Has it not become overwhelmingly clear (even to management) it's time to blow this up?

[will]

He's the definition of shortcoming. Pause. Better not be a long term deal.

A shortcoming of the long bois...NO PAUSE.

There's an article on Yahoo Sports by Oren Weisfeld titled, the 6-9 vision isn't the Raptors problem, shooting is. Something like that. I can't link it now, maybe someone has, or should. Good breakdown of how bad shooting, and the failure to acquire shooters, has sunk our season more than anything else.

6-9 squad full of not so consistent shooters.

A recipe for a tank.

[Young Moosehead]

Why is Pascal so good and the Raptors record this bad?

Why is Luka so ridiculously good and the Mavs record so mid?

Because the rest of the roster sucks - they lost Brunson and also have missed two starters most of the year (they've actually been missing 3 regular players, Finney Smith, Kleber and Josh Green). The Mavs lost all games when Luka didn't play.

The Raptors have better players on paper, that is why the question is asked.

5 reasons off the top of my head:

1) Our roster balance sucks
2) Our bench depth is bad
3) No bench scoring
4) No center
5) We got hurt a lot early, before we got healthy the locker room had got weird and the local media started taking shots.

OG and Pascal are worth more than I think you want to pay. Watch the Locked on Mavs podcast they did recently about targeting Raptors players. They seemed to be annoyed of the idea that they could lose pairing OG with Luka because they don't have 2 good available FRP/appropriate assets. They were also very clear that the cost would be more for Pascal. Pretty constant idea is that you guys don't have enough now to entice us to do a deal, and will probably have to wait for the summer.

Watch on YouTube

[DelAbbot]

Why is Luka so ridiculously good and the Mavs record so mid?

Because the rest of the roster sucks - they lost Brunson and also have missed two starters most of the year (they've actually been missing 3 regular players, Finney Smith, Kleber and Josh Green). The Mavs lost all games when Luka didn't play.

The Raptors have better players on paper, that is why the question is asked.

The reason that proposal won't get it done for Siakam is the Gobert trade set the bar too high. Also Anthony Davis on the Pels led to a middling team but Lakers paid a kings random for AD.

[will]

Why is Luka so ridiculously good and the Mavs record so mid?

Because the rest of the roster sucks - they lost Brunson and also have missed two starters most of the year (they've actually been missing 3 regular players, Finney Smith, Kleber and Josh Green). The Mavs lost all games when Luka didn't play.

The Raptors have better players on paper, that is why the question is asked.

The reason that proposal won't get it done for Siakam is the Gobert trade set the bar too high. Also Anthony Davis on the Pels led to a middling team but Lakers paid a kings random for AD.

The Pelicans really made away like bandits.

Really wish they kept Josh Hart.

[mtcan]

He's the definition of shortcoming. Pause. Better not be a long term deal.

A shortcoming of the long bois...NO PAUSE.

There's an article on Yahoo Sports by Oren Weisfeld titled, the 6-9 vision isn't the Raptors problem, shooting is. Something like that. I can't link it now, maybe someone has, or should. Good breakdown of how bad shooting, and the failure to acquire shooters, has sunk our season more than anything else.

It is overconfidence and arrogance from the front office to the coaching staff, really.

They thought they could bring in a bunch of dudes based solely on their long arms and wingspan and then teach them all to be great shooters, ball handlers, etc...thinking that they they could do for all these guys what Pascal did...and they were wrong.

Scottie can't shoot.
Delano can't shoot.
Precious is OK but not great.
OG is OK but not great.
Koloko can't shoot.

They thought they could have an entire team of Pascals...

[DG88]

Read on Twitter

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[KL78192020]

Read on Twitter

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lol all the media is in on the tank now. Many of us knew this team wasn't it last year, lots of easy wins with opponents missing guys due to covid last year. The record last year was a mirage.

[Los_29]

Read on Twitter

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lol all the media is in on the tank now. Many of us knew this team wasn't it last year, lots of easy wins with opponents missing guys due to covid last year. The record last year was a mirage.

That was the norm throughout the league. Remember our guys had covid too and they missed considerable time with injuries. Far more injuries than the teams ahead of us in the standings. We were a legitimate 48 win team which is why many projected this team to get to that same level this year if not better.

The issue this year was due to a) other teams getting better b) our lack of depth and c) Fred and Scottie struggling mightily for the majority of the season.

[WaltFrazier]

Read on Twitter

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Not a fan of Lewenberg but he touches on the right issues, especially defense and keeping opponents in front.

Interesting, when he said it's not a matter of players not getting along, but that shouldn't matter anyway, he gave the example that there were players on the 2019 title team who "hated each other". Who would that have been?

[Mikistan]

Read on Twitter

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Not a fan of Lewenberg but he touches on the right issues, especially defense and keeping opponents in front.

Interesting, when he said it's not a matter of players not getting along, but that shouldn't matter anyway, he gave the example that there were players on the 2019 title team who "hated each other". Who would that have been?

The only rumor I heard was Fred taking issue with kawhi getting load management. Lowry may have had some issues too but it was always discussed as being with management trading demar?

[WaltFrazier]

Read on Twitter

?t=nf9ub1IeY7p7e8r8VsZqfg&s=19

Not a fan of Lewenberg but he touches on the right issues, especially defense and keeping opponents in front.

Interesting, when he said it's not a matter of players not getting along, but that shouldn't matter anyway, he gave the example that there were players on the 2019 title team who "hated each other". Who would that have been?

The only rumor I heard was Fred taking issue with kawhi getting load management. Lowry may have had some issues too but it was always discussed as being with management trading demar?

Yeah and Delon was upset with playing time? But hard to imagine anyone hated anyone else.

They all looked happy at the parade.

[bonjovi0308]

I think this is definitely a chemistry issue. Siakam needed the management to tell him 'he is the guy' after Lowry left, shows he doesn't have the Alpha mentality (also other incidents including haven't touched a basketball due to Covid etc). He is a good Robin at best.

FVV has the Alpha mentality, but he is probably a ME first over team first in his bones (his character probably always criticizing others), but he doesn't have the elite skills like a Durant or Steve Curry to back up (hence Barnes and GTJ have no respect for him).

With balls being dominated by Siakam and FVV (and GTJ another shooter), OG probably feels he should deserve more shots and plays called for him (whether rightfully or not), especially he has been the one doing the most difficult work on defense.

Then comes Scott Barnes, a 4th overall pick who eventually becoming the ROY. The vets know this will eventually be Barnes's team, but they are still the present tense. The management and the coaching staff, however, probably want to develop Barnes and give him more opportunities, and thus gets the envy from some vets as they think it is unfair as they all need to work hard to get where they are at now (FVV called Barnes the Goldenchild).This probably creates some uneasy atmosphere in the locker room, and might be part of the reason why Barnes always only go super mode in the Q4 because he always defer to the vets.

Winning can solve lots of problems, but as losing keep on piling up..the hell break lose.

[ConSarnit]

A shortcoming of the long bois...NO PAUSE.

There's an article on Yahoo Sports by Oren Weisfeld titled, the 6-9 vision isn't the Raptors problem, shooting is. Something like that. I can't link it now, maybe someone has, or should. Good breakdown of how bad shooting, and the failure to acquire shooters, has sunk our season more than anything else.

It is overconfidence and arrogance from the front office to the coaching staff, really.

They thought they could bring in a bunch of dudes based solely on their long arms and wingspan and then teach them all to be great shooters, ball handlers, etc...thinking that they they could do for all these guys what Pascal did...and they were wrong.

Scottie can't shoot.
Delano can't shoot.
Precious is OK but not great.
OG is OK but not great.
Koloko can't shoot.

They thought they could have an entire team of Pascals...

3 of these guys are first or second year players. 2 are 2nd rounders.

Answer these questions:

Please regale us with Pascal's 3pt shooting stats as a 2nd year player. I'd also like to know who you would have drafted instead of Banton or Koloko who would be helping us right now with shooting and ball handling. Please provide the names of these 2nd round players who are greatly contributing to their teams success, because surely there must have been better options for us?

[mtcan]

There's an article on Yahoo Sports by Oren Weisfeld titled, the 6-9 vision isn't the Raptors problem, shooting is. Something like that. I can't link it now, maybe someone has, or should. Good breakdown of how bad shooting, and the failure to acquire shooters, has sunk our season more than anything else.

It is overconfidence and arrogance from the front office to the coaching staff, really.

They thought they could bring in a bunch of dudes based solely on their long arms and wingspan and then teach them all to be great shooters, ball handlers, etc...thinking that they they could do for all these guys what Pascal did...and they were wrong.

Scottie can't shoot.
Delano can't shoot.
Precious is OK but not great.
OG is OK but not great.
Koloko can't shoot.

They thought they could have an entire team of Pascals...

3 of these guys are first or second year players. 2 are 2nd rounders.

Answer these questions:

Please regale us with Pascal's 3pt shooting stats as a 2nd year player. I'd also like to know who you would have drafted instead of Banton or Koloko who would be helping us right now with shooting and ball handling. Please provide the names of these 2nd round players who are greatly contributing to their teams success, because surely there must have been better options for us?

I'm not going redo the last few drafts just for the sake an argument (although Jaden Hardy has looked really good when given more 20 minutes or more in Dallas/G-League)...but to make an example of the mindset our front office has towards personnel acquisitions. Free agent signings, drafted players, etc...the mindset of the front office seems to be: "I don't care that a player has no offensive talent or mindset because I can teach that. I care that they have ++wingspans and don't always get cooked on defence. We did it with Pascal so we can do it with anyone!" Let's admit...Pascal becoming the player he is...it's lightning in a bottle and you may not be able to repeat that with every guy you bring into the system.

This goes back to loading the roster with free agents like Stanley Johnson, Rondae Hollis-Jefferson, Deandre Bembry, etc. Are there guys in the draft that the front office passed up that could be or are really good players even though they don't fit the profile of what the Raptors are looking for as I described above? Absolutely. I agree that it might be too early to write off Banton and Koloko but on a team that is starved for shooting and scoring...you can't ignore what these guys can't currently give you.

This is vision 6-9.

In contrast, I look at how the Grizzlies have drafted over the last few years and they don't draft with a particular archetype of player/frame. They draft guys who can play...period. Desmond Bane and Dillon Brooks are playing huge starting roles. David Roddy has produced well when given minutes. Jon Konchar and Santi Aldama filled in as a starters when Brooks/Bane/JJJ have been injured and produced. David Roddy has produced when given minutes. Kenneth Lofton Jr. is an awesome pickup who seems to be able to score on anyone once he gets into the lane. NONE of these guys would fit the Raptors profile as a draft target...but in reality these guys are playing key roles on one of the league's best and most exciting teams (or are at least killing it in the G-League in Lofton's case).

Raptors front office had a chance to see if they could develop a roster full of Pascal Siakams and Kawhi Leonards from a bunch of dudes with ++wingspans only and so far it hasn't been the case.

[Spates]

Read on Twitter

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Not a fan of Lewenberg but he touches on the right issues, especially defense and keeping opponents in front.

Interesting, when he said it's not a matter of players not getting along, but that shouldn't matter anyway, he gave the example that there were players on the 2019 title team who "hated each other". Who would that have been?

The only rumor I heard was Fred taking issue with kawhi getting load management. Lowry may have had some issues too but it was always discussed as being with management trading demar?

When the player you hate is a top 3 player in the league you bite your tongue, get in line, and ride the wave. Situations are quiet different. Chemistry matters for all teams, especially developing ones.

[DelAbbot]

It is overconfidence and arrogance from the front office to the coaching staff, really.

They thought they could bring in a bunch of dudes based solely on their long arms and wingspan and then teach them all to be great shooters, ball handlers, etc...thinking that they they could do for all these guys what Pascal did...and they were wrong.

Scottie can't shoot.
Delano can't shoot.
Precious is OK but not great.
OG is OK but not great.
Koloko can't shoot.

They thought they could have an entire team of Pascals...

3 of these guys are first or second year players. 2 are 2nd rounders.

Answer these questions:

Please regale us with Pascal's 3pt shooting stats as a 2nd year player. I'd also like to know who you would have drafted instead of Banton or Koloko who would be helping us right now with shooting and ball handling. Please provide the names of these 2nd round players who are greatly contributing to their teams success, because surely there must have been better options for us?

I'm not going redo the last few drafts just for the sake an argument (although Jaden Hardy has looked really good when given more 20 minutes or more in Dallas/G-League)...but to make an example of the mindset our front office has towards personnel acquisitions. Free agent signings, drafted players, etc...the mindset of the front office seems to be: "I don't care that a player has no offensive talent or mindset because I can teach that. I care that they have ++wingspans and don't always get cooked on defence. We did it with Pascal so we can do it with anyone!" Let's admit...Pascal becoming the player he is...it's lightning in a bottle and you may not be able to repeat that with every guy you bring into the system.

This goes back to loading the roster with free agents like Stanley Johnson, Rondae Hollis-Jefferson, Deandre Bembry, etc. Are there guys in the draft that the front office passed up that could be or are really good players even though they don't fit the profile of what the Raptors are looking for as I described above? Absolutely. I agree that it might be too early to write off Banton and Koloko but on a team that is starved for shooting and scoring...you can't ignore what these guys can't currently give you.

This is vision 6-9.

In contrast, I look at how the Grizzlies have drafted over the last few years and they don't draft with a particular archetype of player/frame. They draft guys who can play...period. Desmond Bane and Dillon Brooks are playing huge starting roles. David Roddy has produced well when given minutes. Jon Konchar and Santi Aldama filled in as a starters when Brooks/Bane/JJJ have been injured and produced. David Roddy has produced when given minutes. Kenneth Lofton Jr. is an awesome pickup who seems to be able to score on anyone once he gets into the lane. NONE of these guys would fit the Raptors profile as a draft target...but in reality these guys are playing key roles on one of the league's best and most exciting teams (or are at least killing it in the G-League in Lofton's case).

Raptors front office had a chance to see if they could develop a roster full of Pascal Siakams and Kawhi Leonards from a bunch of dudes with ++wingspans only and so far it hasn't been the case.

All of these are on point.

Just to add, I'm beginning to lose faith in this vision 6'9, not in terms of whether it works or not, but in the FO's commitment to it. It's well known that the FO verbally offered Fred 114M/4 in the summer - how can they commit to a full lineup of 6'9 and keep the unathletic short-wingspan slow-footed 6 footer? It's a lie.

[Prestige]

Regardless of what is actually going to happen, I’m glad there’s now more room for actual discussion and criticism of Masai and the management team. The last few years, anybody approaching a negative statement about him on this board would be instantly shut down like a crazy man.

He and Bobby are very good, but nobody is perfect and everybody should be fair game to be called out.

[seanbig]

Pascal and fvv are horrible iso / clutch players

No reason for either to be in the all star /all nba convo

[KL78192020]

it’s not my opinion, the records indicate those teams are better than the Raptors and were halfway through the season. So its not a small sample size.

Those teams have better balanced rosters than the raptors and have younger rosters.

That doesn't answer the question. And its definately opinion, with three teams including the Hawks worse this year than they were last year.

Knicks, Cavs, Indy (for now), BRK have improved. But they aren't accounting for the difference in raptors record.

It’s really not worth it Johnny. Somehow the entire league improved so much it’s accounted for us losing 11 more games (if we continue this pace). We’re the only team who didn’t improve.

Also lol at saying half a season isn’t a small sample. We’ve seen teams (like us) go 27-14 in a half season sample (literally last year) but I don’t see anyone claiming we were a 54 win team.

We certainly not a 55 win team, but we’re also not a 35 win team. I don’t know what to say to anyone If they truly think we’re as bad as our record shows

How much more time do they need? 60 games? Cause apparently 46 games in the season isn't enough for you.

Can't beat the bucks without Gianis/Middleton, Hawks without Capela/Bogi, Celtics without Tatum, Wolves without Gobert/Towns. 3/4 of those teams were on back to backs as well.

Yea I'm the clueless one.

[NotMyKawhi]

That doesn't answer the question. And its definately opinion, with three teams including the Hawks worse this year than they were last year.

Knicks, Cavs, Indy (for now), BRK have improved. But they aren't accounting for the difference in raptors record.

It’s really not worth it Johnny. Somehow the entire league improved so much it’s accounted for us losing 11 more games (if we continue this pace). We’re the only team who didn’t improve.

Also lol at saying half a season isn’t a small sample. We’ve seen teams (like us) go 27-14 in a half season sample (literally last year) but I don’t see anyone claiming we were a 54 win team.

We certainly not a 55 win team, but we’re also not a 35 win team. I don’t know what to say to anyone If they truly think we’re as bad as our record shows

How much more time do they need? 60 games? Cause apparently 46 games in the season isn't enough for.

Can't beat the bucks without Gianis/Middleton, Hawks without Capela/Bogi, Celtics without Tatum, Wolves without Gobert/Towns. 3/4 of those teams were on back to backs as well.

Yea I'm the clueless one.

That guy is the biggest homer on the board. His opinion doesn't matter