Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 6

[Duffman100]

they really **** kept a ballhog hobbit and hindered Scottie's growth for 1 year.

Fred was on the team in Scottie’s rookie season. A season in which he won ROTY.

Only person to blame for his struggles is himself. No excuses. I’m optimistic he will rebound in a big way though. Need that efficiency to be way higher. Can’t have a non-shooter at his size with a TS% of 52%.

Adding on, Scottie's numbers were drastically better with Fred on the floor than when Fred wasn't on the floor.

But maybe the whole narrative of Scottie being depressed due to the **** offensive system is true.

Either way, I'm sort of sick making excuses for players. Whoever shows up and plays well, plays well. You can't hold true talent back. Hoping for a massive bounce back from Scottie, first preseason game he looked legit.

[Johnny Bball]

they really **** kept a ballhog hobbit and hindered Scottie's growth for 1 year.

Fred was on the team in Scottie’s rookie season. A season in which he won ROTY.

Only person to blame for his struggles is himself. No excuses. I’m optimistic he will rebound in a big way though. Need that efficiency to be way higher. Can’t have a non-shooter at his size with a TS% of 52%.

Adding on, Scottie's numbers were drastically better with Fred on the floor than when Fred wasn't on the floor.

But maybe the whole narrative of Scottie being depressed due to the **** offensive system is true.

Either way, I'm sort of sick making excuses for players. Whoever shows up and plays well, plays well. You can't hold true talent back. Hoping for a massive bounce back from Scottie, first preseason game he looked legit.

I'm just surprised either of you take that guy seriously.

[will]

One of Scottie's biggest issues has always been maintaining his aggression throughout entire games. How many times last years did we see him completely take over the 4th Q and put up like 12/5/5 in the last 6 minutes of the game after being completely invisible for most of it. He's so strong and solid around the rim that just being aggressive will get him a bunch of points in the paint off rebounds, put backs and free throws because most NBA players can't body up with him, especially when teams have a wing on him. He could put up something like 20 / 8 / 6 without much of a jumper if he just played at a high pace all game. A consistent jumper would take him to a whole other level.

You’re absolutely right. He needs to watch Giannis play and realize the main reason Giannis is great is his absolute relentlessness powering his way to the hoop all game long and his never wavering motor in every aspect of the game. He is still a sub par shooter as a top 2 player in the league. Scottie has similar physical tools that will allow him to do similar things as Giannis if he can show the will to bulldoze people at least 10 times a game.

Pounding his way to the hoop all game long would have been more fitting

[Badonkadonk]

they really **** kept a ballhog hobbit and hindered Scottie's growth for 1 year.

Fred was on the team in Scottie’s rookie season. A season in which he won ROTY.

Only person to blame for his struggles is himself. No excuses. I’m optimistic he will rebound in a big way though. Need that efficiency to be way higher. Can’t have a non-shooter at his size with a TS% of 52%.

Adding on, Scottie's numbers were drastically better with Fred on the floor than when Fred wasn't on the floor.

But maybe the whole narrative of Scottie being depressed due to the **** offensive system is true.

Either way, I'm sort of sick making excuses for players. Whoever shows up and plays well, plays well. You can't hold true talent back. Hoping for a massive bounce back from Scottie, first preseason game he looked legit.

People still bringing up FVV, and also not understanding he was often the only 3p thread above the break in a dysfunctional offence, in the year of our lord 2023. I bet these ppl will still be doing it 10 years from now

[tsherkin]

People still bringing up FVV, and also not understanding he was often the only 3p thread above the break in a dysfunctional offence, in the year of our lord 2023. I bet these ppl will still be doing it 10 years from now

But he wasn't, though, that's the thing.

He shot 33.1% above the break in 2023. He was a threat the year before at 36.7%. In 2023, only Lebron, Max Strus and Kyle Kuzma shot WORSE above the break on 5+ 3PA/g from above the break, for what it's worth.

He has previously been a threat from there, but he was horrifically bad last year.

[cbosh4mvp]

they really **** kept a ballhog hobbit and hindered Scottie's growth for 1 year.

Fred was on the team in Scottie’s rookie season. A season in which he won ROTY.

Only person to blame for his struggles is himself. No excuses. I’m optimistic he will rebound in a big way though. Need that efficiency to be way higher. Can’t have a non-shooter at his size with a TS% of 52%.

Adding on, Scottie's numbers were drastically better with Fred on the floor than when Fred wasn't on the floor.

But maybe the whole narrative of Scottie being depressed due to the **** offensive system is true.

Either way, I'm sort of sick making excuses for players. Whoever shows up and plays well, plays well. You can't hold true talent back. Hoping for a massive bounce back from Scottie, first preseason game he looked legit.

This is exactly it. A guy who is determined to be great can be defeated by no obstacle. Good point and one I've made before about Scottie.

[sbsat]

People still bringing up FVV, and also not understanding he was often the only 3p thread above the break in a dysfunctional offence, in the year of our lord 2023. I bet these ppl will still be doing it 10 years from now

But he wasn't, though, that's the thing.

He shot 33.1% above the break in 2023. He was a threat the year before at 36.7%. In 2023, only Lebron, Max Strus and Kyle Kuzma shot WORSE above the break on 5+ 3PA/g from above the break, for what it's worth.

He has previously been a threat from there, but he was horrifically bad last year.

Come on you know what the poster meant. A priori fred was a the above the break thrwat coming into last year. That's how the offense was run and that was based on freds previous ability to be effective from there. Hindsight is 20/20 and fred was one of a few raptors who underachieved last year.

[SkywalkerAC]

Fred was on the team in Scottie’s rookie season. A season in which he won ROTY.

Only person to blame for his struggles is himself. No excuses. I’m optimistic he will rebound in a big way though. Need that efficiency to be way higher. Can’t have a non-shooter at his size with a TS% of 52%.

Adding on, Scottie's numbers were drastically better with Fred on the floor than when Fred wasn't on the floor.

But maybe the whole narrative of Scottie being depressed due to the **** offensive system is true.

Either way, I'm sort of sick making excuses for players. Whoever shows up and plays well, plays well. You can't hold true talent back. Hoping for a massive bounce back from Scottie, first preseason game he looked legit.

This is exactly it. A guy who is determined to be great can be defeated by no obstacle. Good point and one I've made before about Scottie.

Yeah, I get sick of the "holding back his development" narrative. Challenges and tough times are learning experiences that force development, as long as the individual is up to the challenge. Who's to say Scottie isn't a better player this year because of the the difficulties last year? FVV may have hindered Scottie's performance last year, but development doesn't really work like that (as long as you're getting on the court, getting decent usage, etc).

[canada_dry]

People still bringing up FVV, and also not understanding he was often the only 3p thread above the break in a dysfunctional offence, in the year of our lord 2023. I bet these ppl will still be doing it 10 years from now

But he wasn't, though, that's the thing.

He shot 33.1% above the break in 2023. He was a threat the year before at 36.7%. In 2023, only Lebron, Max Strus and Kyle Kuzma shot WORSE above the break on 5+ 3PA/g from above the break, for what it's worth.

He has previously been a threat from there, but he was horrifically bad last year.

Come on you know what the poster meant. A priori fred was a the above the break thrwat coming into last year. That's how the offense was run and that was based on freds previous ability to be effective from there. Hindsight is 20/20 and fred was one of a few raptors who underachieved last year.

Right. Whether he hit it or not he was still the main , arguably only, THREAT from above the break. Him not shooting great from there doesn't change the fact. Still created spacing due to the threat of his shot.

Im personally not the most devastated to see him go ( upset to see him go for nothing though yes) but come on, everyone knew what he meant by only threat from above the break.

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[Duffman100]

Adding on, Scottie's numbers were drastically better with Fred on the floor than when Fred wasn't on the floor.

But maybe the whole narrative of Scottie being depressed due to the **** offensive system is true.

Either way, I'm sort of sick making excuses for players. Whoever shows up and plays well, plays well. You can't hold true talent back. Hoping for a massive bounce back from Scottie, first preseason game he looked legit.

This is exactly it. A guy who is determined to be great can be defeated by no obstacle. Good point and one I've made before about Scottie.

Yeah, I get sick of the "holding back his development" narrative. Challenges and tough times are learning experiences that force development, as long as the individual is up to the challenge. Who's to say Scottie isn't a better player this year because of the the difficulties last year? FVV may have hindered Scottie's performance last year, but development doesn't really work like that (as long as you're getting on the court, getting decent usage, etc).

I thought we learned lessons with past prospects that didn't deliver.

The good ones (Bosh, Derozan etc) rise up and play well regardless of the situation they're in.
The countless others did not.

I believe Barnes is a good one. Hell I've been obnoxious about it on the General Board. But hell if I'm making excuses for his development. If he gets randomly injured like OG? Maybe. But not just circumstance stuff.

[tsherkin]

Come on you know what the poster meant. A priori fred was a the above the break thrwat coming into last year. That's how the offense was run and that was based on freds previous ability to be effective from there. Hindsight is 20/20 and fred was one of a few raptors who underachieved last year.

I do know what he meant. And in 2022, I'd have agreed with him. But last year, all year, FVV shot like trash. Shy of March and October, he was basically useless from 3. In the other months, he shot 32.8% from 3 in general. Defenses adjust; if you're that trash all year long, they don't defend you the same way.

FVV was very much not the only Raptor who performed poorly last season, unquestionably. I have ranted about this elsewhere, and surely am not alone in that. But lack of adaptation on our part was indeed a huge problem last season (that has been discussed endlessly WRT Nurse, so I needn't rehash).

In Fred's defense, it was a notable down year for him and it wasn't a major up-tick in usage or change in role, either, so it was a little weird, but it did last all season. But Badonkadonk's point is somewhat nullfied, right? He's trying to defend FVV as if he had value for us last season, describing him as the only threat above the break.

This, of course, is violently inaccurate. Trent took 5.5 3PA/g above the break and shot 38.5%. OTHER than that, the team average was around what Fred shot, or worse. So in practice, FVV didn't differentiate himself from the rest of the squad above the break and it was actually GTJ who was the only threat above the break on the balance of last season, which is what was being discussed.

Yes, coming INTO the season, Fred had been a threat for a long time, but that's sort of irrelevant when we're specifically discussing what did happen, and it was a trend easily noticeable mid-season by scouting departments. The idea of what he had been before but wasn't now is somewhat immaterial. He doesn't get a pass for sucking that hard. He certainly wasn't ALONE in that, but my post didn't suggest that he was.

[ItsDanger]

But he wasn't, though, that's the thing.

He shot 33.1% above the break in 2023. He was a threat the year before at 36.7%. In 2023, only Lebron, Max Strus and Kyle Kuzma shot WORSE above the break on 5+ 3PA/g from above the break, for what it's worth.

He has previously been a threat from there, but he was horrifically bad last year.

Come on you know what the poster meant. A priori fred was a the above the break thrwat coming into last year. That's how the offense was run and that was based on freds previous ability to be effective from there. Hindsight is 20/20 and fred was one of a few raptors who underachieved last year.

Right. Whether he hit it or not he was still the main , arguably only, THREAT from above the break. Him not shooting great from there doesn't change the fact. Still created spacing due to the threat of his shot.

Im personally not the most devastated to see him go ( upset to see him go for nothing though yes) but come on, everyone knew what he meant by only threat from above the break.

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Gary Trent was a much better above the break 3 pt shooter than Fred. If anything Fred, should have been 4th or 5th option off ball in the corner.

[tsherkin]

Gary Trent was a much better above the break 3 pt shooter than Fred. If anything Fred, should have been 4th or 5th option off ball in the corner.

Considerably better. But FVV was one of the few guys who could initiate the offense effectively. And I'm sure the history of his shooting helped convince Nurse that he'd shoot his way out of the slump or somesuch, that it was necessary to keep him in that role.

[sbsat]

Come on you know what the poster meant. A priori fred was a the above the break thrwat coming into last year. That's how the offense was run and that was based on freds previous ability to be effective from there. Hindsight is 20/20 and fred was one of a few raptors who underachieved last year.

I do know what he meant. And in 2022, I'd have agreed with him. But last year, all year, FVV shot like trash. Shy of March and October, he was basically useless from 3. In the other months, he shot 32.8% from 3 in general. Defenses adjust; if you're that trash all year long, they don't defend you the same way.

FVV was very much not the only Raptor who performed poorly last season, unquestionably. I have ranted about this elsewhere, and surely am not alone in that. But lack of adaptation on our part was indeed a huge problem last season (that has been discussed endlessly WRT Nurse, so I needn't rehash).

In Fred's defense, it was a notable down year for him and it wasn't a major up-tick in usage or change in role, either, so it was a little weird, but it did last all season. But Badonkadonk's point is somewhat nullfied, right? He's trying to defend FVV as if he had value for us last season, describing him as the only threat above the break.

This, of course, is violently inaccurate. Trent took 5.5 3PA/g above the break and shot 38.5%. OTHER than that, the team average was around what Fred shot, or worse. So in practice, FVV didn't differentiate himself from the rest of the squad above the break and it was actually GTJ who was the only threat above the break on the balance of last season, which is what was being discussed.

Yes, coming INTO the season, Fred had been a threat for a long time, but that's sort of irrelevant when we're specifically discussing what did happen, and it was a trend easily noticeable mid-season by scouting departments. The idea of what he had been before but wasn't now is somewhat immaterial. He doesn't get a pass for sucking that hard. He certainly wasn't ALONE in that, but my post didn't suggest that he was.

Well coaches (rightfully) should base strategic decisions on longer term empirical evidence rather than what is happening in real time (unless there are impairments like injuries, personnel etc etc). It was reasonable to assume fvv would break out of his slump he just never did. Yes perhaps nurse should pivoted but i cant really blame him for assuming fred would revert to the mean. They therefore continued to rely on him in that role basically out of necessity.

[DatHomieYouHaTe]

Adding on, Scottie's numbers were drastically better with Fred on the floor than when Fred wasn't on the floor.

But maybe the whole narrative of Scottie being depressed due to the **** offensive system is true.

Either way, I'm sort of sick making excuses for players. Whoever shows up and plays well, plays well. You can't hold true talent back. Hoping for a massive bounce back from Scottie, first preseason game he looked legit.

This is exactly it. A guy who is determined to be great can be defeated by no obstacle. Good point and one I've made before about Scottie.

Yeah, I get sick of the "holding back his development" narrative. Challenges and tough times are learning experiences that force development, as long as the individual is up to the challenge. Who's to say Scottie isn't a better player this year because of the the difficulties last year? FVV may have hindered Scottie's performance last year, but development doesn't really work like that (as long as you're getting on the court, getting decent usage, etc).

He was holding him back though.. Tossing up bricks and not letting him get reps running the team.. That's why everyone hated the guy he was trying to get the bag and not playing team ball even Masai said it.. It's not excuses it's just FACTS. Nick Nurse let it happen and there's not much anyone could do about it other than trade him which they should have done for a bag of chips and pop.

[PoundTown]

One of Scottie's biggest issues has always been maintaining his aggression throughout entire games. How many times last years did we see him completely take over the 4th Q and put up like 12/5/5 in the last 6 minutes of the game after being completely invisible for most of it. He's so strong and solid around the rim that just being aggressive will get him a bunch of points in the paint off rebounds, put backs and free throws because most NBA players can't body up with him, especially when teams have a wing on him. He could put up something like 20 / 8 / 6 without much of a jumper if he just played at a high pace all game. A consistent jumper would take him to a whole other level.

You’re absolutely right. He needs to watch Giannis play and realize the main reason Giannis is great is his absolute relentlessness powering his way to the hoop all game long and his never wavering motor in every aspect of the game. He is still a sub par shooter as a top 2 player in the league. Scottie has similar physical tools that will allow him to do similar things as Giannis if he can show the will to bulldoze people at least 10 times a game.

Pounding his way to the hoop all game long would have been more fitting

My new schtick will be using pound as frequently as possible lol.

[DemHeavyHands]

Rep Freddy V til they bury me!

[Basketball_Jones]

One growing pain we saw last season, and perhaps was what led to his efficiency drop in the paint, was getting fouled and not playing through it. He'd throw up his hands a little too much after no calls and missing easy shots. Someone made the Giannis point as to why he's so effective, and I think he needs to adopt that type of drive and determination in the paint. Just assume he's not going to get the calls unless he plays like a battering ram.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Gary Trent was a much better above the break 3 pt shooter than Fred. If anything Fred, should have been 4th or 5th option off ball in the corner.

Considerably better. But FVV was one of the few guys who could initiate the offense effectively. And I'm sure the history of his shooting helped convince Nurse that he'd shoot his way out of the slump or somesuch, that it was necessary to keep him in that role.

Yeah, you have it right. Gary's % was higher but he's less of a threat to improve the offense because defenses are at an advantage by making him pass off or put it on the floor above the break. Fred's low %s don't mean the defense adjusts enough to completely concede that shot. For the same reason Jayson Tatum drove a significant chunk of offense despite just as weak numbers as Fred from those spots. At one point people were calling last year's Celtics the best offense of all time. Teams will just see the guys that can hurt them the most and put the bulk of their attention on them to try and prevent them from going off.

[will]

You’re absolutely right. He needs to watch Giannis play and realize the main reason Giannis is great is his absolute relentlessness powering his way to the hoop all game long and his never wavering motor in every aspect of the game. He is still a sub par shooter as a top 2 player in the league. Scottie has similar physical tools that will allow him to do similar things as Giannis if he can show the will to bulldoze people at least 10 times a game.

Pounding his way to the hoop all game long would have been more fitting

My new schtick will be using pound as frequently as possible lol.

I for one will greatly be amused by the frequent use of pound

Pretty sure others will appreciate it as well.