Remind me why the Raptors traded Norman Powell

[Pooh_Jeter]

Preferring a late 1st over a productive GTJ is an all-time bad take.

And the funny thing is, you just know Masai would be roasted if he were to trade GTJ tomorrow for the 28th pick.

and when that 28th pick turns into someone not as good as Powell or GTJ, Masai can't draft either.

There are moves Masai can be seriously questioned on, but trading a FA role player for a younger role player is really low on that list.

The "late 1st" crowd doesn't understand expected value.

"We could have had a cost controlled player." That's great in theory except for one small issue: the normal outcome for a late 1st is right around Malachi Flynn. The expected value of a late 1st is a deep bench player or a bust. How is that any more valuable than 2.5 years of what GTJ provided? That doesn't even account for the fact that GTJ was 22 when we acquired him, was a proven shooter with flashes of upside in other areas. Trent didn't get there but a 22 year old proven NBA player who still has upside is worth far more @ $18m/year than the 27th pick making $1.5m when you consider the normal outcome.

2.5 years of GTJ > average outcome of a late 1st

The mystery box posters always treat the box as best possible outcome. They did it with Koloko too. "We would have drafted Kessler" while ignoring that 11 other players were drafted in that range as well, many of whom will bust.

The average outcome of the #1 pick is John Wall. Probably not even worth a S&T of FVV for it, I'd rather have the known quantity than Victor.

If you're going to take this approach, why hold any value in draft picks at all? Or is this just an attempt to justify a bad move yet again?

[Steelo Green]

The endless justification for every Masai move is comedic.

The what ended up being the 20th for the 33rd pick justification still makes me laugh. That same Thad garnered no respect from the rookie Scottie he was supposed to mentor.

[YogurtProducer]

and when that 28th pick turns into someone not as good as Powell or GTJ, Masai can't draft either.

There are moves Masai can be seriously questioned on, but trading a FA role player for a younger role player is really low on that list.

The "late 1st" crowd doesn't understand expected value.

"We could have had a cost controlled player." That's great in theory except for one small issue: the normal outcome for a late 1st is right around Malachi Flynn. The expected value of a late 1st is a deep bench player or a bust. How is that any more valuable than 2.5 years of what GTJ provided? That doesn't even account for the fact that GTJ was 22 when we acquired him, was a proven shooter with flashes of upside in other areas. Trent didn't get there but a 22 year old proven NBA player who still has upside is worth far more @ $18m/year than the 27th pick making $1.5m when you consider the normal outcome.

2.5 years of GTJ > average outcome of a late 1st

The mystery box posters always treat the box as best possible outcome. They did it with Koloko too. "We would have drafted Kessler" while ignoring that 11 other players were drafted in that range as well, many of whom will bust.

The average outcome of the #1 pick is John Wall. Probably not even worth a S&T of FVV for it, I'd rather have the known quantity than Victor.

If you're going to take this approach, why hold any value in draft picks at all? Or is this just an attempt to justify a bad move yet again?

Wait, does FVV suck or is he better than prime John Wall?

[YogurtProducer]

The endless justification for every Masai move is comedic.

The what ended up being the 20th for the 33rd pick justification still makes me laugh. That same Thad garnered no respect from the rookie Scottie he was supposed to mentor.

The endless complaining is comedic.

All these bad moves and all we seem to be able to point to is trading down 13 spots, and trading Norman Powell for Gary Trent Jr.

When you look at it that way, is it not clear maybe you guys are the irrational ones?

[mdenny]

The "late 1st" crowd doesn't understand expected value.

"We could have had a cost controlled player." That's great in theory except for one small issue: the normal outcome for a late 1st is right around Malachi Flynn. The expected value of a late 1st is a deep bench player or a bust. How is that any more valuable than 2.5 years of what GTJ provided? That doesn't even account for the fact that GTJ was 22 when we acquired him, was a proven shooter with flashes of upside in other areas. Trent didn't get there but a 22 year old proven NBA player who still has upside is worth far more @ $18m/year than the 27th pick making $1.5m when you consider the normal outcome.

2.5 years of GTJ > average outcome of a late 1st

The mystery box posters always treat the box as best possible outcome. They did it with Koloko too. "We would have drafted Kessler" while ignoring that 11 other players were drafted in that range as well, many of whom will bust.

The average outcome of the #1 pick is John Wall. Probably not even worth a S&T of FVV for it, I'd rather have the known quantity than Victor.

If you're going to take this approach, why hold any value in draft picks at all? Or is this just an attempt to justify a bad move yet again?

Wait, does FVV suck or is he better than prime John Wall?

Right. Noone is saying picks are of little value. But there IS an average/expected outcome which ppl seem to be in denial of. The way ppl talk about prospects during the season leading up to their draft year is WAYYY too optimistic.

There seems to be a consistent pattern amongst fans in glorifying young players with potential and being so down on established players.

[mdenny]

The endless justification for every Masai move is comedic.

The what ended up being the 20th for the 33rd pick justification still makes me laugh. That same Thad garnered no respect from the rookie Scottie he was supposed to mentor.

The endless complaining is comedic.

All these bad moves and all we seem to be able to point to is trading down 13 spots, and trading Norman Powell for Gary Trent Jr.

When you look at it that way, is it not clear maybe you guys are the irrational ones?

Boucher recently said that Thad was extremely important in the raptors dressing room.

If Thad garnered no respect from scotty (a claim for which I don't think proof exists) then that's cause to be concerned about scotty more than anything else.

[Los_29]

and when that 28th pick turns into someone not as good as Powell or GTJ, Masai can't draft either.

There are moves Masai can be seriously questioned on, but trading a FA role player for a younger role player is really low on that list.

The "late 1st" crowd doesn't understand expected value.

"We could have had a cost controlled player." That's great in theory except for one small issue: the normal outcome for a late 1st is right around Malachi Flynn. The expected value of a late 1st is a deep bench player or a bust. How is that any more valuable than 2.5 years of what GTJ provided? That doesn't even account for the fact that GTJ was 22 when we acquired him, was a proven shooter with flashes of upside in other areas. Trent didn't get there but a 22 year old proven NBA player who still has upside is worth far more @ $18m/year than the 27th pick making $1.5m when you consider the normal outcome.

2.5 years of GTJ > average outcome of a late 1st

The mystery box posters always treat the box as best possible outcome. They did it with Koloko too. "We would have drafted Kessler" while ignoring that 11 other players were drafted in that range as well, many of whom will bust.

The average outcome of the #1 pick is John Wall. Probably not even worth a S&T of FVV for it, I'd rather have the known quantity than Victor.

If you're going to take this approach, why hold any value in draft picks at all? Or is this just an attempt to justify a bad move yet again?

We are discussing Norm though. Posters, including yourself wanted him traded for a late FRP or SRPs. I think it's safe to say that FRPs weren't being offered given how little value Norm had just 9 months later when he got traded again. I think we can all agree that drafting in that range is a crapshoot and the likelihood of getting yourself a player in that range is extremely small. What we got in return is what any young, rebuilding team would want. And that's a 22 year old, young player who has proven skills at the NBA level. Over the past couple of years, GTJ has been the more productive player and is seen around the league as the more valuable asset as evidenced by the Blazers trading Norm for an expiring contract just last year.

[NinjaBro]

your problem is that you're expectations for what a free agent role player brings back in a trade is completely unrealistic.

We have no idea if a 1st was ever offered for Norm by the way, but I know what won't stop you from pretending it was.

Name the rentals who were traded for a 1st at this deadline.

Jakob Poetl, Josh Hart (PO who will opt out),

Who we now have to sign so it's not a rental similar to what Portland did.

Saddiq Bey got 5 seconds. Give me that over Trent. There was no benefit of Trent, and now he leaves for nothing.

The Raps got 2.5 years of solid rotation / starter play from him and we have no idea if he's leaving for nothing. That's just your speculation.

That 1st rounder you wanted instead would be soon up for an extension by the way, if he actually worked out. A 2nd rounder on a typically shorter deal would need to paid very soon.

Oakley, don't waste your time trying to use logic and common sense when engaging Steelo Green in basketball discussions. Good young proven quality rotational players >>>>>>>> unknown first round pick. That is a fact and it's exactly what our front office has said publicly that they prefer. So another all time bad take by Steelo Green.

Go hug and kiss your baby, take a walk and enjoy the fresh air. Infinite amount of things better to do than argue with "bad take" Steelo.

[ItsDanger]

If that's true, we should be able to get a 1st in a S&T for Trent. I hope you're right. That would be solid value.

[ConSarnit]

The "late 1st" crowd doesn't understand expected value.

"We could have had a cost controlled player." That's great in theory except for one small issue: the normal outcome for a late 1st is right around Malachi Flynn. The expected value of a late 1st is a deep bench player or a bust. How is that any more valuable than 2.5 years of what GTJ provided? That doesn't even account for the fact that GTJ was 22 when we acquired him, was a proven shooter with flashes of upside in other areas. Trent didn't get there but a 22 year old proven NBA player who still has upside is worth far more @ $18m/year than the 27th pick making $1.5m when you consider the normal outcome.

2.5 years of GTJ > average outcome of a late 1st

The mystery box posters always treat the box as best possible outcome. They did it with Koloko too. "We would have drafted Kessler" while ignoring that 11 other players were drafted in that range as well, many of whom will bust.

The average outcome of the #1 pick is John Wall. Probably not even worth a S&T of FVV for it, I'd rather have the known quantity than Victor.

If you're going to take this approach, why hold any value in draft picks at all? Or is this just an attempt to justify a bad move yet again?

Wait, does FVV suck or is he better than prime John Wall?

Don't worry, it's just the dregs of the board dreg'n it up as always. #1 pick average outcome:

averages 4 all-star games
30% chance they make the HOF

Honestly, how are there posters on a basketball forum that think that FVV is not worth a 20 year old John Wall?

[WaltFrazier]

The "late 1st" crowd doesn't understand expected value.

"We could have had a cost controlled player." That's great in theory except for one small issue: the normal outcome for a late 1st is right around Malachi Flynn. The expected value of a late 1st is a deep bench player or a bust. How is that any more valuable than 2.5 years of what GTJ provided? That doesn't even account for the fact that GTJ was 22 when we acquired him, was a proven shooter with flashes of upside in other areas. Trent didn't get there but a 22 year old proven NBA player who still has upside is worth far more @ $18m/year than the 27th pick making $1.5m when you consider the normal outcome.

2.5 years of GTJ > average outcome of a late 1st

The mystery box posters always treat the box as best possible outcome. They did it with Koloko too. "We would have drafted Kessler" while ignoring that 11 other players were drafted in that range as well, many of whom will bust.

The average outcome of the #1 pick is John Wall. Probably not even worth a S&T of FVV for it, I'd rather have the known quantity than Victor.

If you're going to take this approach, why hold any value in draft picks at all? Or is this just an attempt to justify a bad move yet again?

We are discussing Norm though. Posters, including yourself wanted him traded for a late FRP or SRPs. I think it's safe to say that FRPs weren't being offered given how little value Norm had just 9 months later when he got traded again. I think we can all agree that drafting in that range is a crapshoot and the likelihood of getting yourself a player in that range is extremely small. What we got in return is what any young, rebuilding team would want. And that's a 22 year old, young player who has proven skills at the NBA level. Over the past couple of years, GTJ has been the more productive player and is seen around the league as the more valuable asset as evidenced by the Blazers trading Norm for an expiring contract just last year.

You're hanging a lot on Portland trading Norm, as if their FO is infallible. Norm went and played great for the Clippers this year, could it be Portland made a mistake?

[Los_29]

The average outcome of the #1 pick is John Wall. Probably not even worth a S&T of FVV for it, I'd rather have the known quantity than Victor.

If you're going to take this approach, why hold any value in draft picks at all? Or is this just an attempt to justify a bad move yet again?

We are discussing Norm though. Posters, including yourself wanted him traded for a late FRP or SRPs. I think it's safe to say that FRPs weren't being offered given how little value Norm had just 9 months later when he got traded again. I think we can all agree that drafting in that range is a crapshoot and the likelihood of getting yourself a player in that range is extremely small. What we got in return is what any young, rebuilding team would want. And that's a 22 year old, young player who has proven skills at the NBA level. Over the past couple of years, GTJ has been the more productive player and is seen around the league as the more valuable asset as evidenced by the Blazers trading Norm for an expiring contract just last year.

You're hanging a lot on Portland trading Norm, as if their FO is infallible. Norm went and played great for the Clippers this year, could it be Portland made a mistake?

Norm is the same player he was in Toronto. That's what his value was when he was in Portland. That's how much teams value him. Nothing has changed.

[DreamTeam09]

The average outcome of the #1 pick is John Wall. Probably not even worth a S&T of FVV for it, I'd rather have the known quantity than Victor.

If you're going to take this approach, why hold any value in draft picks at all? Or is this just an attempt to justify a bad move yet again?

We are discussing Norm though. Posters, including yourself wanted him traded for a late FRP or SRPs. I think it's safe to say that FRPs weren't being offered given how little value Norm had just 9 months later when he got traded again. I think we can all agree that drafting in that range is a crapshoot and the likelihood of getting yourself a player in that range is extremely small. What we got in return is what any young, rebuilding team would want. And that's a 22 year old, young player who has proven skills at the NBA level. Over the past couple of years, GTJ has been the more productive player and is seen around the league as the more valuable asset as evidenced by the Blazers trading Norm for an expiring contract just last year.

You're hanging a lot on Portland trading Norm, as if their FO is infallible. Norm went and played great for the Clippers this year, could it be Portland made a mistake?

Clippers would've traded Norman Powell for Eric Gordan this past deadline, the other team didn't want him and they move Kennard instead. That shows what type of sway Norm has around the league.

[OakleyDokely]

Norm's contract is fair but he isn't the greatest value. He's still owed close to 60 million through 2026, which is the upper limit you want to pay for a one way bench player whose going to be 30. Only certain teams would be interested in him.

[PerfectJab]

It's funny looking back as the ceiling of this roster is definitely higher with Powell in it vs GTJ.

[Los_29]

It's funny looking back as the ceiling of this roster is definitely higher with Powell in it vs GTJ.

Isn't Norm like 30? lol.

[PerfectJab]

well they're 5 years apart. If this core is still together in 5 years the FO is doing something wrong but Powell's efficiency on the offensive end would definitely help the core as is get more w's. GTJ is basically Lou Williams, streaky but not incredibly efficient and I'd argue that a players efficiency can help to make your teammates get better shots and gain confidence as a result.

[dTox]

I didn't know where to post this, and didn't want to start a new thread.

Read on Twitter

[mdenny]

I didn't know where to post this, and didn't want to start a new thread.

Read on Twitter

Fred and Pascal were extremely angry with this trade. They never fully embraced Trent because of it.

Powell was literally one of the worst team defenders in the history of basketball. And nurse's defense was ALL about team defense....but Gary wasn't much better. And when you watched those games....there were ALOT of side-eyes from Pascal and fred directed at Gary.

When powell fumbled the switch-heavy schematics they just accepted him for who he was lol.

[Basketball_Jones]

Trading Norm was where the culture started to falter a bit. Puzzling move but I can’t say I was expecting this type of season from him this far in his career. Props to him. Ultimately we are now looking for Gradey or Walter to be our next Norm Powell lol