Reasons to Keep Bargnani

[dacrusha]

Well everyone agrees Camby is better than Bargnani. Naturally we'd be better with him but still not more than a 25-30 W team. We'd be worse with Kwame and Biedrins. They stink.

Dalembert is a good comparison actually. Would we be better with him starting full time? By my books we'd be slightly better defensively (Daly is an overrated defender mind you, his bball IQ sucks and he jumps at blocks to get them), and much, much worse offensively. He's not helping the Kings play better than us, at least.

I think Bargnani has more impact on the game than Dalembert for most teams. Either way him and Biedrins are 10 mil players like Bargnani. Slightly above average Cs cost money. At this point Biedrins is not a slightly above average C, though

I don't agree that Camby's value is much more than that of Bargs. For the same reasons some people overvalue Bargs because of the "20ppg", Camby's "11rpg" somehow has him at some type of additional value to fans.

He's an OK post defender but has always lacked the mass and strength to defend the bulkier Cs. He's an average help defender but gets over rated because of the highlight blocks, and he'll sacrifice team defensive rebounding position to grab anything and everything that comes off the rim.

I fixed that for you.

Camby is a four time all-defense player and, even though he's a few years removed from his glory days, still provides a defensive presence that we could only dream Bargs would provide.

A center's #1 priority on a team is to protect the basket defensively and that alone makes Camby infinitely more valuable than Bargs, even at this stage of this career.

[Local_NG_Idiot]

I fixed that for you.

Camby is a four time all-defense player and, even though he's a few years removed from his glory days, still provides a defensive presence that we could only dream Bargs would provide.

A center's #1 priority on a team is to protect the basket defensively and that alone makes Camby infinitely more valuable than Bargs, even at this stage of this career.

Camby on the offensive side of the ball is a jump shooting big man who can't shoot though. Other than the occasional dunk and fluke fling from behind his head from 18ft., he can't put the ball in the bucket. So yes while he is a much needed competent defending big man who isn't dominant on the defensive end, he's not exactly what you would call a must guard on the offensive side.

He is the bizzaro-world Bargs IMO, since everything he does on the defensive side of the ball is negated by his inability to do anything positive on the offensive side of the ball. You do have a point though, if this was 4 or 5 years ago for Camby then yes he would have much more value since his defensive impact back then was greater. Current Camby? He's a 25mpg C shooting at .399 FG% and .429 TS% while his team ranks middle of the pack defensively.

[I_Like_Dirt]

I generally agree with what you're suggesting, LG, but the thing is, you can get guards to make up for the perimeter scoring that Bargnani provides. Maybe not the current Raptors' guards, but it's definitely more than possible as a lot of teams have done it. You can't get guards to cover for Andrea's weak interior D. Another thing is that Camby isn't quite the net 0 on offense you suggest. He can't score, but he still needs to be defended in the paint because if you leave him unattended he'll grab the offensive rebound and all the defense you played up until that point will be meaningless. If Andrea doesn't have the ball, opposing teams can leave him relatively unguarded so long as there is a player in his general vicinity and just rotate if the pass goes his way because they know he isn't going to be grabbing any offensive rebounds or setting particularly effective picks.

[Indeed]

Well everyone agrees Camby is better than Bargnani. Naturally we'd be better with him but still not more than a 25-30 W team. We'd be worse with Kwame and Biedrins. They stink.

Dalembert is a good comparison actually. Would we be better with him starting full time? By my books we'd be slightly better defensively (Daly is an overrated defender mind you, his bball IQ sucks and he jumps at blocks to get them), and much, much worse offensively. He's not helping the Kings play better than us, at least.

I think Bargnani has more impact on the game than Dalembert for most teams. Either way him and Biedrins are 10 mil players like Bargnani. Slightly above average Cs cost money. At this point Biedrins is not a slightly above average C, though

I don't agree that Camby's value is much more than that of Bargs. For the same reasons some people overvalue Bargs because of the "20ppg", Camby's "11rpg" somehow has him at some type of additional value to fans.

He's an OK post defender but has always lacked the mass and strength to defend the bulkier Cs. He's an average help defender but gets over rated because of the highlight blocks, and he'll sacrifice team defensive rebounding position to grab anything and everything that comes off the rim.

I fixed that for you.

Camby is a four time all-defense player and, even though he's a few years removed from his glory days, still provides a defensive presence that we could only dream Bargs would provide.

A center's #1 priority on a team is to protect the basket defensively and that alone makes Camby infinitely more valuable than Bargs, even at this stage of this career.

Last night we can't score against the zone.
Our first priority is a playmaker with explosive first step and change speed to get pass the first man, then pass to one of our great finisher in Bargnani, DeRozan and Amir. Even James Johnson has a good finishing touch around the rim, he just needs to improve his shooting.

It has been great lately as we changed our offense to more motion and ball sharing.
1) Bargnani pick and roll. It was great, works well the last few games; furthermore Bargnani can pass big to big after the roll, then we are very much like Utah.
2) Off ball pick. Re-watching the DeRozan dunk in the third period, it was Bargnani sets an off ball pick, and DeRozan went back door for a fantastic dunk.
3) Barbosa pick and roll with Amir on final shot. It works exactly as I wish for, have a quick guard play pick and roll with Amir, while Bargnani is ready for a quick shot.

There are other screening in the previous few games, and all of a sudden we came a live.
Our defense with Bargnani also improved, much better help defense, play the zone mentality instead of man; win in terms of team strategy rather than individual effort. Sometimes still frustrating, but there are lots of improvements as I believe the team can be good enough without a shot blocker.

[Nothingface]

Quick question:

Is there another 22 ppg or even 20 ppg scorer in the league with lesser scorers around him than Bargnani?

People harp on his efficiency, but he doesn't have much around him to make it easier for him. The closest thing I guess is Demar, but once he gets the ball he rarely passes, so it's not like anyone benefits from the defenders he draws.

[Basketball_Jones]

Quick question:

Is there another 22 ppg or even 20 ppg scorer in the league with lesser scorers around him than Bargnani?

People harp on his efficiency, but he doesn't have much around him to make it easier for him. The closest thing I guess is Demar, but once he gets the ball he rarely passes, so it's not like anyone benefits from the defenders he draws.

I don't know, but I don't think it's that big of a concern.

[Comeatme_Bro]

Quick question:

Is there another 22 ppg or even 20 ppg scorer in the league with lesser scorers around him than Bargnani?

People harp on his efficiency, but he doesn't have much around him to make it easier for him. The closest thing I guess is Demar, but once he gets the ball he rarely passes, so it's not like anyone benefits from the defenders he draws.

Like you said we don't have many scorers on this team so who do you want DeMar to pass too? Bargnani can't take all the shots and someone else has to carry the load from time to time. And btw, Bargnani is a much bigger blackhole than DeMar.

[Death Knight]

Quick question:

Is there another 22 ppg or even 20 ppg scorer in the league with lesser scorers around him than Bargnani?

People harp on his efficiency, but he doesn't have much around him to make it easier for him. The closest thing I guess is Demar, but once he gets the ball he rarely passes, so it's not like anyone benefits from the defenders he draws.

Please.........

If this team had players around Bargnani we'd be saying he is being held back. IE - Bosh held Bargnani back. With the keys now, we say he ain't got much around him.

[Comeatme_Bro]

Not to mention Bargnani has always been an inefficient scorer. Only reason he is getting 22ppg is because of more shots. Simple as that.

[Basketball_Jones]

I don't know guys, he looks pretty unstoppable to me. Never misses.

[vergogna]

Not to mention Bargnani has always been an inefficient scorer. Only reason he is getting 22ppg is because of more shots. Simple as that.

always been an inefficient scorer?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... nan01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... _by=ts_pct

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... _by=ts_pct

with the exception of Amir and Ed (6.9 and 5.0 fga/g) he has also the best TS% of the team

[Nothingface]

I love the skirting of the actual question.

[Death Knight]

I love the skirting of the actual question.

You're question is flawed, that's why.

[Basketball_Jones]

alright fine. Bargs would shoot 50 percent from the floor and average 30 points a game if he had more scorers around him. he'd also grab 8 rebounds a game and would be a good defender and would have no weaknesses to his game. he just needs more scorers.

[Tony_Montana]

I love the skirting of the actual question.

That his inefficiency is a product of playing with bad players? lol.

[Nothingface]

I love the skirting of the actual question.

That his inefficiency is a product of playing with bad players? lol.

Good argument. You have given me much to think about.

[Harry Palmer]

I love the skirting of the actual question.

That his inefficiency is a product of playing with bad players? lol.

Good argument. You have given me much to think about.

You don't see your flaw, though?

What you did is, in rhetorical terms, called a lobster trap. You pose a question whose parameters frame the only answer you want to receive rather than actually establish anything.

For example: My theorum: Bargs is a bad rebounder because all Euro bigs taken at the top of the draft are.

How many can you name who aren't?

See, it's not a sincere question, it's one whose sole aim is to solidify an arbitrary goal-oriented set of parameters by pretending to open it up for consideration.

[Too Late Crew]

Quick question:

Is there another 22 ppg or even 20 ppg scorer in the league with lesser scorers around him than Bargnani?

People harp on his efficiency, but he doesn't have much around him to make it easier for him. The closest thing I guess is Demar, but once he gets the ball he rarely passes, so it's not like anyone benefits from the defenders he draws.

Yes there is..it wasn't even hard..

Danny Granger 20.7 ppg

Next best is collison at 13, Hibber at 12.6

Bargs 22
Denar 17
Barbosa 13

A better question might be how many 20 ppg scorers have 65% of their offense crated FOR them (via assists from their teamates)? That's what Bargs does

Granger is around 58%
Even a guy like Howard who can't dribble and needs the ball fed to him in the post is down below 50.

Add the fact that creates almost nothing for his teamates and we should probaly ask: Why isn't a guy who has 65% of his offense created for him and isn't asked to do anything but score not MORE efficeint than he is?

[Nothingface]

Quick question:

Is there another 22 ppg or even 20 ppg scorer in the league with lesser scorers around him than Bargnani?

People harp on his efficiency, but he doesn't have much around him to make it easier for him. The closest thing I guess is Demar, but once he gets the ball he rarely passes, so it's not like anyone benefits from the defenders he draws.

Yes there is..it wasn't even hard..

Danny Granger 20.7 ppg

Next best is collison at 13, Hibber at 12.6

Bargs 22
Denar 17
Barbosa 13

Granger scores less at lower ts%.

[Schad]

Granger scores less at lower ts%.

Granger's TS% is .553; Bargs' is .535.