PG: Leagues most selfish team loses again

[Indeed]

I’m not saying I’m ringing the doorbell at the tWo clubhouse, but Paolo Banchero looking like a sure fire future superstar.

Banchero is out of reach. think we end up with the 4th-8th pick.

I am happy with Jalen Duren.

[johanliebert]

Man, as good of a shooter FVV is, guys are only making like....27% on 3's from his passes. 17% the last 3 games.

Guys are making 40%+ from OG, Trent, Siakam and Achuiwa. Even 34% from Barnes. (40% in November)

This is the problem with FVV pounding the ball. Yes he can score, but he doesn't actually make guys better through his playmaking, yet virtually everyone else is thriving off each others playmaking.

On the flip, FVV is a really good catch and shoot for 3 pointers. Like really really good.

How many passes do the other guys make? What’s their pass% or do we cherry pick metrics to fit any argument.

Og,Trent and achiuwa never look to pass.

[johanliebert]

The front office puts together a team with no shot creation, no shooting, no athleticism and the fan base expects a “beautiful” offence as many of you put it.

Logic like that is why many of you couldn’t see there were no plans on competing this season before Masai said it. Ball movement isn’t effective when the defence doesn’t respect 3/5 guys on the court..sometimes 4.

[Kingsway_fan]

Man, as good of a shooter FVV is, guys are only making like....27% on 3's from his passes. 17% the last 3 games.

Guys are making 40%+ from OG, Trent, Siakam and Achuiwa. Even 34% from Barnes. (40% in November)

This is the problem with FVV pounding the ball. Yes he can score, but he doesn't actually make guys better through his playmaking, yet virtually everyone else is thriving off each others playmaking.

On the flip, FVV is a really good catch and shoot for 3 pointers. Like really really good.

How many passes do the other guys make? What’s their pass% or do we cherry pick metrics to fit any argument.

Og,Trent and achiuwa never look to pass.

Scottie is the ONLY STARTER who is unselfish in his play... and that IS THE MAIN PROBLEM WITH THIS PATHETIC AND BORING OFFENSE....

[johanliebert]

Man, as good of a shooter FVV is, guys are only making like....27% on 3's from his passes. 17% the last 3 games.

Guys are making 40%+ from OG, Trent, Siakam and Achuiwa. Even 34% from Barnes. (40% in November)

This is the problem with FVV pounding the ball. Yes he can score, but he doesn't actually make guys better through his playmaking, yet virtually everyone else is thriving off each others playmaking.

On the flip, FVV is a really good catch and shoot for 3 pointers. Like really really good.

How many passes do the other guys make? What’s their pass% or do we cherry pick metrics to fit any argument.

Og,Trent and achiuwa never look to pass.

Scottie is the ONLY STARTER who is unselfish in his play... and that IS THE MAIN PROBLEM WITH THIS PATHETIC AND BORING OFFENSE....

Can’t expect a fun offence with the current pieces.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

The front office puts together a team with no shot creation, no shooting, no athleticism and the fan base expects a “beautiful” offence as many of you put it.

Logic like that is why many of you couldn’t see there were no plans on competing this season before Masai said it. Ball movement isn’t effective when the defence doesn’t respect 3/5 guys on the court..sometimes 4.

its only as good as the guy who has the ball in his hands in most situations I.e. FVV.

you don't see OG, GTJ jacking up shots in the beginning of the shot clock - always at the end.

[Gold Dragon]

Watching the game now. The large 6 minute stretch in the 2nd quarter when the team only scored 2 points was actually the longest stretch of the game where Fred didn't handle the ball. It was mostly, Banton and Barnes initially and then Malachi later on. I think the plan was mostly to get Fred off ball to do more scoring but the offense was so discombobulated he rarely got a shot. The last minute of that stretch was Fred managing the offense and included Svi and Precious missing wide open 3s badly.

[Indeed]

Raptors whined and complained all year about playing in Tampa just to go 2-8 in Toronto.
This team isn't even very fun to watch aside from Scottie.

To the people saying we were missing some players, Memphis didn't have their best player.

Yes and neither did we. OG is our best player in my mind. Trent is our best high-volume scorer. Birch is our best big. It's not as comparable. Yes the grizzlies are missing one player, who is their best player. But they have better depth.

I hate giving excuses, but these injuries have destroyed us. Like I'm not sure we can win a single game with the current guys on the floor unless we face a team like Houston or Orlando. The raptors don't have a lot of depth. They need their guys back.

That or our bench needs to elevate their game, which they have failed to do all year

This is the biggest issue and I'm going to keep harping on it until some people actually acknowledge the reason for our struggles lately.

Coming into this season, I thought we had better depth than last year because I was assuming Dragic would be a key piece for 15-20 minutes off the bench and Boucher would still be a solid role player (not the very efficient 14/7/2 player he was last year though). Obviously I was wrong on both accounts as it was clear from game 2 or 3 that we were focusing on developing Banton/Flynn meaning Dragic wouldn't get any burn and Boucher has been a shell of himself (6/4/1 on 45 TS%). Players that I assumed would be the 11th and 12th men (Svi and Banton) have played every game and they're averaging 19 and 13 MPG respectively. Flynn has been a massive disappointment, averaging 11/5/4 on 42 TS% per36 (14/5/5 on 48 TS% in his rookie season). Yuta missed most of the season so far and he struggled with his offence in the first 2 games, but he was very good tonight. We are counting on our depth to produce without 2 starters and another key bench piece, but they are failing miserably because they just aren't able to perform consistently yet. Most of our bench is extremely young and/or new to the team (Boucher and Yuta are the only currently available bench pieces older than 24), so it's understandable though.

I am one of few anti-tank posters on this board, but I am perfectly fine with the results lately. Our young guys are getting opportunities to play through some adversity and we're developing a lot of youth all at once. If these ugly 90-point offensive games with shoddy defence were consistently happening with OG and GTJ in the mix (and fully/mostly healthy in general), I'd start to worry and be disappointed. It doesn't make sense to do that now though because Nurse is literally playing all of our youth minutes that they quite honestly don't deserve and putting them in positions to prove themselves. Our future (and/or projects) is the main reason we are losing these games. Banton, Flynn and Svi have all been just terrible for most of these 10+ games since Siakam returned and the slump started. Bonga hasn't shown a whole lot in limited minutes lately. Even Scottie has been very up and down (like Nurse said in the post-game interview) and we've been a significantly better defensive team when he is off the floor. We're just a young and inexperienced team which is amplified when we're missing OG, GTJ and Birch.

We said the same in Bembry, but he is getting the same 20 mins on a contending team, and performing exactly the same (almost identical in stats). You got to wonder if Mykhailiuk and Banton are 11th and 12th, or like Bembry being 8th in the rotation.

I am anti-tank as well, but as you mentioned we are playing our young players who have not developed their 3 point shooting nor defense over Dragic, I think we are not way better even with Birch, OG and Trent come back, and maybe back around .500 (from win share missed games), which I am not sure if we should decide a direction now.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

I said the beginning of the season that I don’t trust a team led by FVV and people called me a hater. He’s just not a real leader and not a real pg.

even though I don't really hate Fred - i'm just a guy who won't protect him all in all because I do think he's a flawed player and the most repeated phrase is any team that utilizes him as an off ball guard, is going to succeed, because the talent that has the ball in his hand is an unselfish and team first type of guy - or maybe i'm just immortalizing Lowry.

anyways, the most important aspect of not trusting FVV is the notion that there are other players to trust other than FVV. there aren't any of those players yet.

Siakam? nah we know this guy is pretty much done - but will have a huge game here and there to pique our interests.
OG? well he's beginning to resemble the best aspects of a go-to player - his efficiency is going up and his 3 point shot is coming back since the two 2 duds to begin the season - but he's also hurt.
Barnes? rookie will make rookie mistakes.

FVV is just caught in the middle of the rebuilding/restructuring phase. you can't blame him for that. FVV will be great once Barnes and/or OG can make it known that they can handle the go-to role. Trade FVV if he can't handle that change in hierarchy tbh. FVV's defense and 3 point shooting is deadly for a team where they have to double Barnes or OG. Siakam right now is just single coverage because he's more a liability to himself.

again, this team will be better if and once Barnes and OG become that combo we've been waiting for. OR wait for some guy we draft in this upcoming draft.

FVV and Siakam will be great once we find a player to knock them down a peg or two. but also another sad but maybe inevitable thing is to trade them via Demar style to get that player. who knows.

[Ref_from_hell]

Watching the game now. The large 6 minute stretch in the 2nd quarter when the team only scored 2 points was actually the longest stretch of the game where Fred didn't handle the ball. It was mostly, Banton and Barnes initially and then Malachi later on. I think the plan was mostly to get Fred off ball to do more scoring but the offense was so discombobulated he rarely got a shot. The last minute of that stretch was Fred managing the offense and included Svi and Precious missing wide open 3s badly.

Be careful, this tempered logic goes against the herd narrative!

[Jadoogar]

Raptors whined and complained all year about playing in Tampa just to go 2-8 in Toronto.
This team isn't even very fun to watch aside from Scottie.

To the people saying we were missing some players, Memphis didn't have their best player.

Yes and neither did we. OG is our best player in my mind. Trent is our best high-volume scorer. Birch is our best big. It's not as comparable. Yes the grizzlies are missing one player, who is their best player. But they have better depth.

I hate giving excuses, but these injuries have destroyed us. Like I'm not sure we can win a single game with the current guys on the floor unless we face a team like Houston or Orlando. The raptors don't have a lot of depth. They need their guys back.

That or our bench needs to elevate their game, which they have failed to do all year

no team in the league is fully healthy. Lakers missed Lebron for large portions, Celtics were without Jaylen Brown, Warriors still don't have Klay, the list is endless.
I thought the whole point of roster was that we had several switchable guys and roster depth. But our depth is unproven or frankly, pretty bad players.
Relying on Khem Birch to come save us is not an enviable position.

[Ref_from_hell]

Raptors whined and complained all year about playing in Tampa just to go 2-8 in Toronto.
This team isn't even very fun to watch aside from Scottie.

To the people saying we were missing some players, Memphis didn't have their best player.

Yes and neither did we. OG is our best player in my mind. Trent is our best high-volume scorer. Birch is our best big. It's not as comparable. Yes the grizzlies are missing one player, who is their best player. But they have better depth.

I hate giving excuses, but these injuries have destroyed us. Like I'm not sure we can win a single game with the current guys on the floor unless we face a team like Houston or Orlando. The raptors don't have a lot of depth. They need their guys back.

That or our bench needs to elevate their game, which they have failed to do all year

no team in the league is fully healthy. Lakers missed Lebron for large portions, Celtics were without Jaylen Brown, Warriors still don't have Klay, the list is endless.
I thought the whole point of roster was that we had several switchable guys and roster depth. But our depth is unproven or frankly, pretty bad players.
Relying on Khem Birch to come save us is not an enviable position.

Okay so you just listed off a bunch of teams missing one player. I stand by what I said. Our injuries are more significant. Yes, all teams have injuries, but ours has affected us to a greater degree than other teams because we lack depth and our bench players are not performing. Say what you will about Birch, but he has been outstanding this year. When your only other big is Boucher coming off the bench, yes you do have to rely on Birch.

[Jadoogar]

Yes and neither did we. OG is our best player in my mind. Trent is our best high-volume scorer. Birch is our best big. It's not as comparable. Yes the grizzlies are missing one player, who is their best player. But they have better depth.

I hate giving excuses, but these injuries have destroyed us. Like I'm not sure we can win a single game with the current guys on the floor unless we face a team like Houston or Orlando. The raptors don't have a lot of depth. They need their guys back.

That or our bench needs to elevate their game, which they have failed to do all year

no team in the league is fully healthy. Lakers missed Lebron for large portions, Celtics were without Jaylen Brown, Warriors still don't have Klay, the list is endless.
I thought the whole point of roster was that we had several switchable guys and roster depth. But our depth is unproven or frankly, pretty bad players.
Relying on Khem Birch to come save us is not an enviable position.

Okay so you just listed off a bunch of teams missing one player. I stand by what I said. Our injuries are more significant. Yes, all teams have injuries, but ours has affected us to a greater degree than other teams because we lack depth and our bench players are not performing. Say what you will about Birch, but he has been outstanding this year. When your only other big is Boucher coming off the bench, yes you do have to rely on Birch.

Jaylen Brown is more important to the Celtics than all three of our players combined.

[ItsDanger]

Man, as good of a shooter FVV is, guys are only making like....27% on 3's from his passes. 17% the last 3 games.

Guys are making 40%+ from OG, Trent, Siakam and Achuiwa. Even 34% from Barnes. (40% in November)

This is the problem with FVV pounding the ball. Yes he can score, but he doesn't actually make guys better through his playmaking, yet virtually everyone else is thriving off each others playmaking.

On the flip, FVV is a really good catch and shoot for 3 pointers. Like really really good.

Exactly. Watch a good college PG to see the difference.

[OakleyDokely]

Raptors whined and complained all year about playing in Tampa just to go 2-8 in Toronto.
This team isn't even very fun to watch aside from Scottie.

To the people saying we were missing some players, Memphis didn't have their best player.

Yes and neither did we. OG is our best player in my mind. Trent is our best high-volume scorer. Birch is our best big. It's not as comparable. Yes the grizzlies are missing one player, who is their best player. But they have better depth.

I hate giving excuses, but these injuries have destroyed us. Like I'm not sure we can win a single game with the current guys on the floor unless we face a team like Houston or Orlando. The raptors don't have a lot of depth. They need their guys back.

That or our bench needs to elevate their game, which they have failed to do all year

no team in the league is fully healthy. Lakers missed Lebron for large portions, Celtics were without Jaylen Brown, Warriors still don't have Klay, the list is endless.
I thought the whole point of roster was that we had several switchable guys and roster depth. But our depth is unproven or frankly, pretty bad players.
Relying on Khem Birch to come save us is not an enviable position.

But you listed 3 teams built to contend right now. The Raps are a rebuilding team and aren't at that level, even when healthy.

The Raps were expected to be in the play-in range competing with teams like CHA, IND, NY, WAS, CLE etc. I think they can be if they're reasonably healthy.

[ItsDanger]

Why is Bonga on this roster? Obviously our bench lacked offense.

[rarefind]

I’m not saying I’m ringing the doorbell at the tWo clubhouse, but Paolo Banchero looking like a sure fire future superstar.

Banchero is out of reach. think we end up with the 4th-8th pick.

I am happy with Jalen Duren.

That Banchero loses 7 lbs a game/super prone to cramps thing is not great.

[Jadoogar]

Yes and neither did we. OG is our best player in my mind. Trent is our best high-volume scorer. Birch is our best big. It's not as comparable. Yes the grizzlies are missing one player, who is their best player. But they have better depth.

I hate giving excuses, but these injuries have destroyed us. Like I'm not sure we can win a single game with the current guys on the floor unless we face a team like Houston or Orlando. The raptors don't have a lot of depth. They need their guys back.

That or our bench needs to elevate their game, which they have failed to do all year

no team in the league is fully healthy. Lakers missed Lebron for large portions, Celtics were without Jaylen Brown, Warriors still don't have Klay, the list is endless.
I thought the whole point of roster was that we had several switchable guys and roster depth. But our depth is unproven or frankly, pretty bad players.
Relying on Khem Birch to come save us is not an enviable position.

But you listed 3 teams built to contend right now. The Raps are a rebuilding team and aren't at that level, even when healthy.

The Raps were expected to be in the play-in range competing with teams like CHA, IND, NY, WAS, CLE etc. I think they can be if they're reasonably healthy.

all 6 of the teams you listed have been better than the raptors. Cleveland missed Mobley for 2 weeks and now Sexton is out for the season. Pacers are missing TJ Warren. Knicks missed Mitchell Robinson for a while

Injuries are just a lazy excuse considering basically every team is missing players. No team is going to have 100% health all season.

I don't mind losing to the Nets or our recent road games or even the Celtics, that makes sense, those teams are significantly better than us. There's no excuse to lose to the Grizzlies without Morant at home.

[OakleyDokely]

no team in the league is fully healthy. Lakers missed Lebron for large portions, Celtics were without Jaylen Brown, Warriors still don't have Klay, the list is endless.
I thought the whole point of roster was that we had several switchable guys and roster depth. But our depth is unproven or frankly, pretty bad players.
Relying on Khem Birch to come save us is not an enviable position.

But you listed 3 teams built to contend right now. The Raps are a rebuilding team and aren't at that level, even when healthy.

The Raps were expected to be in the play-in range competing with teams like CHA, IND, NY, WAS, CLE etc. I think they can be if they're reasonably healthy.

all 6 of the teams you listed have been better than the raptors. Cleveland missed Mobley for 2 weeks and now Sexton is out for the season. Pacers are missing TJ Warren. Knicks missed Mitchell Robinson for a while

Injuries are just a lazy excuse considering basically every team is missing players. No team is going to have 100% health all season.

I don't mind losing to the Nets or our recent road games or even the Celtics, that makes sense, those teams are significantly better than us. There's no excuse to lose to the Grizzlies without Morant at home.

No doubt that expecting to be 100% healthy all season is unrealistic, but do you expect this team to win regularly missing 2 starters consistently all season?

The team is too young and not deep enough to deal with it.

[ItsDanger]

An old sports mantra, the best players make their teammates better.

Do Fred and Pascal do that? No.

Therefore, all options should be on the table,