Windhorst: Raptors making noise around the league looking for a “big fish” // Giannis & Toronto "Mutual Interest"/KD too

[WuTang_CMB]

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[tsherkin]

Sabonis is such a bad fit.

Obv doesn’t space the floor and not a good defender.

Say what?

I'm with you on the defense part, but he was a nearly-42% shooter from 3 on over 2 attempts per game (almost exclusively above the break), and shot over 45% from 16-23 feet.

He definitely spaces the floor.

[DatHomieYouHaTe]

Sorry guys but Doug Smith reporting it first isn’t credible

he's taking advantage of what windy said and it's smart on his part.. Lot of these reporters can make up some amazing things for clicks and views. He might be right or wrong.

[MiamiSPX]

If Giannis trade ever becomes a possibility and Bucks accept a deal you have to take it and shape out the roster as you go ....Getting a player like Giannis in the door is just the first step...

Of course you take it and run. I would give them Barnes, RJ, IQ, Dick and a bunch of draft picks if that is what it took. Collectively their careers won't even come close to Giannis'. This is a generational player who is a culture setter. First guy there, last guy to leave, incredibly humble. and a class act off the court. He picks your team, you give them whatever they want.

[YogurtProducer]

Going after Giannis would gut the team, and not leave them with enough to be a contender after

I thought that with the Durant/Dame rumours of the past.

I don't think it's nearly as bad now.

Doesnt hurt that I have way more faith in GIannis being elite for 2 years than I did with KD or Dame either.

KD was never feasible from a salary matching standpoint. Dame moreso was and I was on the fence there (wrongly).

Giannis there is legit salary matching, and assets I'd be willing to part with without gutting.

[Pointgod]

Had a dream we got Giannis. But Scottie got traded too.

I had a nightmare we traded for Sabonis….

[YogurtProducer]

Sabonis is such a bad fit.

Obv doesn’t space the floor and not a good defender.

Say what?

I'm with you on the defense part, but he was a nearly-42% shooter from 3 on over 2 attempts per game (almost exclusively above the break), and shot over 45% from 16-23 feet.

He definitely spaces the floor.

HE spaces the floor with those massive screens to. I still remember watching him and Fox do dribble handoffs that just were devastating.

I have zero faith on Sabonis defensively, but he would be lethal offensively with a legit 3 point PG threat. AS good as Fox is, that was not him. Sabonis and IQ on a dribble hand off where you cant afford to go under cause IQ would let it rip would be a great go to play. (and then teams would annihilate Sabonis in the PnR )

[PhilBlackson]

Sabonis is such a bad fit.

Obv doesn’t space the floor and not a good defender.

Say what?

I'm with you on the defense part, but he was a nearly-42% shooter from 3 on over 2 attempts per game (almost exclusively above the break), and shot over 45% from 16-23 feet.

He definitely spaces the floor.

I’ll admit I hadn’t checked Sabonis’ 3pt shooting in awhile but just remembered he was shooting low 30s for years. Actually really surprised to see he’s been high 30s+ the last few years so I gladly accept my crow lol

Still don’t love the fit defensively but the improved shooting definitely lightens the opposition to it. Personally I don’t feel like he’s the piece that would put the team over the top so I’m not a huge fan on using our best assets to get him.

[DreamTeam09]

If this team were to trade for GA, I would only want him to play centre. And I'm not sure he wants to play centre, does he?

So you'd take a top ten centre off the floor, so Giannis could play out of position?

How does it work otherwise? You want to take Barnes or Ingram out? I would think then they would obviously be shopping Poeltl for another backup C. Or draft one.

The spacing would be horrible. And I do not think that is out of position.

IQ
Ingram
Barnes
Giannis
Jakob

Spacing smasing, out the 5 best players on the court - IQ and Ingram can hit jumpers

[WaltFrazier]

After seeing how Turner and Pascal fit together, the priority has to be a C who can shoot. JJJ would be perfect, but like Canada, he's not for sale. I've never liked KAT as a player (although he seems nice as a person). And I'm pretty sure Thibs hates him. I've thought that a challenge trade of Towns for Giannis would be really entertaining, and help the league.

After that embarrassment of a game last night, his stock must be low right now. I really wouldn't want KAT on the Raps, but could we trade Poeltl and an ex-Knick (and future picks, not #9) for him? It would sure spice things up around here.

I came here to wonder the same, just for fun. Scottie going the other way? Not with Jak I'm sure. But Jak and RJ/IQ and picks seems too low for NY. Throw in Agbaji? No idea about the money either, I don't do trade machine stuff but I know Kat has a huge contract.

I would say KAT has passing skills and would thrive in Darko 's offense more than Thibs.

[tsherkin]

HE spaces the floor with those massive screens to. I still remember watching him and Fox do dribble handoffs that just were devastating.

Hell, yeah.

I have zero faith on Sabonis defensively, but he would be lethal offensively with a legit 3 point PG threat.

100%.

I’ll admit I hadn’t checked Sabonis’ 3pt shooting in awhile but just remembered he was shooting low 30s for years. Actually really surprised to see he’s been high 30s+ the last few years so I gladly accept my crow lol

Still don’t love the fit defensively but the improved shooting definitely lightens the opposition to it. Personally I don’t feel like he’s the piece that would put the team over the top so I’m not a huge fan on using our best assets to get him.

I agree that the defense is an issue, but "put the team over the top" has some different meanings, right? And if we can sub Mogbo in for him, and we have Scottie defending and some other guys, we can probably be good enough on D to be a quality team. We aren't winning a title with Sabonis, but if we win another title in the next 30 years, I'd be both shocked as hell and thrilled, so I don't really care about that anyway.

[Pointgod]

If we traded for Giannis we would prolly have to give up Barnes/Dick #9 as the main assets to get the talks started....How many more draft picks + players added will be up to what the Bucks ask for....Prolly 3-4 future first and one of Ochai/Walter/Mogbo added on top...

We would have the assets to make a follow up move if need be with IQ/Barrett/Yak/Other picks/ two of Ochai/Walter/Mogbo....a Ingram/Giannis duo becomes the best duo in the East next year...Even if we keep IQ/Barrett/Yak them 3 are pretty elite complementary guys to the elite Duo we would have....Giannis won with Middleton...Ingram is just as good if not better than him when healthy....

Also buy out options would become a thing + Vets maybe would come here on cheap free agent deals to shape out the roster and bench more...Heck maybe Lopez comes here on a cheap deal...Lots of possibilites

If Giannis trade ever becomes a possibility and Bucks accept a deal you have to take it and shape out the roster as you go ....Getting a player like Giannis in the door is just the first step...

If we’re willing to go into the tax we have access to the Full MLE and can bring Boucher back if Darko hasn’t burned that bridge. You have to trade Poeltl though and bring in a floor spacing big to really let Giannis flourish. But depending on who’s traded you can still fill out the depth if we’re willing to pay the tax.

[YogurtProducer]

If we traded for Giannis we would prolly have to give up Barnes/Dick #9 as the main assets to get the talks started....How many more draft picks + players added will be up to what the Bucks ask for....Prolly 3-4 future first and one of Ochai/Walter/Mogbo added on top...

We would have the assets to make a follow up move if need be with IQ/Barrett/Yak/Other picks/ two of Ochai/Walter/Mogbo....a Ingram/Giannis duo becomes the best duo in the East next year...Even if we keep IQ/Barrett/Yak them 3 are pretty elite complementary guys to the elite Duo we would have....Giannis won with Middleton...Ingram is just as good if not better than him when healthy....

Also buy out options would become a thing + Vets maybe would come here on cheap free agent deals to shape out the roster and bench more...Heck maybe Lopez comes here on a cheap deal...Lots of possibilites

If Giannis trade ever becomes a possibility and Bucks accept a deal you have to take it and shape out the roster as you go ....Getting a player like Giannis in the door is just the first step...

If we’re willing to go into the tax we have access to the Full MLE and can bring Boucher back if Darko hasn’t burned that bridge. You have to trade Poeltl though and bring in a floor spacing big to really let Giannis flourish. But depending on who’s traded you can still fill out the depth if we’re willing to pay the tax.

If you get Giannis you 100% are paying tax. You dont half ass it.

[ConSarnit]

Barnes value is not as high as Cade or Mobley, but I think it can definitely rebound in the right situation. Plus, he is not making 30% of the cap like those two for the next 5 seasons.

Barnes is clearly still viewed as the best player on the Raps. And the moment he is offered in the deal, it significantly narrows the competition from other teams. Then the Cavs, if interested need to offer Mobley, Rockets Amen, etc.

Keep in mind, when Masai made the Kawhi deal, he was sending out the player viewed as the best player on the Raps. Now he had given the Lowry/Derozan duo multiple playoff runs to prove whether they could make it happen. Maybe this time, he just doesn’t have that kind of patience.

It makes sense to offer Barnes. Giannis is not a short term option like Kawhi. And having a legit starting lineup around him would matter. With Barnes in the deal, they only need to offer smaller contracts like Gradey and Ochai to get to Giannis’s salary. Also, players more ready to contribute, and also young like Barnes would be appealing to the Bucks. For the Raps, they keep their starting lineup intact, just swapping Barnes for Giannis, and retain a cheap bench in Mogbo, Battle, Walter and Shead to stay below the 1st apron. If the lineup works, this team is locked in financially for 2 years. If it doesn’t, they have pieces to trade.

Also, offering young players that can contribute now (Barnes, Gradey & Ochai) probably means they could get away with offering less picks. I think 9th pick would need to go for sure, but maybe only one other first. Masai doesn’t like to give away FRPs. And FRPs from a team with Giannis will be of less interest to the Bucks, because clearly those will be low FRPs.

Honestly, I’m not really sure what Barnes value is across the league. He’s looking more like a #3 than he is a #1. He just came off a year where he was pretty much the worst volume scorer in the league. I could see some teams being high on him and others not. The luster is wearing off. I would think any team trading for him would have questions about his ceiling and if they would actually be getting value out of him when he’s now making $40m.

If I’m the Bucks I’m not very excited to build my future team around Barnes, Dick and the 9th pick. Given their lack of other assets it’s tough to see how the Bucks would build a competitive team around that roster. We’re having a hard enough time doing it and we’re starting from a much better position than they would be given their aging roster and low quality draft assets.

I think you are way too wrapped up in the statistical outcome. I made a post about how certain stats are being misused and over-emphasized that was locked because I was too negative about scotty. Which is very strange....because I was trying to make the point that these statistical outcomes (efficiency in particular) don't impact league wide perceptions to the degree that ppl assume.

All to say....scotty's value amongst GMs didn't take a nosedive because his efficiency nosedived last season.

Basketball isn't like baseball. In baseball you can count things that have relatively few variables. All other sports have too many variables to depend on stats alone.

How do you know this to be true?

I just don’t know how you can confidently say Barnes value is still high when it’s been 4 seasons of below average efficiency and he’s now entering his 25% max contract seasons.

There has to be some world in which some GM’s are not overly high on Barnes, at least so much as a centerpiece in a trade for an MVP.

[Sandman88]

So you'd take a top ten centre off the floor, so Giannis could play out of position?

How does it work otherwise? You want to take Barnes or Ingram out? I would think then they would obviously be shopping Poeltl for another backup C. Or draft one.

The spacing would be horrible. And I do not think that is out of position.

IQ
Ingram
Barnes
Giannis
Jakob

Spacing smasing, out the 5 best players on the court - IQ and Ingram can hit jumpers

Ingram is not a 2 and would get put on skates defensively

[StopitLeo]

Sabonis is such a bad fit.

Obv doesn’t space the floor and not a good defender.

Say what?

I'm with you on the defense part, but he was a nearly-42% shooter from 3 on over 2 attempts per game (almost exclusively above the break), and shot over 45% from 16-23 feet.

He definitely spaces the floor.

I’ll admit I hadn’t checked Sabonis’ 3pt shooting in awhile but just remembered he was shooting low 30s for years. Actually really surprised to see he’s been high 30s+ the last few years so I gladly accept my crow lol

Still don’t love the fit defensively but the improved shooting definitely lightens the opposition to it. Personally I don’t feel like he’s the piece that would put the team over the top so I’m not a huge fan on using our best assets to get him.

I don't think Sabonis raises the ceiling of this roster. We need an MVP tier guy like Giannis or an All-NBA talent (who is better than Barnes and Ingram) + Barnes and Ingram playing to their full potential.

[WuTang_CMB]

Rich paul 2 weeks ago on Giannis to TOR

https://youtu.be/L0HV9Exh8Ys?t=459

[Morris_Shatford]

I was excited till I read Doug Smith

[WaltFrazier]

Could the fact Doug has not been a Scottie fan be part of this?

I don't know if Masai ever uses Doug as a conduit to pave the way for a trade

[MiamiSPX]

Honestly, I’m not really sure what Barnes value is across the league. He’s looking more like a #3 than he is a #1. He just came off a year where he was pretty much the worst volume scorer in the league. I could see some teams being high on him and others not. The luster is wearing off. I would think any team trading for him would have questions about his ceiling and if they would actually be getting value out of him when he’s now making $40m.

If I’m the Bucks I’m not very excited to build my future team around Barnes, Dick and the 9th pick. Given their lack of other assets it’s tough to see how the Bucks would build a competitive team around that roster. We’re having a hard enough time doing it and we’re starting from a much better position than they would be given their aging roster and low quality draft assets.

I think you are way too wrapped up in the statistical outcome. I made a post about how certain stats are being misused and over-emphasized that was locked because I was too negative about scotty. Which is very strange....because I was trying to make the point that these statistical outcomes (efficiency in particular) don't impact league wide perceptions to the degree that ppl assume.

All to say....scotty's value amongst GMs didn't take a nosedive because his efficiency nosedived last season.

Basketball isn't like baseball. In baseball you can count things that have relatively few variables. All other sports have too many variables to depend on stats alone.

How do you know this to be true?

I just don’t know how you can confidently say Barnes value is still high when it’s been 4 seasons of below average efficiency and he’s now entering his 25% max contract seasons.

There has to be some world in which some GM’s are not overly high on Barnes, at least so much as a centerpiece in a trade for an MVP.

I think we can still dine out on Scottie's age, size, traditional counting stats, draft pedigree and ROY/A-S nod. There are probably still 15-20 GMs who think their team can fix him. I'd say we have another 1-2 years to dine out on that if he doesn't noticeably improve.