Bill Simmons RIPS the Raptors roster and salaries. (UPDATE Zach Lowe & Rob Mahoney go in on Raptors)

[WaltFrazier]

Just scanned the last few pages to try to figure what the current topic is, got confused, but then zeroed in on the following.



2. I think the Raps made three big “fork in the road” mistakes after the championship. Trading Powell for Trent. Understandable, but Powell was bonded to that group. Not aggressively pursuing a centre after the Tampa season. I would have forked over two 1st’s for a legit centre at that time. A starting point of Poeltl or Turner or another centre, plus Barnes, Siakam, Anunoby, VanVleet, and Powell could have been something. Not letting go of Nurse as soon as the locker room started to crumble (I’m thinking back to Siakam’s first blow up with him), as it was ultimately money and team dynamics that sunk that versions of the Raps.



Bill Simmons doesn’t have to follow the Raps since he’s not a Raps fan, but I am and I think we are in for a fun year. I am curious to see how this team responds when the focus shifts back to winning games this year. I think much of the roster is chomping at the bit to get after it.

Agree with #2, plus needed to add a back-up PG to replace Kyle. But if the moves had been made during or right after Tampa, you probably keep Nurse because the team would have been winning and competing.

Re Simmons, or people who don't follow any team closely - switching to another team, the Knicks, has shown me that people's opinions about other teams are flawed because they don't follow closely, don't watch every game. I've seen lots of posts on the Knicks board with superficial analysis of the Raps, and vice versa.

[bluerap23]

Bill just knows that Raptor fans get easily triggered. It is too easy for him. Just on the basis of owning all of our picks we are not even close to that bad of a future outlook. They always bring up our contracts, yet we are always under the tax. Complaining about the Scottie contract is beyond dumb. There isn't a team in the league that wouldn't have given him the exact same deal.

[OakleyDokely]

The Celts are in trouble if Tatum isn't able to return to his top 10-15 form. They could just treadmill all the way to 2030 because they don't have cap flexibility and they owe a swap in '28 to the Spurs and the '29 pick was traded unprotected to POR.

[MEDIC]

I think one thing "experts" fail to recognize sometimes is that every market is different & every market has to build rosters in a way that works for that market. You can't hold them all to the same set of roster building norms.

What works for Miami, doesn't necessarily work for Toronto. What works for LAL, doesn't necessarily work for Indiana or Utah.

I mean… sure? I guess? If your motivation is to make excuses for poor performance on the part of management, you could say this, and it might even be true.

Why would Simmons, Russilo, or anyone take that into account when considering which teams are in the worst situations? If they did, wouldn’t that just make the situation even worse?

Not at all. It just means they don't get Tironto and the market and how they have to build.

History has shown that the Raps never get hauls on their players regardless of how good they are. People can blame Mgt but it's always been that way.

With Masai, media ALWAYS were saying Masai wants too much for his players, clearly fed this from other teams. But was he actually just looking for fair value? There was no rumors of any big offers for Siakam even with term...it was Bufkin and Griffin talk. Same with OG...it was 3 late 1sts that might not even convey. And look at how both, and Fred were looked at as Raps vs now when in US markets. Completely different. Christ people couldn't believe how good OG was once he started playing for the Knicks.

No UFA'S sign here...but trading for their rights and signing them has mostly worked out.

They don't get how the Raps use their cap space up even when not contending because the Raps consolidate, not add thru FA. They have to look for undervalued assets and try and build up their value to possibly keep, like Lowry and maybe BI, or use in a trade later on. It's just the Raps way.

This.

Quickley, RJ, Ochai & BI are all raptorish type moves. Trade for a player that you think still has upside (but needs some polishing or maturing or isn't a good fit in previous organization or has an injury history) & try to get the most out of that asset.

Worked out really well with Lowry. Worked out really well with Kawhi. Didn’t work out great for JO or Turkeyglue, but that was previous management.

They look at young players like Lowry, Quickley & RJ as young vets with upside who you pay & hope take the next step (you have to pay someone). They look at guys like BI & Kawhi as dimished assets. They take a gamble, hoping they can turn their careers around after paying less than market value for their skillset.

[sprewellchokes]

Now that Orlando has officially maxed Banchero, can we now consider Orlando another team screwed by the aprons? Banchero's max is just the 25% of cap one for now. I imagine it would bump to 30% if he is all-NBA this season. But even at 25%, the Magic will be spending $155M on 4 players in 2026-27, and growing in the following seasons.

In addition, 3 of the 4 are locked in for 5 years, and the other, Bane is locked in for 4 years.

If they don't perform, some of those contracts are going to be very difficult to move and get a lot of value back.

Yea it makes me wonder.why is the media always pocket watching the raptors? They’re in the same tier as the. Magic. Orlando has had better regular seasons than the raptors. But none of their players haven’t accomplished anything that raptors players haven’t done.

[JB7]

Now that Orlando has officially maxed Banchero, can we now consider Orlando another team screwed by the aprons? Banchero's max is just the 25% of cap one for now. I imagine it would bump to 30% if he is all-NBA this season. But even at 25%, the Magic will be spending $155M on 4 players in 2026-27, and growing in the following seasons.

In addition, 3 of the 4 are locked in for 5 years, and the other, Bane is locked in for 4 years.

If they don't perform, some of those contracts are going to be very difficult to move and get a lot of value back.

Yea it makes me wonder.why is the media always pocket watching the raptors? They’re in the same tier as the. Magic. Orlando has had better regular seasons than the raptors. But none of their players haven’t accomplished anything that raptors players haven’t done.

This is where the media underrating the Raps plays to their advantage. I think the Magic and Raps could be similar in terms of overall performance (wins), it is just that will be viewed as a disappointment for the Magic, because they are expected to be top tier, and for the Raps, they will appear as over performing their expectations.

[PickleJ]

Just scanned the last few pages to try to figure what the current topic is, got confused, but then zeroed in on the following.



2. I think the Raps made three big “fork in the road” mistakes after the championship. Trading Powell for Trent. Understandable, but Powell was bonded to that group. Not aggressively pursuing a centre after the Tampa season. I would have forked over two 1st’s for a legit centre at that time. A starting point of Poeltl or Turner or another centre, plus Barnes, Siakam, Anunoby, VanVleet, and Powell could have been something. Not letting go of Nurse as soon as the locker room started to crumble (I’m thinking back to Siakam’s first blow up with him), as it was ultimately money and team dynamics that sunk that versions of the Raps.


Bill Simmons doesn’t have to follow the Raps since he’s not a Raps fan, but I am and I think we are in for a fun year. I am curious to see how this team responds when the focus shifts back to winning games this year. I think much of the roster is chomping at the bit to get after it.

Agree with #2, plus needed to add a back-up PG to replace Kyle. But if the moves had been made during or right after Tampa, you probably keep Nurse because the team would have been winning and competing.

Re Simmons, or people who don't follow any team closely - switching to another team, the Knicks, has shown me that people's opinions about other teams are flawed because they don't follow closely, don't watch every game. I've seen lots of posts on the Knicks board with superficial analysis of the Raps, and vice versa.

I agree with both your points. The key decision points occurred late in and immediately after the Tampa season, especially considering we hit on Scottie in the grand scheme of things. We could’ve been a back up big and point guard away from keeping this going, both fairly easy to obtain when you have a winning team.

My view on Nurse came to me in hindsight and not moving on from him more proactively was understandable, but also probably the nail in the coffin for getting that group to ever gel again. I do want to be clear that I’m not blaming Nurse solely for the breakdown in cohesion that occurred. I just think that was the last opportunity to change the direction of that squad (though trading one of Siakam, Anuniby, or VanVleet at that time might’ve have served the same purpose).

And absolutely agree with your take on most fans ability to assess other teams. I don’t have the ability to assess other teams or players at all. Perhaps this why Bill Simmons doesn’t interest me much any more. He doesn’t really fill in any gaps in my knowledge. I liked Zach Lowe in the past, because he tried to add a little evidence based substance to his opinions. I think I’d enjoy a coach-like podcaster or YouTuber that can break down strategies and plays so that I could better understand why other teams or players might be have success or not. Do you or any other poster know of any analysts currently doing a good job at this?

[Badonkadonk]

Bill just knows that Raptor fans get easily triggered. It is too easy for him. Just on the basis of owning all of our picks we are not even close to that bad of a future outlook. They always bring up our contracts, yet we are always under the tax. Complaining about the Scottie contract is beyond dumb. There isn't a team in the league that wouldn't have given him the exact same deal.

This. Bill's been doing this for years, even during Grantland and his ESPN days. He loves poking the Toronto market for engagement.

I'm not sure he actually believes what he's saying, all I know for sure is that he's misinformed. I suspect he understands even this.

[Tripod]

I mean… sure? I guess? If your motivation is to make excuses for poor performance on the part of management, you could say this, and it might even be true.

Why would Simmons, Russilo, or anyone take that into account when considering which teams are in the worst situations? If they did, wouldn’t that just make the situation even worse?

Not at all. It just means they don't get Tironto and the market and how they have to build.

History has shown that the Raps never get hauls on their players regardless of how good they are. People can blame Mgt but it's always been that way.

With Masai, media ALWAYS were saying Masai wants too much for his players, clearly fed this from other teams. But was he actually just looking for fair value? There was no rumors of any big offers for Siakam even with term...it was Bufkin and Griffin talk. Same with OG...it was 3 late 1sts that might not even convey. And look at how both, and Fred were looked at as Raps vs now when in US markets. Completely different. Christ people couldn't believe how good OG was once he started playing for the Knicks.

No UFA'S sign here...but trading for their rights and signing them has mostly worked out.

They don't get how the Raps use their cap space up even when not contending because the Raps consolidate, not add thru FA. They have to look for undervalued assets and try and build up their value to possibly keep, like Lowry and maybe BI, or use in a trade later on. It's just the Raps way.

This.

Quickley, RJ, Ochai & BI are all raptorish type moves. Trade for a player that you think still has upside (but needs some polishing or maturing or isn't a good fit in previous organization or has an injury history) & try to get the most out of that asset.

Worked out really well with Lowry. Worked out really well with Kawhi. Didn’t work out great for JO or Turkeyglue, but that was previous management.

They look at young players like Lowry, Quickley & RJ as young vets with upside who you pay & hope take the next step (you have to pay someone). They look at guys like BI & Kawhi as dimished assets. They take a gamble, hoping they can turn their careers around after paying less than market value for their skillset.

Yup.

And even when the Raps ARE good like the pre-championship Raps, they are written about as overachieving but really don't have a chance to win. And even when they win, it's downplayed.

In the end, who cares what media...especially US media thinks. Worry about ourselves and keep building OUR way.

[ConSarnit]

Spark notes version on why I don’t think we’ve been poorly managed is that we’re about to enter a season with average to above average starters at every position in our starting five, and a very young and talented bench with room to grow.

It’s fair to dislike the moves but there’s nothing more ‘objective’ about having a negative view of the roster than there is for those who have a positive view.

We went through a rebuild and we’ve come out the otherside with an interesting and talented group of players. We’ll see how it fits together on court this season

You’re not addressing the correct argument. The argument I was addressing was not about the current team. The argument was that we were objectively poorly run the last 3 years. There is no argument we have been run well the past 3 years. We have zero playoff appearances, the highest draft pick we made was 9th and we sold low on the previous core. We have done some solid things during that time but our expected outcome given our record is well below average.

I just said we did well with the Pascal and OG trades. Why should I have to repeat myself? Say something once, don't say it again.

Do you honestly think Masai and Bobby were too incompetent or stupid to trade them for what you deem to be more value at what you deem to be a better time? Who the hell is some rando on a chat board to criticize them? What inside info do you have?

Fred - what was Raps management supposed to do? Having made the decision - I'm sure after a consult with ownership - to go for the play-in 2023, we weren't gonna trade him for crap at the deadline. And we sure weren't gonna pay him $40+ mill AAV that summer. So he walked. That's life in the big city. We had done well with Fred out of the lineup toward the end of the 2022 season, and in winning two games against the Sixers - despite Scottie being hobbled and OG being his usual meh in the playoffs. So Fred leaving gave us cap flexibity - including the ability to bring in Dennis (who looked pretty good against the Knicks this spring).

Bottom line - I like this current team. CMB and Walter look like exciting young players. We might be able to help BI with his health, the way we helped Kawhi in 2019. So I can't very well discredit the people responsible. You obviously don't like this team. Well ... go dwell in your negativity then.

If you can’t handle people being critical of this team you should consider leaving this board. Your homerism is ridiculous. You’re the exact type of poster I was talking about when referring to the inability to be objective in even the slightest sense.

If Masai had done as great of a job as you think he did why did he get fired?

[ConSarnit]

Not at all. It just means they don't get Tironto and the market and how they have to build.

History has shown that the Raps never get hauls on their players regardless of how good they are. People can blame Mgt but it's always been that way.

With Masai, media ALWAYS were saying Masai wants too much for his players, clearly fed this from other teams. But was he actually just looking for fair value? There was no rumors of any big offers for Siakam even with term...it was Bufkin and Griffin talk. Same with OG...it was 3 late 1sts that might not even convey. And look at how both, and Fred were looked at as Raps vs now when in US markets. Completely different. Christ people couldn't believe how good OG was once he started playing for the Knicks.

No UFA'S sign here...but trading for their rights and signing them has mostly worked out.

They don't get how the Raps use their cap space up even when not contending because the Raps consolidate, not add thru FA. They have to look for undervalued assets and try and build up their value to possibly keep, like Lowry and maybe BI, or use in a trade later on. It's just the Raps way.

This.

Quickley, RJ, Ochai & BI are all raptorish type moves. Trade for a player that you think still has upside (but needs some polishing or maturing or isn't a good fit in previous organization or has an injury history) & try to get the most out of that asset.

Worked out really well with Lowry. Worked out really well with Kawhi. Didn’t work out great for JO or Turkeyglue, but that was previous management.

They look at young players like Lowry, Quickley & RJ as young vets with upside who you pay & hope take the next step (you have to pay someone). They look at guys like BI & Kawhi as dimished assets. They take a gamble, hoping they can turn their careers around after paying less than market value for their skillset.

Yup.

And even when the Raps ARE good like the pre-championship Raps, they are written about as overachieving but really don't have a chance to win. And even when they win, it's downplayed.

In the end, who cares what media...especially US media thinks. Worry about ourselves and keep building OUR way.

What does the US media have to do with us getting less value in our trades? Do you think other GM’s are listening to Kendrick Perkins and assessing trade values based on his opinions?

The excuse making gets crazier and crazier. Now it’s apparently acceptable for us to lose trades because Stephen A Smith is somehow influencing Gregg Popovich’s opinion of our players.

We can’t get free agents because we’re in Canada. We lose our trades because Danny Ainge is consulting with Nick Wright. Why don’t we just move this franchise to Vegas and get it over with?

[Tripod]

This.

Quickley, RJ, Ochai & BI are all raptorish type moves. Trade for a player that you think still has upside (but needs some polishing or maturing or isn't a good fit in previous organization or has an injury history) & try to get the most out of that asset.

Worked out really well with Lowry. Worked out really well with Kawhi. Didn’t work out great for JO or Turkeyglue, but that was previous management.

They look at young players like Lowry, Quickley & RJ as young vets with upside who you pay & hope take the next step (you have to pay someone). They look at guys like BI & Kawhi as dimished assets. They take a gamble, hoping they can turn their careers around after paying less than market value for their skillset.

Yup.

And even when the Raps ARE good like the pre-championship Raps, they are written about as overachieving but really don't have a chance to win. And even when they win, it's downplayed.

In the end, who cares what media...especially US media thinks. Worry about ourselves and keep building OUR way.

What does the US media have to do with us getting less value in our trades? Do you think other GM’s are listening to Kendrick Perkins and assessing trade values based on his opinions?

The excuse making gets crazier and crazier. Now it’s apparently acceptable for us to lose trades because Stephen A Smith is somehow influencing Gregg Popovich’s opinion of our players.

We can’t get free agents because we’re in Canada. We lose our trades because Danny Ainge is consulting with Nick Wright. Why don’t we just move this franchise to Vegas and get it over with?

The media part was to do with the Bill S part....you know, the dude who spewed crap.

You don't think us being in Canada has anything to do with getting UFA's? Come on.

As for losing trades...no, we win a bunch too. I am saying that our players perceived values is 100% lower than if.the exact same team was in the US. When have you EVER heard of the Raps being offered a haul for anyone? Again I go back to the Bufkin/Griffin offer for Siakam...there were no Gobert type offers...or Bane even.

I believe we will climb up the standings again next year and they won't get 1 once of credit. It will be more of the "what are they doing". They don't get it.

[tecumseh18]

If you can’t handle people being critical of this team you should consider leaving this board. Your homerism is ridiculous. You’re the exact type of poster I was talking about when referring to the inability to be objective in even the slightest sense.

If Masai had done as great of a job as you think he did why did he get fired?

I can handle people disagreeing with me. I can appreciate both sides of this argument. If you can't handle people disputing the characterization of the team as being "badly managed", and offering evidence in support of their opinions, without suggesting they leave the board, then YOU'RE the one with a problem, buddy. Making judgment calls that in retrospect were the wrong call =/= badly run team.

For whatever reason, Ed Rogers didn't think Masai was worth $15mill/yr. If Masai had done as poor of a job as you think he did, then why didn't his underlings get fired? Bonus question - how should the Fred situation have been handled?

One of the things you fail to understand is that Raptors had a lot of talent in an undesireable, high tax, high cost city, and an ownership which was refusing to go into the tax. Which made it tough to hold onto players from year while staying under the CBA tax threshold. The Raptors managed it by offering 2-3 deals deals and player options. It was inevitable that two of the deals would expire in the same season. Inevitable. Not bad management.

[Kingsway_fan]

The Celts are in trouble if Tatum isn't able to return to his top 10-15 form. They could just treadmill all the way to 2030 because they don't have cap flexibility and they owe a swap in '28 to the Spurs and the '29 pick was traded unprotected to POR.

While Raptors have all their picks.... and a young base of players.

[Badonkadonk]

I look forward to all the people who agree the Raps have the bleakest outlook in the East to jumping off the bandwagon. I mean, who willingly signs up for 5 years of misery, unless your sole objective is to troll?

[TheProfessor]

I look forward to all the people who agree the Raps have the bleakest outlook in the East to jumping off the bandwagon. I mean, who willingly signs up for 5 years of misery, unless your sole objective is to troll?

You can be a fan, and still realize that Toronto is in a godawful position. Aside from the Suns who is truly in a worse position than the Raptors? No S or A-tier talent. Over paid B-tier talent (Barnes, Ingram). Signficantly overpaid C tier talent (Quickley). Only 1 2 way player on the roster (Potentially 2). Flawed roster construction.

Just happy Masai is gone and hopefully we can start to clean house.

[Dalek]

I look forward to all the people who agree the Raps have the bleakest outlook in the East to jumping off the bandwagon. I mean, who willingly signs up for 5 years of misery, unless your sole objective is to troll?

I went through the Babcock and Colangelo years with the same worries as now. We aren't in the best position to be long-term winners without getting some future picks or cap flexibility.

Toronto can always change its outlook by bringing in a new president that is committed to a true rebuild. There is still some hope for change.

In the end I support the players and get hyped about the young talent, but the management of the team has to be smarter about negotiating salaries and cap space and not be so willing to commit to something so unproven.

[djsunyc]

I look forward to all the people who agree the Raps have the bleakest outlook in the East to jumping off the bandwagon. I mean, who willingly signs up for 5 years of misery, unless your sole objective is to troll?

You can be a fan, and still realize that Toronto is in a godawful position. Aside from the Suns who is truly in a worse position than the Raptors? No S or A-tier talent. Over paid B-tier talent (Barnes, Ingram). Signficantly overpaid C tier talent (Quickley). Only 1 2 way player on the roster (Potentially 2). Flawed roster construction.

Just happy Masai is gone and hopefully we can start to clean house.

colangelo's roster had 3 unrealized winners (kyle, demar, jonas along with coach casey).
there could be some unrealized winners here too.

[Duffman100]

I look forward to all the people who agree the Raps have the bleakest outlook in the East to jumping off the bandwagon. I mean, who willingly signs up for 5 years of misery, unless your sole objective is to troll?

You can be a fan, and still realize that Toronto is in a godawful position. Aside from the Suns who is truly in a worse position than the Raptors? No S or A-tier talent. Over paid B-tier talent (Barnes, Ingram). Signficantly overpaid C tier talent (Quickley). Only 1 2 way player on the roster (Potentially 2). Flawed roster construction.

Just happy Masai is gone and hopefully we can start to clean house.

Several other teams are in a worse spot than we are right now.

[YogurtProducer]

You’re not addressing the correct argument. The argument I was addressing was not about the current team. The argument was that we were objectively poorly run the last 3 years. There is no argument we have been run well the past 3 years. We have zero playoff appearances, the highest draft pick we made was 9th and we sold low on the previous core. We have done some solid things during that time but our expected outcome given our record is well below average.

I just said we did well with the Pascal and OG trades. Why should I have to repeat myself? Say something once, don't say it again.

Do you honestly think Masai and Bobby were too incompetent or stupid to trade them for what you deem to be more value at what you deem to be a better time? Who the hell is some rando on a chat board to criticize them? What inside info do you have?

Fred - what was Raps management supposed to do? Having made the decision - I'm sure after a consult with ownership - to go for the play-in 2023, we weren't gonna trade him for crap at the deadline. And we sure weren't gonna pay him $40+ mill AAV that summer. So he walked. That's life in the big city. We had done well with Fred out of the lineup toward the end of the 2022 season, and in winning two games against the Sixers - despite Scottie being hobbled and OG being his usual meh in the playoffs. So Fred leaving gave us cap flexibity - including the ability to bring in Dennis (who looked pretty good against the Knicks this spring).

Bottom line - I like this current team. CMB and Walter look like exciting young players. We might be able to help BI with his health, the way we helped Kawhi in 2019. So I can't very well discredit the people responsible. You obviously don't like this team. Well ... go dwell in your negativity then.

If you can’t handle people being critical of this team you should consider leaving this board. Your homerism is ridiculous. You’re the exact type of poster I was talking about when referring to the inability to be objective in even the slightest sense.

If Masai had done as great of a job as you think he did why did he get fired?

Seems to me like you’re the one who isn’t objective based on my experiences with you.