The too early Suggs vs. Barnes thread

[ItsDanger]

Barnes' offense will take about 2 seasons. Suggs will have a more immediate impact. People are going to be disappointed in the near term if they act like this after 2 SL games. Barnes is still raw but the potential is definitely there. The real value in him is going to be on the defensive side in combination with the rest of our players. If we hold opponents to around 40% or lower consistently, we can win even with a bad offense. Thats the direction they're going because getting that elite offensive players has been deemed too difficult perhaps.

[Pointgod]

It's obviously too early to make a definitive statement on Suggs VS Barnes, but it's safe to say that this idea that Suggs has a low ceiling was absolutely bogus. I have no idea how this narrative even got started. He should absolutely be in the same class as the top 3, that he fell out of that group and slipped to 5 is crazy.

Usually a prospect like Suggs slips because he is older than the rest of his class or went to a non power school (Lillard or Steph), but that doesn't apply to him at all. No, I'm not saying he will be Lillard or Steph, but I mean his floor is what, an above average starter?

It started right around the time we drafted Barnes lol. I remember people posting reputable mocks and big boards that said Suggs was the second best player in the draft. All I’m asking for is consistency. If you believe he should have been the pick before the draft then he should still be after it.

[Tor_Raps]

It's obviously too early to make a definitive statement on Suggs VS Barnes, but it's safe to say that this idea that Suggs has a low ceiling was absolutely bogus. I have no idea how this narrative even got started. He should absolutely be in the same class as the top 3, that he fell out of that group and slipped to 5 is crazy.

Usually a prospect like Suggs slips because he is older than the rest of his class or went to a non power school (Lillard or Steph), but that doesn't apply to him at all. No, I'm not saying he will be Lillard or Steph, but I mean his floor is what, an above average starter?

It started right around the time we drafted Barnes lol. I remember people posting reputable mocks and big boards that said Suggs was the second best player in the draft. All I’m asking for is consistency. If you believe he should have been the pick before the draft then he should still be after it.

You're not gonna get that man, majority of the people here just follow blindly what Masai does. Now I'm not saying that's a bad thing since the man is great at his job but don't bother offering up an opinion then lol.

[Pooh_Jeter]

It's obviously too early to make a definitive statement on Suggs VS Barnes, but it's safe to say that this idea that Suggs has a low ceiling was absolutely bogus. I have no idea how this narrative even got started. He should absolutely be in the same class as the top 3, that he fell out of that group and slipped to 5 is crazy.

Usually a prospect like Suggs slips because he is older than the rest of his class or went to a non power school (Lillard or Steph), but that doesn't apply to him at all. No, I'm not saying he will be Lillard or Steph, but I mean his floor is what, an above average starter?

It started right around the time we drafted Barnes lol. I remember people posting reputable mocks and big boards that said Suggs was the second best player in the draft. All I’m asking for is consistency. If you believe he should have been the pick before the draft then he should still be after it.

You're not gonna get that man, majority of the people here just follow blindly what Masai does. Now I'm not saying that's a bad thing since the man is great at his job but don't bother offering up an opinion then lol.

Yup, and it happens to everyone. After Norm got traded suddenly he wasn't very good and playing over his head. Ibaka and Gasol weren't that important/washed. Kawhi was good, but he had more help than people realized. Even with Lowry I see plenty of people denying the impact he had on this team right after they were saying he was basically CP3 and would have brought 6 or 7 different teams to the Finals.

[Tor_Raps]

It started right around the time we drafted Barnes lol. I remember people posting reputable mocks and big boards that said Suggs was the second best player in the draft. All I’m asking for is consistency. If you believe he should have been the pick before the draft then he should still be after it.

You're not gonna get that man, majority of the people here just follow blindly what Masai does. Now I'm not saying that's a bad thing since the man is great at his job but don't bother offering up an opinion then lol.

Yup, and it happens to everyone. After Norm got traded suddenly he wasn't very good and playing over his head. Ibaka and Gasol weren't that important/washed. Kawhi was good, but he had more help than people realized. Even with Lowry I see plenty of people denying the impact he had on this team right after they were saying he was basically CP3 and would have brought 6 or 7 different teams to the Finals.

Trust me, 2 faced people like this piss me off more than anything else in the world lol.

[Steelo Green]

The narrative shifting always then becomes “Masai is a genius and you’re in your moms basement, fool” as if those who are lifetime basketball watchers have no idea what’s going on.

I remember once a good poster who was banned called Bruno Araujo 2.0 and people said he was an idiot. He was right but no one discusses that.

[Raps in 4]

It started right around the time we drafted Barnes lol. I remember people posting reputable mocks and big boards that said Suggs was the second best player in the draft. All I’m asking for is consistency. If you believe he should have been the pick before the draft then he should still be after it.

You're not gonna get that man, majority of the people here just follow blindly what Masai does. Now I'm not saying that's a bad thing since the man is great at his job but don't bother offering up an opinion then lol.

Yup, and it happens to everyone. After Norm got traded suddenly he wasn't very good and playing over his head. Ibaka and Gasol weren't that important/washed. Kawhi was good, but he had more help than people realized. Even with Lowry I see plenty of people denying the impact he had on this team right after they were saying he was basically CP3 and would have brought 6 or 7 different teams to the Finals.

That's the most accurate summary of this board I've ever seen.

[Mehar]

It's obviously too early to make a definitive statement on Suggs VS Barnes, but it's safe to say that this idea that Suggs has a low ceiling was absolutely bogus. I have no idea how this narrative even got started. He should absolutely be in the same class as the top 3, that he fell out of that group and slipped to 5 is crazy.

Usually a prospect like Suggs slips because he is older than the rest of his class or went to a non power school (Lillard or Steph), but that doesn't apply to him at all. No, I'm not saying he will be Lillard or Steph, but I mean his floor is what, an above average starter?

What is even more comical than this bogus idea that Suggs has low ceiling, are the couple of posters who were telling me before the draft, that since we have FVV and Flynn, we were set at point guard. So, Suggs was not needed in their eyes (LOL). Suggs is 6 foot 5 in shoes, so could have played alongside FVV in the backcourt. Flynn is 4 inches shorter, and would be really undersized at the 2. One poster was telling me that the organization promised Flynn's dad, and that Flynn will be eventually the starter for years to come, so Barnes addressed a different need (LOL). I actually wanted Flynn traded before the draft, along with Boucher, so the Raptors could have gotten another mid to late first rounder.

Yesterday was one Summer League game, but I do not get the Flynn hype from some of the posters. He is a 6 foot 1 inch Shooting Guard in my eyes. If we had drafted Suggs, he would been the true PG of the next decade, and not Flynn. I do not understand where this narrative of "low ceiling" Suggs started. If he was playing and developing in Toronto, and not the scrubs in Orlando, he would have been dynamic here for years to come. I just hope Barnes gets more opportunities at the PG position. We drafted him, and now have to live with him.

[Jadoogar]

It started right around the time we drafted Barnes lol. I remember people posting reputable mocks and big boards that said Suggs was the second best player in the draft. All I’m asking for is consistency. If you believe he should have been the pick before the draft then he should still be after it.

You're not gonna get that man, majority of the people here just follow blindly what Masai does. Now I'm not saying that's a bad thing since the man is great at his job but don't bother offering up an opinion then lol.

Yup, and it happens to everyone. After Norm got traded suddenly he wasn't very good and playing over his head. Ibaka and Gasol weren't that important/washed. Kawhi was good, but he had more help than people realized. Even with Lowry I see plenty of people denying the impact he had on this team right after they were saying he was basically CP3 and would have brought 6 or 7 different teams to the Finals.

Yup. It's one thing to root for Barnes because he's on our team now but i don't get tearing down Suggs when 90% of the board wanted him in the first place.

[Raps in 4]

It's obviously too early to make a definitive statement on Suggs VS Barnes, but it's safe to say that this idea that Suggs has a low ceiling was absolutely bogus. I have no idea how this narrative even got started. He should absolutely be in the same class as the top 3, that he fell out of that group and slipped to 5 is crazy.

Usually a prospect like Suggs slips because he is older than the rest of his class or went to a non power school (Lillard or Steph), but that doesn't apply to him at all. No, I'm not saying he will be Lillard or Steph, but I mean his floor is what, an above average starter?

What is even more comical than this bogus idea that Suggs has low ceiling, are the couple of posters who were telling me before the draft, that since we have FVV and Flynn, we were set at point guard. So, Suggs was not needed in their eyes (LOL). Suggs is 6 foot 5 in shoes, so could have played alongside FVV in the backcourt. Flynn is 4 inches shorter, and would be really undersized at the 2. One poster was telling me that the organization promised Flynn's dad, and that Flynn will be eventually the starter for years to come, so Barnes addressed a different need (LOL). I actually wanted Flynn traded before the draft, along with Boucher, so the Raptors could have gotten another mid to late first rounder.

Yesterday was one Summer League game, but I do not get the Flynn hype from some of the posters. He is a 6 foot 1 inch Shooting Guard in my eyes. If we had drafted Suggs, he would been the true PG of the next decade, and not Flynn. I do not understand where this narrative of "low ceiling" Suggs started. If he was playing and developing in Toronto, and not the scrubs in Orlando, he would have been dynamic here for years to come. I just hope Barnes gets more opportunities at the PG position. We drafted him, and now have to live with him.

In the pre-draft poll, 7% of posters wanted Barnes vs. 40% wanting Suggs (51% wanted Mobley). Now all of a sudden Suggs is a bust and Barnes is the next Magic Johnson lol. The amount of coping people have been doing since the draft is insane.

[Mehar]

You're not gonna get that man, majority of the people here just follow blindly what Masai does. Now I'm not saying that's a bad thing since the man is great at his job but don't bother offering up an opinion then lol.

Yup, and it happens to everyone. After Norm got traded suddenly he wasn't very good and playing over his head. Ibaka and Gasol weren't that important/washed. Kawhi was good, but he had more help than people realized. Even with Lowry I see plenty of people denying the impact he had on this team right after they were saying he was basically CP3 and would have brought 6 or 7 different teams to the Finals.

Yup. It's one thing to root for Barnes because he's on our team now but i don't get tearing down Suggs when 90% of the board wanted him in the first place.

I wanted Suggs here since January on this forum. I was pleading for this organization to "tank" and at least get the 4th pick. I thought it would have been difficult to finish in the bottom 3, given how bad the other teams were. Our odds for 4, were slightly better. I was ecstatic when we jumped up from 7 to 4. I was 100% convinced Suggs was going to be the guy we pick at 4. When Barnes was picked instead, I was a bit angry and disappointed, but I moved on. Wish Suggs nothing but the best in his career.

What I do not get are these clowns on this forum calling themselves Raptor fans, wishing nothing but the worst for Suggs. It was not his fault the Raptors passed on him. They are trashing his game and personality on Twitter, and on this forum (LOL). The Orlando Magic fans are not trashing Barnes the same way. 90% of the board wanted Suggs. Now he is in Orlando, the same fans are saying he will not amount to anything (LOL). How about we concentrate on Scottie Barnes, and wish Suggs all the best in Orlando. How about focusing all your energy to being positive, and wishing Suggs a great career. Do not be surprised when it is all said and done, he indeed does have a better career, and turns out to be a better player than Barnes.

[ItsDanger]

With this pick, Raps need to commit 100% to defense. This is their ideal scenario from '04 Pistons:



With the 3 forwards plus the other guys who are switchable/mobile, an elite defense is possible. Key will be reducing opponents 3 pt %. Back then Detroit's offense was middle of the pack. Can this overcome mediocre offense? We'll see. Bright side is during this experiment we may likely end up picking #8-#12 anyways. Next year's draft has more offensive upside talent.

[WaltFrazier]

You're not gonna get that man, majority of the people here just follow blindly what Masai does. Now I'm not saying that's a bad thing since the man is great at his job but don't bother offering up an opinion then lol.

Yup, and it happens to everyone. After Norm got traded suddenly he wasn't very good and playing over his head. Ibaka and Gasol weren't that important/washed. Kawhi was good, but he had more help than people realized. Even with Lowry I see plenty of people denying the impact he had on this team right after they were saying he was basically CP3 and would have brought 6 or 7 different teams to the Finals.

Yup. It's one thing to root for Barnes because he's on our team now but i don't get tearing down Suggs when 90% of the board wanted him in the first place.

Especially when the tearing down is clearly wrong in the face of his play.

[WaltFrazier]

With this pick, Raps need to commit 100% to defense. This is their ideal scenario from '04 Pistons:



With the 3 forwards plus the other guys who are switchable/mobile, an elite defense is possible. Key will be reducing opponents 3 pt %. Back then Detroit's offense was middle of the pack. Can this overcome mediocre offense? We'll see. Bright side is during this experiment we may likely end up picking #8-#12 anyways. Next year's draft has more offensive upside talent.

We don't have a Billups or a Richard Hamilton offensively. You still have to score too.

[bon]

It's obviously too early to make a definitive statement on Suggs VS Barnes, but it's safe to say that this idea that Suggs has a low ceiling was absolutely bogus. I have no idea how this narrative even got started. He should absolutely be in the same class as the top 3, that he fell out of that group and slipped to 5 is crazy.

Usually a prospect like Suggs slips because he is older than the rest of his class or went to a non power school (Lillard or Steph), but that doesn't apply to him at all. No, I'm not saying he will be Lillard or Steph, but I mean his floor is what, an above average starter?

It started right around the time we drafted Barnes lol. I remember people posting reputable mocks and big boards that said Suggs was the second best player in the draft. All I’m asking for is consistency. If you believe he should have been the pick before the draft then he should still be after it.

It's not some new narrative at all. There were definitely analysts and other people outside of this forum that questioned Suggs' ceiling. The perception of the draft went from top 4 to top 3 in the few weeks leading up to it. I remember this vividly because there were posters who believed it was a conspiracy from the American media to rate Suggs lower than the other top 3 guys just because he was projected to go to Toronto. Lol

As for who the pick "should" be... as if anyone has the answer to this before they've played their first NBA games. I was expecting Suggs pre-draft at #4 but I wasn't under the delusion that he was the ONLY possible option at that spot. Lot of posters became infatuated before the draft and only saw one possibility. One of the top scouting teams in the league with a fantastic track record saw a different possibility and went for it. What the pick "should" be isn't based off how long a RealGMer had an unhealthy fixation on a certain guy.

[normgod6]

Barnes looks like a freak out there on the defensive end (that length ). Kind of reminds me of a more athletic Rodman defensively.

Offensively he needs work but defense wins championships.

I would draft him 10 times out of 10 over Suggs and think he could easily be the best player in this draft hands down.

Having an elite primary scorer wins championships. Only one team in the past 30 years won a championship without one (two if you consider the 2014 Spurs in that category too).

Our team defence was just as good the year after Kawhi left, but we floundered in the playoffs because we lacked a player who can create his own shot.

and what makes you think Suggs could have been that primary scorer. Steph is the only guard in the league that can be the first option of a championship team. Even Dame i doubt can win as the first option because he is too small to get whatever shot he wants in the playoffs. Its nearly impossible to build a championship team around a guard. Even if we picked Suggs, we would have the same problem during the Lowry years hoping to get a wing first option

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[Raps in 4]

Barnes looks like a freak out there on the defensive end (that length ). Kind of reminds me of a more athletic Rodman defensively.

Offensively he needs work but defense wins championships.

I would draft him 10 times out of 10 over Suggs and think he could easily be the best player in this draft hands down.

Having an elite primary scorer wins championships. Only one team in the past 30 years won a championship without one (two if you consider the 2014 Spurs in that category too).

Our team defence was just as good the year after Kawhi left, but we floundered in the playoffs because we lacked a player who can create his own shot.

and what makes you think Suggs could have been that primary scorer. Steph is the only guard in the league that can be the first option of a championship team. Even Dame i doubt can win as the first option because he is too small to get whatever shot he wants in the playoffs. Its nearly impossible to build a championship team around a guard. Even if we picked Suggs, we would have the same problem during the Lowry years hoping to get a wing first option

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A scoring guard still puts you in a better position than having nobody who can score. Trae just took the Hawks to the ECF. Dame has never been surrounded by talent, but consistently leads Portland to the playoffs in a tough west (including a WCF run).

[normgod6]

Having an elite primary scorer wins championships. Only one team in the past 30 years won a championship without one (two if you consider the 2014 Spurs in that category too).

Our team defence was just as good the year after Kawhi left, but we floundered in the playoffs because we lacked a player who can create his own shot.

and what makes you think Suggs could have been that primary scorer. Steph is the only guard in the league that can be the first option of a championship team. Even Dame i doubt can win as the first option because he is too small to get whatever shot he wants in the playoffs. Its nearly impossible to build a championship team around a guard. Even if we picked Suggs, we would have the same problem during the Lowry years hoping to get a wing first option

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A scoring guard still puts you in a better position than having nobody who can score. Trae just took the Hawks to the ECF. Dame has never been surrounded by talent, but consistently leads Portland to the playoffs in a tough west (including a WCF run).

i think scottie has shown enough upside in the 2 games to be optimistic he has a chance of being a 20+ scorer. And more importantly, his scoring will translate better in the playoffs compared to a guard like Suggs. Size matters in basketball, and becomes even more important in the playoffs. Trae has the potential to be a first option due to his transcendental court vision, not his scoring. Suggs never has and never will be a Trae level playmaker. That blazers team was a fake WCF team like the 2016 Raptors. If Suggs ever wants to be a first option of a championship team, he will need to have a truly outlier shooting improvement from average shooter to one of the best in the league, which is incredibly unlikely. All Scottie needs to do is improve from a bad shooter to a decent one, which is much more likely. If he can do that, his size strength and length can carry the rest

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[Raps in 4]

and what makes you think Suggs could have been that primary scorer. Steph is the only guard in the league that can be the first option of a championship team. Even Dame i doubt can win as the first option because he is too small to get whatever shot he wants in the playoffs. Its nearly impossible to build a championship team around a guard. Even if we picked Suggs, we would have the same problem during the Lowry years hoping to get a wing first option

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A scoring guard still puts you in a better position than having nobody who can score. Trae just took the Hawks to the ECF. Dame has never been surrounded by talent, but consistently leads Portland to the playoffs in a tough west (including a WCF run).

i think scottie has shown enough upside in the 2 games to be optimistic he be a chance of being a 20+ scorer. And more importantly, his scoring will translate better in the playoffs compared to a guard like Suggs. Size matters in basketball, and it even becomes more important in the playoffs. Trae has the potential to be a first option due to his transcendental court vision, not his scoring. Suggs never has and never will be a Trae level playmaker. If Suggs ever wants to be a first option of a championship team, he will need to have a truly outlier shooting improvement from average shooter to one of the best in the league, which is incredibly unlikely. All Scottie needs to do is improve from a bad shooter to a decent one, which is much more likely.

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Siakam's efficiency plummets in the playoffs. You need to be a skilled scorer, regardless of size, to enjoy playoff success. Barnes needs to become an elite shooter as well if he is to become a primary scorer (or he needs to improve his post-game to an elite level). And unlike Suggs, he's starting from a much lower skill level. Suggs is much further along in his development (leaving less question marks about his potential).

[normgod6]

A scoring guard still puts you in a better position than having nobody who can score. Trae just took the Hawks to the ECF. Dame has never been surrounded by talent, but consistently leads Portland to the playoffs in a tough west (including a WCF run).

i think scottie has shown enough upside in the 2 games to be optimistic he be a chance of being a 20+ scorer. And more importantly, his scoring will translate better in the playoffs compared to a guard like Suggs. Size matters in basketball, and it even becomes more important in the playoffs. Trae has the potential to be a first option due to his transcendental court vision, not his scoring. Suggs never has and never will be a Trae level playmaker. If Suggs ever wants to be a first option of a championship team, he will need to have a truly outlier shooting improvement from average shooter to one of the best in the league, which is incredibly unlikely. All Scottie needs to do is improve from a bad shooter to a decent one, which is much more likely.

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Siakam's efficiency plummets in the playoffs. You need to be a skilled scorer, regardless of size, to enjoy playoff success.

Obviously skill matters. The Raptors are betting Scottie gets much more skilled in 3 years. The point is even the best guards like Steph Dame Kyrie all have their efficiency decrease in the playoffs. The best wings like LeBron Kawhi KD efficiency increases. If my goal is to get a true first option, I'm putting my money on a jumbo sized wing whos ahead of schedule in handling and playmaking rather than a guard without outlier passing, shooting or athleticism like Suggs

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