complete opposite of a Luke Walton type player - have to think he'd throw himself in front of that trade. Philly is so far away from competing right now. And does Demar fit alongside Simmons, who can't shoot and needs the ball?

Teams I think that might want Derozan based on the following criteria: need a score first wing, have a PG who can play off ball, team is either a playoff team or one piece away from being a playoff team.

1. Clips: CP3/DD/Luc/shooter/DJ would work
2. Heat: similar set up as Clips with Dragic and Whiteside. In need of reliable offense.
3. Hawks: Shroder/DD/Millsap core keeps them from fading out of playoffs
4. Utah: solid replacement for Hayward if he leaves.

Now compare that list to the teams with available assets to make a deal: Boston, Phoenix, Lakers (if they're able to keep their pick), Magic, 76ers, Denver, TWolves. There just isn't a lot of overlap.

[KevinOConnorNBA]

Teams I could see wanting DeMar:

Dallas - Need a new star to sell to fans. Also may want to give Dirk one more winning team and be willing to add an established player.

Lakers - They've been going nowhere lately and might want to compete again. Whether Walton would want a player like DeMar is questionable though.

Philly - They can't keep losing forever. DeMar is a horrible fit with Simmons, if Simmons is back, but he's a talent upgrade.

Any other possibilities guys?

How about the Kings? They got loads of cap space and DeRozan is locked up for years. They also have two top 10 picks and should keep them, but maybe they're desperate.

How about the Magic? Now they're desperate to make the playoffs, based off the moves they've made and from all rumors that we've seen put out into the world.

[slothrop8]

Teams I could see wanting DeMar:

Dallas - Need a new star to sell to fans. Also may want to give Dirk one more winning team and be willing to add an established player.

Lakers - They've been going nowhere lately and might want to compete again. Whether Walton would want a player like DeMar is questionable though.

Philly - They can't keep losing forever. DeMar is a horrible fit with Simmons, if Simmons is back, but he's a talent upgrade.

Any other possibilities guys?

How about the Kings? They got loads of cap space and DeRozan is locked up for years. They also have two top 10 picks and should keep them, but maybe they're desperate.

How about the Magic? Now they're desperate to make the playoffs, based off the moves they've made and from all rumors that we've seen put out into the world.

A 2 guard with decent size for the position who likes to score in volume and spam that midrange J sounds like a perfect fit for the ongoing quest to resurrect the triangle in New York.

[CoachJReturns]

Teams I could see wanting DeMar:

Dallas - Need a new star to sell to fans. Also may want to give Dirk one more winning team and be willing to add an established player.

Lakers - They've been going nowhere lately and might want to compete again. Whether Walton would want a player like DeMar is questionable though.

Philly - They can't keep losing forever. DeMar is a horrible fit with Simmons, if Simmons is back, but he's a talent upgrade.

Any other possibilities guys?

How about the Kings? They got loads of cap space and DeRozan is locked up for years. They also have two top 10 picks and should keep them, but maybe they're desperate.

How about the Magic? Now they're desperate to make the playoffs, based off the moves they've made and from all rumors that we've seen put out into the world.

Orlando works for me. How about Biz, filler and their pick for DeMar? They've been pretty awful at drafting/developing and should probably give it a rest for a while.

If we can move JV(I think he needs a change of scenery)then bringing back Biz would at least give us rim protection at center again. Long term I think Poeltl becomes our starter, but in the meantime we go with a pure defensive big.

We can use the pick on someone like Markannen(stretch 4), Dennis Smith Jr(Future Lowry replacement) or Jonathan Isaac(the combo forward we've needed for a while).

[Double Helix]

The bigger counter-question that seems to so regularly be missed is what's the hurry to rebuild? The end goal of each and every rebuild is to get to the level we are now at or higher. So, until we're sliding backwards more what's the hurry?

This point is rarely mentioned in these doom and gloom articles. If the current team is already successful, then what guarantee is there that the "rebuilt" team will ever be as good as the current team? When you blow a team up, you'll suck for 2-3 years before things start improving. Give it another 2-3 years and you may end up as good as the original team. Now you're back to where you started. The NBA landscape will have changed by then, and there's no guarantee that the new team will have a higher ceiling than what you previously blew up. If it doesn't, do you blow it up again and start another rebuild? The cycle never ends.

Lebron James is turning 33 years old later this year and he still leads the top team, and current champs. At this age span anything is possible for Lowry but also the Chosen One himself. What if he seriously has a really bad injury of any kind next year? What team would be better positioned than (asuming Ibaka and Lowry are re-signed) to capitalize on that then us? Boston if they move their draft pick for a superstar but it's really us and them and that's it. These things happen in sports and the closer you are in veteran age to pounce on the timing the better the peak you get. Consider when Michael Jordan left to play baseball. Can you imagine if the Houston Rockets had felt that it was time to blow things up since the Bulls had won 3 in a row and could probably win more? Maybe the Utah Jazz are 2-time champions right now instead. What if Curry's originally shaky ankles catch up to him later or the team struggles to keep all of its stars together?

When you're close, and you have quality vets, and you aren't clearly backsliding in quality yet I just don't see the rush to blow it up. It's very hard to move past a Conference Finals appearance. It requires a lot of things coming together at once, including timing and health.

I'm fine re-signing these guys and going at this for a few other seasons even if means we have Lowry being paid a ton on a team that's starting to rebuild during the last year or two of his deal. Sign them with the next 2 seasons in mind, hoping for some declines from others more reliant on athleticism than Lowry, and hope you also get a good 3rd year. Plan to rebuild around the end of the contract even with him around if you can't move him due to salary.

What just happened is precisely what I was advocating for opposite this Ringer blow it up article. I wrote here about the importance of luck and timing and being ready to pounce. One of the reasons this Championship will mean so much to me for so long is because this whole “I think we should keep trying to fight and retool and not rebuild just yet” mindset is something I told friends and family the past couple years due to us being close and they all remember it which is awesome.

[Kabookalu]

First post I saw on the last page was someone quoting Moose23 :vomit:

[tor1234567]

This point is rarely mentioned in these doom and gloom articles. If the current team is already successful, then what guarantee is there that the "rebuilt" team will ever be as good as the current team? When you blow a team up, you'll suck for 2-3 years before things start improving. Give it another 2-3 years and you may end up as good as the original team. Now you're back to where you started. The NBA landscape will have changed by then, and there's no guarantee that the new team will have a higher ceiling than what you previously blew up. If it doesn't, do you blow it up again and start another rebuild? The cycle never ends.

Lebron James is turning 33 years old later this year and he still leads the top team, and current champs. At this age span anything is possible for Lowry but also the Chosen One himself. What if he seriously has a really bad injury of any kind next year? What team would be better positioned than (asuming Ibaka and Lowry are re-signed) to capitalize on that then us? Boston if they move their draft pick for a superstar but it's really us and them and that's it. These things happen in sports and the closer you are in veteran age to pounce on the timing the better the peak you get. Consider when Michael Jordan left to play baseball. Can you imagine if the Houston Rockets had felt that it was time to blow things up since the Bulls had won 3 in a row and could probably win more? Maybe the Utah Jazz are 2-time champions right now instead. What if Curry's originally shaky ankles catch up to him later or the team struggles to keep all of its stars together?

When you're close, and you have quality vets, and you aren't clearly backsliding in quality yet I just don't see the rush to blow it up. It's very hard to move past a Conference Finals appearance. It requires a lot of things coming together at once, including timing and health.

I'm fine re-signing these guys and going at this for a few other seasons even if means we have Lowry being paid a ton on a team that's starting to rebuild during the last year or two of his deal. Sign them with the next 2 seasons in mind, hoping for some declines from others more reliant on athleticism than Lowry, and hope you also get a good 3rd year. Plan to rebuild around the end of the contract even with him around if you can't move him due to salary.

What just happened is precisely what I was advocating for opposite this Ringer blow it up article. I wrote here about the importance of luck and timing and being ready to pounce. One of the reasons this Championship will mean so much to me for so long is because this whole “I think we should keep trying to fight and retool and not rebuild just yet” mindset is something I told friends and family the past couple years due to us being close and they all remember it which is awesome.

I thought you were supposed to close your account after you predicted a series loss for the Raptors?

[Randle McMurphy]

This point is rarely mentioned in these doom and gloom articles. If the current team is already successful, then what guarantee is there that the "rebuilt" team will ever be as good as the current team? When you blow a team up, you'll suck for 2-3 years before things start improving. Give it another 2-3 years and you may end up as good as the original team. Now you're back to where you started. The NBA landscape will have changed by then, and there's no guarantee that the new team will have a higher ceiling than what you previously blew up. If it doesn't, do you blow it up again and start another rebuild? The cycle never ends.

Lebron James is turning 33 years old later this year and he still leads the top team, and current champs. At this age span anything is possible for Lowry but also the Chosen One himself. What if he seriously has a really bad injury of any kind next year? What team would be better positioned than (asuming Ibaka and Lowry are re-signed) to capitalize on that then us? Boston if they move their draft pick for a superstar but it's really us and them and that's it. These things happen in sports and the closer you are in veteran age to pounce on the timing the better the peak you get. Consider when Michael Jordan left to play baseball. Can you imagine if the Houston Rockets had felt that it was time to blow things up since the Bulls had won 3 in a row and could probably win more? Maybe the Utah Jazz are 2-time champions right now instead. What if Curry's originally shaky ankles catch up to him later or the team struggles to keep all of its stars together?

When you're close, and you have quality vets, and you aren't clearly backsliding in quality yet I just don't see the rush to blow it up. It's very hard to move past a Conference Finals appearance. It requires a lot of things coming together at once, including timing and health.

I'm fine re-signing these guys and going at this for a few other seasons even if means we have Lowry being paid a ton on a team that's starting to rebuild during the last year or two of his deal. Sign them with the next 2 seasons in mind, hoping for some declines from others more reliant on athleticism than Lowry, and hope you also get a good 3rd year. Plan to rebuild around the end of the contract even with him around if you can't move him due to salary.

What just happened is precisely what I was advocating for opposite this Ringer blow it up article. I wrote here about the importance of luck and timing and being ready to pounce. One of the reasons this Championship will mean so much to me for so long is because this whole “I think we should keep trying to fight and retool and not rebuild just yet” mindset is something I told friends and family the past couple years due to us being close and they all remember it which is awesome.

Except this title never happens unless they get rid of the inefficient, no-defence playing DeRozan and replace him with a genuine superstar rather than one that was only falsely billed as such in the city. Other than Lowry, Ujiri essentially did blow up this team from what it was two years ago.

[ATLTimekeeper]

I was so triggered by this article. But I nailed their predicament!!!

Should the Celtics blow it up? My rationale is this: yes, they're in first place currently, but they also have one of the worst net ratings for a conference leader in recent record. This is a placeholder contender, largely because the Cavs and Raptors have been dealing with injuries to all-stars for half a season. Second, they have an MVP candidate in Isaiah Thomas, but he's closer to Carmelo Anthony in terms of being only useful at one end of the court. He's also emotionally fragile and will be due a significant raise after next season. His trade value will never be higher than at the end of this season, but his size pretty much makes him physically incapable of playing defense. We saw this with Jose Calderon, who just didn't have the body to defend and so he was always a point of attack. After that they have Al Horford, who is a spectacular vet, but he is not a secondary scorer on a champion and will be an expensive glue guy going forward. Avery Bradley and Marcus Smart are also in IT's situation, they'll get paid for being role players on good teams. And this is also keeping in mind they will most certainly lose Amir Johnson, Kelly Olynyk and Jonas Jerebko in order to keep their cap sheet clean to make that big move.

Now of course, they have those Brooklyn picks and Jaylen Brown looks enticing, but historically it's been difficult to develop high picks on good teams. They come in with their own expectations, the vets on the team want to win now, the coaching staff is nitpicky. The draft is volatile enough as it is. Does it not make more sense to trade Thomas and Horford now and build around this year's Brooklyn pick and Jaylen Brown? What are the odds that they land an all-star in trade that meshes perfectly with what they need? They've been trying for years now. All the deals fall through. Everyone knows what they want, so it'll be harder for them to make a fair trade.

They flipped IT for Irving, who did not fit. Brown's ego swelled up, as did Scary Terry and Tatum's. I actually can tolerate KOC more than most Celtic fans, because his draft book is GOAT level, but I knew where he was coming from here.

[Double Helix]

Lebron James is turning 33 years old later this year and he still leads the top team, and current champs. At this age span anything is possible for Lowry but also the Chosen One himself. What if he seriously has a really bad injury of any kind next year? What team would be better positioned than (asuming Ibaka and Lowry are re-signed) to capitalize on that then us? Boston if they move their draft pick for a superstar but it's really us and them and that's it. These things happen in sports and the closer you are in veteran age to pounce on the timing the better the peak you get. Consider when Michael Jordan left to play baseball. Can you imagine if the Houston Rockets had felt that it was time to blow things up since the Bulls had won 3 in a row and could probably win more? Maybe the Utah Jazz are 2-time champions right now instead. What if Curry's originally shaky ankles catch up to him later or the team struggles to keep all of its stars together?

When you're close, and you have quality vets, and you aren't clearly backsliding in quality yet I just don't see the rush to blow it up. It's very hard to move past a Conference Finals appearance. It requires a lot of things coming together at once, including timing and health.

I'm fine re-signing these guys and going at this for a few other seasons even if means we have Lowry being paid a ton on a team that's starting to rebuild during the last year or two of his deal. Sign them with the next 2 seasons in mind, hoping for some declines from others more reliant on athleticism than Lowry, and hope you also get a good 3rd year. Plan to rebuild around the end of the contract even with him around if you can't move him due to salary.

What just happened is precisely what I was advocating for opposite this Ringer blow it up article. I wrote here about the importance of luck and timing and being ready to pounce. One of the reasons this Championship will mean so much to me for so long is because this whole “I think we should keep trying to fight and retool and not rebuild just yet” mindset is something I told friends and family the past couple years due to us being close and they all remember it which is awesome.

I thought you were supposed to close your account after you predicted a series loss for the Raptors?

Lol. My plan was reverse jinx prep. Whenever I got too excited bad losses happened. Whenever I was mad they bounced back. This whole run was like that and the Bucks being up 2-0 cemented it for me that any time I was feeling too high I’d instead convince myself and post here that bad times were ahead. We even had some PMs going between myself and other vet posters here about the reverse jinx but we dared not speak about the plan so as to throw off the basketball gods.

#Godsplan.