SoTD: Bargnani's defensive breakdown (updated)

[Skeebs]

I'm Israeli.
Lived in Israel for 6/7 years, moved to England for a couple of years and have lived in Toronto for the past 10 years.

Next time you say anything positive about Omar Cassipi I am going to go LionelMessi on you.

btw thanks for your life story, but I dont really care and it doesnt make what you said earlier any less offensive.

[Lionel Messi]

Stop posting Lionel. You're so god damn annyoying. Same thing with you Skeebs literring this thread with crap.

Sorry. I'll admit I am being annoying, but you don't have to read it either. Although the thread has been derailed and that's in part my fault.
I'll stop and we can go back to the original topic.

[Skeebs]

Yeah, I can see where Bosh who averaged a double/double this year and made the All-Star team doesn't deserve as much as Bargs -

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here. Are you implying that someone is saying Bosh deserves less money than Bargs?

[Lionel Messi]

I'm Israeli.
Lived in Israel for 6/7 years, moved to England for a couple of years and have lived in Toronto for the past 10 years.

Next time you say anything positive about Omar Cassipi I am going to go LionelMessi on you.

btw thanks for your life story, but I dont really care and it doesnt make what you said earlier any less offensive.

The thing is, when I talk about the Kings, I don't downgrade Tyreke Evans to hype up Omri Casspi. I don't downgrade Donte Greene, Andres Nocioni, or Ime Udoka is they get more minutes than Casspi just because I'm a big fan of his.

EDIT: I'm a huge Manu Ginobili fan as well, but you don't see me bashing Roger Mason, Keith Bogans or Richard Jefferson just to prove how good Manu is.

[kyphi]

Yeah, I can see where Bosh who averaged a double/double this year and made the All-Star team doesn't deserve as much as Bargs -

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here. Are you implying that someone is saying Bosh deserves less money than Bargs?

Hardly, I mean inspite of his teammates, Bosh has managed to achieve this. He's right - he needs more talent surrounding him. Bargs is not that player. Bargs shoots outside shots well and doesn't defend all that well - Bosh needs to be paired with a "superstar", so to speak. I'm not hating on Bargs - wish him well on another team's different system.

[Skeebs]

I'm Israeli.
Lived in Israel for 6/7 years, moved to England for a couple of years and have lived in Toronto for the past 10 years.

Next time you say anything positive about Omar Cassipi I am going to go LionelMessi on you.

btw thanks for your life story, but I dont really care and it doesnt make what you said earlier any less offensive.

The thing is, when I talk about the Kings, I don't downgrade Tyreke Evans to hype up Omri Casspi. I don't downgrade Donte Greene, Andres Nocioni, or Ime Udoka is they get more minutes than Casspi just because I'm a big fan of his.

Dude I think you have an issue with race or racism in general. Just because I like one white player doesnt mean I cant criticize one black player. You keep playing the race card for some reason. Maybe its cause you're....hmmm wont go there but you see how ignorant that would be of me to say.

Reflect on that.

[Crazy-Canuck]

Anyone else suprised to see how bad Okafor was rated?

Wasnt he considered the anti-Bargs for a lot of people on the board.

IMO, Every C would lose consistently (not every time) when covering a pg on the perimeter.

All our BIGS get exposed when they switch with Jose's plan. Our schemes hurt us as much as our individual players. Our Bigs switch off way too much, especially Bargs.

Our D improves by 25% (just a guess) if Jose is replaced by Banks and we have a better scheme to play to our strengths.

Its much easier to replace Jose than Bargs on our team.

I hate Okafor. I always said he was overrated.
I would never trade Bargnani for this overpaid, overrrated drama queen.

Neither do I, but a majority of the people on this board want will take 95% of the pf's or C's in the NBA ahead of Bargs.

[Lionel Messi]

Next time you say anything positive about Omar Cassipi I am going to go LionelMessi on you.

btw thanks for your life story, but I dont really care and it doesnt make what you said earlier any less offensive.

The thing is, when I talk about the Kings, I don't downgrade Tyreke Evans to hype up Omri Casspi. I don't downgrade Donte Greene, Andres Nocioni, or Ime Udoka is they get more minutes than Casspi just because I'm a big fan of his.

Dude I think you have an issue with race or racism in general. Just because I like one white player doesnt mean I cant criticize one black player. You keep playing the race card for some reason. Maybe its cause you're....hmmm wont go there but you see how ignorant that would be of me to say.

Reflect on that.

What's to reflect on? I'm not saying you're racist. If our best player was a white non-European version of Bosh I'm sure you'd bash him just as much.

EDIT:
LEt's steer away from the "racism" part of this conversation. I'm quite comfortable with myself and I know I'm not racist. I also did not accuse anyone of being racist.

I explained why I brought up the "european" issue, it had nothing to do with race. It was simply stating that there is a certain group of European posters (NOT ALL OF THEM) that are Bargnani fans and not Raptors fans and I have an issue with them.
Not because they are European, but because they will start debates about other players in order to avoid any blame going on Bargnani, or they will deflect blame from Bargnani onto the other players.

[Skeebs]

If you were to read you'd see that I indeed did reply to you right on top of this page.

Yeah I missed that, my mistake. If you dont think bargs improved then ya our conversation is done'ski.

He definitely did not improve his low post this season. He definitely did not improve his cardio (he DEFINITELY did not play the most minutes on the team I bet) and he most definitely did not improve his strength and man defence. Nope we're watching different players I think.

[Skeebs]

This lionel kid is a (Please Use More Appropriate Word).

edit: im not saying your racist im just saying that you defend euro players blindly and hate non euro players just as blindly

dude im not saying your sisters a slut im just saying she likes to have lots of sex with random people. stop putting words in my mouth!

Almost goes without saying that these sorts of personal attacks are not tolerated. Public warning.

[Black Milk]

If you were to read you'd see that I indeed did reply to you right on top of this page.

Yeah I missed that, my mistake. If you dont think bargs improved then ya our conversation is done'ski.

He definitely did not improve his low post this season. He definitely did not improve his cardio (he DEFINITELY did not play the most minutes on the team I bet) and he most definitely did not improve his strength and man defence. Nope we're watching different players I think.

I didn't say he didn't improve. I was questioning how you can say he did and then Bosh didn't. Oh but I forgot, blind hatred and fanboyism, yes that explains it.

[Lionel Messi]

This lionel kid is a (Please Use More Appropriate Word).

edit: im not saying your racist im just saying that you defend euro players blindly and hate non euro players just as blindly

dude im not saying your sisters a slut im just saying she likes to have lots of sex with random people. stop putting words in my mouth!

I'm done. If you don't understand me then I can't be at fault for that. You need to understand what I posted before you can attack me btw.

[Undefeated]

I, like many others, have grown tired of these people, because they are quite clearly more Bargnani fans than Raptor fans.

Actually, a fair amount of the criticism that Bargnani receives is unwarranted. Does Bargnani have flaws? Of course Bargnani does, but does anyone ever mentioned the things that Bargnani does well on the floor? No!

Bargnani is rebounding poorly? Bosh is STEALING them because he's a stat-whore.

Bargnani's rebounding is poor without question, but you have to credit Bargnani with his ability to box-out to clear the lane so that his teammates can crash for those rebounds. You look at Bargnani on the floor, the Raptors aren't getting outrebounding by that much despite Bargnani being a poor rebounder.

Bargnani didn't get enough touches? Jose hates him! He NEVER passes to him.

Bargnani does get touches, but how many of those touches results in easy baskets and not forced shots down in late situations? And how often is Bargnani left off the offense entering the second half when he has shown he has had a good shooting night or can expose the mismatches much more. These are the things that Raptors CAN do to score easier instead of giving Bargnani "touches" when those "touches" aren't easily scored.

Bargnani doesn't get Iso plays run for him all the time? Triano is a moron, Bargnani is an awesome scorer but Bosh is stealing all his shots on the elbow.

I don’t know, but it doesn’t hurt to run isolation plays for your second option to let him feel the game better. Look at when Bosh was out, the offense was heavily disorganized due to the offense having no pecking order hence turnovers raised. This shouldn’t or wouldn’t have been a problem when the Raptors incorporate Bargnani more into the offense so that the offense can continue to flow smoothly even when Bosh is sidelined.

Almost every other team runs their second option plays through the game, but Bargnani? Once a week or even months.

[Skeebs]

This lionel kid is a (Please Use More Appropriate Word).

edit: im not saying your racist im just saying that you defend euro players blindly and hate non euro players just as blindly

dude im not saying your sisters a slut im just saying she likes to have lots of sex with random people. stop putting words in my mouth!

I'm done. If you don't understand me then I can't be at fault for that. You need to understand what I posted before you can attack me btw.

I understand you, just replace the word 'european' with the word 'black(or jew)' and go reread your last 10 posts.

I dont think you are aware of what you are saying, or you just dont want to acknowledge your latent racist tendencies.

[Skeebs]

Undefeated you forgot about the joke where people think the raps have been coddling andrea. Thats another good one.

[Lionel Messi]

I, like many others, have grown tired of these people, because they are quite clearly more Bargnani fans than Raptor fans.

Actually, a fair amount of the critisim that Bargnani recieves is unwarranted. Does Bargnani have flaws? Of course Bargnani does, but does anyone ever mentioned the things that Bargnani does well on the floor? No!

Bargnani is rebounding poorly? Bosh is STEALING them because he's a stat-whore.

Bargnani's rebounding is poor without question, but you have to credit Bargnani with his ability to box-out to clear the lane so that his teammates can crash for those rebounds. You look at Bargnani on the floor, the Raptors aren't getting outrebounding by that much despite Bargnani being a poor rebounder.

Bargnani didn't get enough touches? Jose hates him! He NEVER passes to him.

Bargnani does get touches, but how many of those touches results in easy baskets and not forced shots down in late situations? And how often is Bargnani left off the offense entering the second half when he has shown he has had a good shooting night or can expose the mismatches much more. These are the things that Raptors CAN do to score easier instead of giving Bargnani "touches" when those "touches" aren't easily scored.

Bargnani doesn't get Iso plays run for him all the time? Triano is a moron, Bargnani is an awesome scorer but Bosh is stealing all his shots on the elbow.

I don’t know, but it doesn’t hurt to run isolation plays for your second option to let him feel the game better. Look at when Bosh was out, the offense was heavily disorganized due to the offense having no pecking order hence turnovers raised. This shouldn’t or wouldn’t have been a problem when the Raptors incorporate Bargnani more into the offense so that the offense can continue to flow smoothly even when Bosh is sidelined.

Almost every other team runs their second option plays through the game, but Bargnani? Once a week or even months.

Undefeated, I wasn't saying all those accusations are accurate. They were examples.

I agree, we did not define Bargnani's role as a legitimate Iso scorer until it was too late and he clearly had a hard time adjusting as well.
When Bosh went out, it was a free for all, but Bargnani definitely should have been given Iso's and priority in the offence.

[Lionel Messi]

This lionel kid is a (Please Use More Appropriate Word).

edit: im not saying your racist im just saying that you defend euro players blindly and hate non euro players just as blindly

dude im not saying your sisters a slut im just saying she likes to have lots of sex with random people. stop putting words in my mouth!

I'm done. If you don't understand me then I can't be at fault for that. You need to understand what I posted before you can attack me btw.

I understand you, just replace the word 'european' with the word 'black(or jew)' and go reread your last 10 posts.

I dont think you are aware of what you are saying, or you just dont want to acknowledge your latent racist tendencies.

This is my point. What's so hard to understand. Here, I'll take out the word "European", since you seem to be offended that I assume that the posters I'm referring to are European.

It was simply stating that there is a certain group of posters (not every poster) that are Bargnani fans and not Raptors fans and I have an issue with them.
Not because they like bargnani, but because they will start debates about other players in order to avoid any blame going on Bargnani, or they will deflect blame from Bargnani onto the other players.

Happy? That's my point. The only thing wrong with it is that I made the assumption that these posters that defend Bargnani and attack anyone else before they criticize him are European.

[Skeebs]

What bargnani fan do you know that doesnt criticize Andrea. You would be hard pressed to find anyone that will say he doesnt have a long way to go in help D and rebounding (both things BARGS HIMSELF has been saying). Those are just strawman tactics. "all these 'people' never criticize bargs but ALWAYS criticize Bosh" Its simply not true, we are just being level headed. We see the potential and realize its still that, potential. But he is getting better, has a good attitude, loves the city, is a tough player, is young, and plays a new position for him that takes life long centres a long time to learn anyways.

My point has always been that Bosh is a good player, but not a MAX player. Not even a franchise player. We had him there by default so star starved after vince left that we needed anyone to make us respectable again. We had the 4th pick CB putting up 20/9 on a mediocre team. Thats how bad contracts happen. He rebounds a lot on a terrible rebounding team and stifles the offence in order to get his game on.

I think he would be a great addition to have to this team, for 15 million tops. But I'm not spending 22 million on him, 7 million we could play with that could get us a lot. Sorry if you think im European because I dont think Bosh is worth the MAX and that Bargs is locked up for 5 years at a very reasonable contract and is still improving.

[Skeebs]

oh wow, just saw your 'location' LMAO

[jrsmith]

No. I clearly explained that I wasn't generalizing anyone.

You are implying that his opinion shouldn't be taken seriously because he's European, and all Europeans are incapable of rational thought when it comes to basketball because simply because his opinion differs from yours and you lack any tangible rebuttal.

In short, you are being ridiculous and very offensive at the same time.

I'm going to repeat what I said:

I'm not saying every Euro Raps fan is like this, but if a guy comes on and starts defending Bargnani non-stop and attacking/degrading Bosh non-stop, their opinion can't be taken seriously.
Not because Bosh is a God and Bargnani sucks, but because they are clearly trying to downgrade Bosh in order to make Bargnani seem better.

I'm sure there are many European Raptors fans that don't do this. I'm aiming at the European player fans, who likely don't care about the Raps other than whatever impact it has on Bargnani's perception and his game.

Im european myself and I know afew euros in real life that actually do defend bargnani because of his origin while also putting him ahead of bosh because of his origin.

There is nothing wrong with it, some people follow basketball because of a player, some because of a team. In this case its extremely easy to recognize such people even on an internet forum.

Because to someone with a clear non biased basketball mind there is absolutely no comparison with bosh and bargnani, and its laughable to even suggest such a thing. Bargnanis biggest supporter in Colangelo even said that Bargs at his best will never replace bosh.

Again nothing wrong with blindly supporting a player, especially someone with the same origin as you. After all, isnt that what we all do in the Olympics.

Whats a tad ridiculous is when such people become zombies with a clear personal agenda, and try to prove something which clearly doesnt exist, and sadly never will.