The too early Suggs vs. Barnes thread

[alpngso]

The Suggs vs Barnes debate sort of resembles drafting a college pitcher vs high school pitcher

[SunBoy]

I think Barnes oozes potential AND I do think it makes more sense to take a more projectable player with high upside (ie Suggs) when you have a pick this high instead of risking it on a project. The hardest part of last nights game for me wasn't his offence, it was Kuminga bodying him - which should be his calling card. Masai has earned my trust and I believe, but it I think it's also totally appropriate to critique and compare picks performance in the SL.

That said, we haven't been through a proper rebuild with the raps in over a decade so this may very well be the best path to a chip in the longer term if Scottie rounds into all-star form.

Hopefully Scottie shows out tonight and shows us glimpses of why he has Giannis 2.0 potential.

[OakleyDokely]

I think Barnes oozes potential AND I do think it makes more sense to take a more projectable player with high upside (ie Suggs) when you have a pick this high instead of risking it on a project. The hardest part of last nights game for me wasn't his offence, it was Kuminga bodying him - which should be his calling card. Masai has earned my trust and I believe, but it I think it's also totally appropriate to critique and compare picks performance in the SL.

That said, we haven't been through a proper rebuild with the raps in over a decade so this may very well be the best path to a chip in the longer term if Scottie rounds into all-star form.

Hopefully Scottie shows out tonight and shows us glimpses of why he has Giannis 2.0 potential.

It should be noted that Kuminga shot 5-17. So Barnes and Raps defense made him an inefficient scorer.

[Pooh_Jeter]

i think scottie has shown enough upside in the 2 games to be optimistic he be a chance of being a 20+ scorer. And more importantly, his scoring will translate better in the playoffs compared to a guard like Suggs. Size matters in basketball, and it even becomes more important in the playoffs. Trae has the potential to be a first option due to his transcendental court vision, not his scoring. Suggs never has and never will be a Trae level playmaker. If Suggs ever wants to be a first option of a championship team, he will need to have a truly outlier shooting improvement from average shooter to one of the best in the league, which is incredibly unlikely. All Scottie needs to do is improve from a bad shooter to a decent one, which is much more likely.

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Siakam's efficiency plummets in the playoffs. You need to be a skilled scorer, regardless of size, to enjoy playoff success.

Obviously skill matters. The Raptors are betting Scottie gets much more skilled in 3 years. The point is even the best guards like Steph Dame Kyrie all have their efficiency decrease in the playoffs. The best wings like LeBron Kawhi KD efficiency increases. If my goal is to get a true first option, I'm putting my money on a jumbo sized wing whos ahead of schedule in handling and playmaking rather than a guard without outlier passing, shooting or athleticism like Suggs

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Theoretically speaking you have a fair point.

The problem is that the gap between Barnes and Kawhi/KD/LeBron is absolutely massive. He is a solid playmaker and has a good handle for someone his size. Other than that he is completely raw offensively.

Suggs isn't Steph/Dame/Trae, but his overall skillset is much closer to actually reaching that range than Barnes.

You're basically banking on Suggs improving marginally and Barnes literally having the greatest development curve in NBA history. That's not a bet I'd be willing to take.

[NBA Sheady]

I'm telling yall we got non robotic Kawhi (ceiling) or notta donkey Draymond (mid).. or Kyle Anderson on steroids. (Floor)

That middle scenario is a heck of a player.

[bon]

Siakam's efficiency plummets in the playoffs. You need to be a skilled scorer, regardless of size, to enjoy playoff success.

Obviously skill matters. The Raptors are betting Scottie gets much more skilled in 3 years. The point is even the best guards like Steph Dame Kyrie all have their efficiency decrease in the playoffs. The best wings like LeBron Kawhi KD efficiency increases. If my goal is to get a true first option, I'm putting my money on a jumbo sized wing whos ahead of schedule in handling and playmaking rather than a guard without outlier passing, shooting or athleticism like Suggs

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Theoretically speaking you have a fair point.

The problem is that the gap between Barnes and Kawhi/KD/LeBron is absolutely massive. He is a solid playmaker and has a good handle for someone his size. Other than that he is completely raw offensively.

Suggs isn't Steph/Dame/Trae, but his overall skillset is much closer to actually reaching that range than Barnes.

You're basically banking on Suggs improving marginally and Barnes literally having the greatest development curve in NBA history. That's not a bet I'd be willing to take.

If Suggs only needed marginal improvement to be Steph/Dame/Trae he would have went #1 ffs. Come on

[OakleyDokely]

Suggs is basically Jrue.

He's going to fill the stat sheet, he's going to defend like hell, but if you're counting on him to be your 1st option, you won't be very good. There's nothing about his offensive game that suggests he's going to be a dynamic scorer like Curry or Harden, which is what he will need to be to get to #1 guy status.

That said, grabbing a potential #2/3 guy in the top 5 is a great pick. But lets not pretend the Raps passed over the next Harden. If he was the next Harden he would've went 1st or 2nd.

[C_Money]

Suggs is basically Jrue.

He's going to fill the stat sheet, he's going to defend like hell, but if you're counting on him to be your 1st option, you won't be very good. There's nothing about his offensive game that suggests he's going to be a dynamic scorer like Curry or Harden, which is what he will need to be to get to #1 guy status.

That said, grabbing a potential #2/3 guy in the top 5 is a great pick. But lets not pretend the Raps passed over the next Harden. If he was the next Harden he would've went 1st or 2nd.

It was a pretty stacked draft though. In other years Suggs would have gone 1 or 2.

[OakleyDokely]

Suggs is basically Jrue.

He's going to fill the stat sheet, he's going to defend like hell, but if you're counting on him to be your 1st option, you won't be very good. There's nothing about his offensive game that suggests he's going to be a dynamic scorer like Curry or Harden, which is what he will need to be to get to #1 guy status.

That said, grabbing a potential #2/3 guy in the top 5 is a great pick. But lets not pretend the Raps passed over the next Harden. If he was the next Harden he would've went 1st or 2nd.

It was a pretty stacked draft though. In other years Suggs would have gone 1 or 2.

That still wouldn't make him Steph or Curry though.

Those guys were offensive dynamo's early on. Suggs has never displayed that type of ability.

[MonkBatter42]

I just think a lot of people are in the midst of hyper-rationalizing the Barnes pick. There was an uproar on here when he was picked on draft night. I truly want Barnes to succeed and improve his skillset, and it would bring me no pleasure to say "told you so" down the road, but Suggs was just the obvious pick. We knew Kyle was leaving, and also knew that Fred was a lot better suited off the ball. Having a tall point guard with pretty good athleticism would have been great, and a breath of fresh air after rolling with a 6 foot backcourt with subpar athleticism for so long. The Barnes pick is so reminiscent of the Chicago Bulls picking Patrick Williams (also from Florida State) with the fourth pick, the year prior. The difference is that the 2021 draft was SO much deeper. In hindsight, it would have almost been better to have ended up with the 7-9th pick, and picked James Bouknight, who I think will be an absolute wing scoring stud.

[MonkBatter42]

Suggs is basically Jrue.

He's going to fill the stat sheet, he's going to defend like hell, but if you're counting on him to be your 1st option, you won't be very good. There's nothing about his offensive game that suggests he's going to be a dynamic scorer like Curry or Harden, which is what he will need to be to get to #1 guy status.

That said, grabbing a potential #2/3 guy in the top 5 is a great pick. But lets not pretend the Raps passed over the next Harden. If he was the next Harden he would've went 1st or 2nd.

Except for the fact that Harden was the third overall pick..

[normgod6]

I just think a lot of people are in the midst of hyper-rationalizing the Barnes pick. There was an uproar on here when he was picked on draft night. I truly want Barnes to succeed and improve his skillset, and it would bring me no pleasure to say "told you so" down the road, but Suggs was just the obvious pick. We knew Kyle was leaving, and also knew that Fred was a lot better suited off the ball. Having a tall point guard with pretty good athleticism would have been great, and a breath of fresh air after rolling with a 6 foot backcourt with subpar athleticism for so long. The Barnes pick is so reminiscent of the Chicago Bulls picking Patrick Williams (also from Florida State) with the fourth pick, the year prior. The difference is that the 2021 draft was SO much deeper. In hindsight, it would have almost been better to have ended up with the 7-9th pick, and picked James Bouknight, who I think will be an absolute wing scoring stud.

i was always down on suggs due to his lack of any real elite offensive skill and the fact that hes a guard. I wanted to trade up for Mobley but I am genuinely excited to see how Barnes look like in 3 years. No need to rationalize for me

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[dc]

Hopefully Scottie shows out tonight and shows us glimpses of why he has Giannis 2.0 potential.

Dude, I just don't see the Giannis potential. He'll need a Giannis like growth spurt for starters. He's 6'7" right now. A 6'7" Giannis wouldn't be the same as a 6'11" version of him.

He's a good athlete, but not a freak athlete. He doesn't have tremendous footspeed. He's got long arms and good playmaking instincts for his size. But even watching his HS or college highlights, the guy is a gifted player but he never struck me as a #1 scoring option or physically dominating freak.

Always looked to me like a high level glue guy who does something of everything.

[MonkBatter42]

I just think a lot of people are in the midst of hyper-rationalizing the Barnes pick. There was an uproar on here when he was picked on draft night. I truly want Barnes to succeed and improve his skillset, and it would bring me no pleasure to say "told you so" down the road, but Suggs was just the obvious pick. We knew Kyle was leaving, and also knew that Fred was a lot better suited off the ball. Having a tall point guard with pretty good athleticism would have been great, and a breath of fresh air after rolling with a 6 foot backcourt with subpar athleticism for so long. The Barnes pick is so reminiscent of the Chicago Bulls picking Patrick Williams (also from Florida State) with the fourth pick, the year prior. The difference is that the 2021 draft was SO much deeper. In hindsight, it would have almost been better to have ended up with the 7-9th pick, and picked James Bouknight, who I think will be an absolute wing scoring stud.

i was always down on suggs due to his lack of any real elite offensive skill and the fact that hes a guard. I wanted to trade up for Mobley but I am genuinely excited to see how Barnes look like in 3 years. No need to rationalize for me

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When we moved up all the way to the 4th pick, I don't think many people were thinking "let's draft a project who will be ready in 3 years" in one of the deepest drafts in years. That mentality is usually reserved for guys maybe drafted as early as the mid-first round, and especially not for a team that is in desperate need of offence.

[Mehar]

Hopefully Scottie shows out tonight and shows us glimpses of why he has Giannis 2.0 potential.

Dude, I just don't see the Giannis potential. He'll need a Giannis like growth spurt for starters. He's 6'7" right now. A 6'7" Giannis wouldn't be the same as a 6'11" version of him.

He's a good athlete, but not a freak athlete. He doesn't have tremendous footspeed. He's got long arms and good playmaking instincts for his size. But even watching his HS or college highlights, the guy is a gifted player but he never struck me as a #1 scoring option or physically dominating freak.

Always looked to me like a high level glue guy who does something of everything.

Very well stated by you. Barnes needs to grow 4 more inches to be compared to Giannis, yet some posters in this forum continue to make the comparison. Giannis now measures 6 foot 11 without shoes, and 7 feet in shoes. If Giannis was 6 foot 7 like Barnes, he would not be as effective as he is right now.

A real comparison for Barnes is that he hopefully becomes a much better version of Draymond Green. Green mesures 6 foot 6 barefoot, and Barnes is an inch taller at 6 foot 7. Unless Barnes grows 3-4 more inches (which is unlikely since he turned 20), I do not see the Giannis comparisons, but some posters continue to make that comparision.

[OakleyDokely]

Suggs is basically Jrue.

He's going to fill the stat sheet, he's going to defend like hell, but if you're counting on him to be your 1st option, you won't be very good. There's nothing about his offensive game that suggests he's going to be a dynamic scorer like Curry or Harden, which is what he will need to be to get to #1 guy status.

That said, grabbing a potential #2/3 guy in the top 5 is a great pick. But lets not pretend the Raps passed over the next Harden. If he was the next Harden he would've went 1st or 2nd.

Except for the fact that Harden was the third overall pick..

The point doesn't change though, unless you think suggs has shown the same offensive potential as harden at similar ages.

[Pooh_Jeter]

Obviously skill matters. The Raptors are betting Scottie gets much more skilled in 3 years. The point is even the best guards like Steph Dame Kyrie all have their efficiency decrease in the playoffs. The best wings like LeBron Kawhi KD efficiency increases. If my goal is to get a true first option, I'm putting my money on a jumbo sized wing whos ahead of schedule in handling and playmaking rather than a guard without outlier passing, shooting or athleticism like Suggs

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Theoretically speaking you have a fair point.

The problem is that the gap between Barnes and Kawhi/KD/LeBron is absolutely massive. He is a solid playmaker and has a good handle for someone his size. Other than that he is completely raw offensively.

Suggs isn't Steph/Dame/Trae, but his overall skillset is much closer to actually reaching that range than Barnes.

You're basically banking on Suggs improving marginally and Barnes literally having the greatest development curve in NBA history. That's not a bet I'd be willing to take.

If Suggs only needed marginal improvement to be Steph/Dame/Trae he would have went #1 ffs. Come on

That's not what I said at all.

[normgod6]

I just think a lot of people are in the midst of hyper-rationalizing the Barnes pick. There was an uproar on here when he was picked on draft night. I truly want Barnes to succeed and improve his skillset, and it would bring me no pleasure to say "told you so" down the road, but Suggs was just the obvious pick. We knew Kyle was leaving, and also knew that Fred was a lot better suited off the ball. Having a tall point guard with pretty good athleticism would have been great, and a breath of fresh air after rolling with a 6 foot backcourt with subpar athleticism for so long. The Barnes pick is so reminiscent of the Chicago Bulls picking Patrick Williams (also from Florida State) with the fourth pick, the year prior. The difference is that the 2021 draft was SO much deeper. In hindsight, it would have almost been better to have ended up with the 7-9th pick, and picked James Bouknight, who I think will be an absolute wing scoring stud.

i was always down on suggs due to his lack of any real elite offensive skill and the fact that hes a guard. I wanted to trade up for Mobley but I am genuinely excited to see how Barnes look like in 3 years. No need to rationalize for me

Sent from my SM-A530W using RealGM Forums mobile app

When we moved up all the way to the 4th pick, I don't think many people were thinking "let's draft a project who will be ready in 3 years" in one of the deepest drafts in years. That mentality is usually reserved for guys maybe drafted as early as the mid-first round, and especially not for a team that is in desperate need of offence.

I never bought into the FVV and Siakam core and in my ideal world I wanted Masai to kickstart a rebuild around Mobley, who also is a long term project. A rebuild around Scottie sounds like a great plan B to me. I just think drafting guards without elite, outlier skills with a top pick is a mistake because guards' ceilings as playoff threats has a very oppressive cap and guards absolutely need an elite, outlier skill to stand out, which Suggs does not have.

[Mehar]

Suggs is basically Jrue.

He's going to fill the stat sheet, he's going to defend like hell, but if you're counting on him to be your 1st option, you won't be very good. There's nothing about his offensive game that suggests he's going to be a dynamic scorer like Curry or Harden, which is what he will need to be to get to #1 guy status.

That said, grabbing a potential #2/3 guy in the top 5 is a great pick. But lets not pretend the Raps passed over the next Harden. If he was the next Harden he would've went 1st or 2nd.

It was a pretty stacked draft though. In other years Suggs would have gone 1 or 2.

Hypothetically speaking, if this was the year 2020, and the Minnesota Timberwolves had the first overall pick. Suggs would have
gone first overall. His hometown team would have picked him. A talent like Suggs would have gone first or second in other years, especially when we had guys like Markelle Fultz going first overall.

[Raps in 4]

Suggs is basically Jrue.

He's going to fill the stat sheet, he's going to defend like hell, but if you're counting on him to be your 1st option, you won't be very good. There's nothing about his offensive game that suggests he's going to be a dynamic scorer like Curry or Harden, which is what he will need to be to get to #1 guy status.

That said, grabbing a potential #2/3 guy in the top 5 is a great pick. But lets not pretend the Raps passed over the next Harden. If he was the next Harden he would've went 1st or 2nd.

The point is that he's much closer to being the next Harden than Barnes is to being the next Kawhi. Barnes has a mountain to climb to become an elite offensive threat. Suggs' path is significantly easier.