Has it not become overwhelmingly clear (even to management) it's time to blow this up?

[Johnny Bball]

How much more time do they need? 60 games? Cause apparently 46 games in the season isn't enough for you.

Can't beat the bucks without Gianis/Middleton, Hawks without Capela/Bogi, Celtics without Tatum, Wolves without Gobert/Towns. 3/4 of those teams were on back to backs as well.

Yea I'm the clueless one.

Time? You aren't getting it. Time is not going to change anything. This team is tanking intentionally. Or Nurse is incompetent. You pick. I don't know how he can become so bad and so stupid in a season though.

Tell me which is more likely or those two? I mean it's what you all wanted and now you're going to argue it's not happening? We both saw last night and the Bucks and the Wolves. But we seem to have a very different idea of why I guess?

I'll tell you what... if this isn't on purpose the last month, Nurse should be fired and the team should be blown up at the deadline (beyond trading GTJ who they now are forced to trade and FVV) because it does in fact suck. And if that doesn't happen, then you know what is going on for sure.

This team is NOT tanking intentionally. Masai is still evaluating and have not given the directive to Nurse to tank. They are still trying to win and failing. If they were tanking, Siakam wouldn't be 40 min in January, 43 min last night, and others like Koloko, Blanton and Flynn would be getting more.

As for your throwing shade on Nurse, he's the same coach last year when we won 48. Is it his fault that key players have regressed? Is it his fault others may be (as you allude) playing for their next contract? Why aren't we talking about Masai? FVV/GTJ had career years in 2022, at their highest trade value. Why did he do nothing knowing they'd be playing more selfish in their contract year?

Masai also didn't address the team's most glaring weaknesses in shooting and at Center. His reputed 6'9" experiment is failing. He knows we're still rebuilding but also trying to play to win (e.g., Thad trade for poorer draft position). He tries to rebuild the bench every year and failing. The roster is poorly constructed and we have a talent issue. That's on Masai, not Nurse.

Masai is still the best damn Raptors Prez we've ever had but if you're going to throw shade at Nurse, don't stop there.

MAkes it easier to be angry that way I guess.

Siakam is going to play big minutes no matter what if they aren't openly admitted they are tanking. Ok... call it tanking to get to the serious tanking. But either way I have not yet recieved one reason for the last three games weird decisions.. Those were his decisions that cost wins (not even talking abotu going back to Christmas). Not one valid reason. Either anyone explain it or Nurse has become clearly incometent. I don;t think he's incompetent either.

[Tortiglioni]

Bring back Barbara Bottini.

[Tripod]

Johnny is on some next level copium.

This team isn't losing on purpose, they're just sadly this incompetent now.

If they were tanking on purpose, Nick would be playing all the guys he has benched all season because he doesn't trust them.

They are just bad, make bad decisions, etc...

[HumbleRen]

Johnny is on some next level copium.

This team isn't losing on purpose, they're just sadly this incompetent now.

If they were tanking on purpose, Nick would be playing all the guys he has benched all season because he doesn't trust them.

They are just bad, make bad decisions, etc...

[traps#10]

Call me a a conspiracy theorist but the Raptors FO might have purposely handicapped the roster in hoping we don’t do well so they can get a high draft pick for this upcoming strong draft. I believe Masai even mentioned that it was a “rebuilding” season and that he even said we weren’t ready to compete even before the season started. Nurse also said a few weeks ago that the FO and him were on the same page on “what we need” for the upcoming trade deadline and that they were “on the same page” you can interpret that as Nurse and the FO are on board tanking this season in order top end talent is the upcoming draft. I can see Masai making this a throw away evaluation season and if true changes to the “core” need to happen, it would happen in next year’s deadline.

If this is the route, I just hope they don’t believe FVV should be part of their vision beyond this year but I truly believe they still regard FVV highly which is disappointing IMO.

[mtcan]

3 of these guys are first or second year players. 2 are 2nd rounders.

Answer these questions:

Please regale us with Pascal's 3pt shooting stats as a 2nd year player. I'd also like to know who you would have drafted instead of Banton or Koloko who would be helping us right now with shooting and ball handling. Please provide the names of these 2nd round players who are greatly contributing to their teams success, because surely there must have been better options for us?

I'm not going redo the last few drafts just for the sake an argument (although Jaden Hardy has looked really good when given more 20 minutes or more in Dallas/G-League)...but to make an example of the mindset our front office has towards personnel acquisitions. Free agent signings, drafted players, etc...the mindset of the front office seems to be: "I don't care that a player has no offensive talent or mindset because I can teach that. I care that they have ++wingspans and don't always get cooked on defence. We did it with Pascal so we can do it with anyone!" Let's admit...Pascal becoming the player he is...it's lightning in a bottle and you may not be able to repeat that with every guy you bring into the system.

This goes back to loading the roster with free agents like Stanley Johnson, Rondae Hollis-Jefferson, Deandre Bembry, etc. Are there guys in the draft that the front office passed up that could be or are really good players even though they don't fit the profile of what the Raptors are looking for as I described above? Absolutely. I agree that it might be too early to write off Banton and Koloko but on a team that is starved for shooting and scoring...you can't ignore what these guys can't currently give you.

This is vision 6-9.

In contrast, I look at how the Grizzlies have drafted over the last few years and they don't draft with a particular archetype of player/frame. They draft guys who can play...period. Desmond Bane and Dillon Brooks are playing huge starting roles. David Roddy has produced well when given minutes. Jon Konchar and Santi Aldama filled in as a starters when Brooks/Bane/JJJ have been injured and produced. David Roddy has produced when given minutes. Kenneth Lofton Jr. is an awesome pickup who seems to be able to score on anyone once he gets into the lane. NONE of these guys would fit the Raptors profile as a draft target...but in reality these guys are playing key roles on one of the league's best and most exciting teams (or are at least killing it in the G-League in Lofton's case).

Raptors front office had a chance to see if they could develop a roster full of Pascal Siakams and Kawhi Leonards from a bunch of dudes with ++wingspans only and so far it hasn't been the case.

You can't redo the past 2 drafts because it destroys your argument. Then you name a bunch of guys who were drafted BEFORE our picks.

David Roddy is a PF that has a 50% TS (terrible for any player, let alone a big), is averaging 6&3 and has rebound rate of <7% (not even in the top 200 for forwards). He is horrendous offensively. Please tell me how he'd help this team. Kenneth Lofton has played 24 TOTAL NBA minutes. These guys are not good (just like our recent draft picks). It's crazy that you are bringing them up as some type of evidence of our mistakes when neither of these guys should be in an NBA rotation.

Dillon Brooks was drafted after OG. OG is a more valuable player than Brooks. You're naming a bunch of MEM players who are either A) not good or B) we drafted a better player than them earlier in the draft. And when we missed on Bane we drafted a 6'0 point guard, which goes against your entire "6'9 vision" the FO is apparently locked into.

Also, please explain:

Flynn (6'0)
Svi (6'6, negative wingspan)
Brooks (6'3)
Jalen Harris (6'4)
Matt Thomas (6'4)
Terrence Davis (6'4)

All guys brought in around the same time as Stanley Johnson and RHJ. Oh wait, you conveniently forgot those guys because it doesn't fit your argument. "Longboi" only gets brought up because we drafted Scottie. Would you rather we had drafted Suggs?

This team drafts BPA. You're criticizing them because first and second year players (2 2nd rounders) aren't fully developed? Do you see how dumb that is? You're asking these guys to be Siakam when Siakam wasn't even close to the player he is today at a similar point in his career. You bring up Memphis, who is either #1 or #2 in drafting in the league. Guess who is #2 if they are #1? Us. we might even be #1.

So let's summarize: you think we are locked into team 6'9, yet we've signed/drafted numerous players who don't fit that mold. We are apparently failing at drafting, but only when compared to possibly the best drafting team in the league (who might not even be better than us). And you expect our 1st and 2nd year players to be fully developed all-stars by now. Do I have this right?

How many times has the term "positionless basketball" been thrown around by the front office? How many times in the last year have you heard guys on the team and front office make reference to the fact that on this roster...all the guys are the same size and that there is no center because...positionless basketball? Thad asking Fred who the center is and Fred saying shrugging and saying that's how things are here. Masai literally laughed off a question during one of his press conferences in the last year making light of the fact that most of the guys basically play the same position. Their words...not mine. Their roster construction. Their personnel decisions.

Let's talk about the current roster instead of a bunch of guys who were brought in for a cup of tea and didn't last because they aren't skilled enough and also don't fit the mold. Flynn doesn't play. Fred...legacy status. Gary probably isn't here in the long term. The rest of the guys are mostly 6'8 and 6'9 dudes...and they all have ++wingspans. None of them are known for being knock down shooters on a consistent basis and most of them were non-shooters at the draft or when acquired. I give them credit for being better but being better doesn't make up for the fact that this is the second worst shooting % team in the league. Offensive ability was NOT a selection criteria for them being brought onto this team. Length and defensive potential were clearly prioritized.

Don't get triggered at me. This team as constructed isn't working and there are hard questions that need to be asked and hard truths that need to be faced. I'm happy to give credit where credit is due when there is success but at this point, we can all see that something in this team's construction is flawed. It is extremely evident when you see where we rank in the league when it comes to shooting and half-court offence.

[Prestige]

Lots of conspiracy theories here. The likely issue is the team simply failing to live up to the front office’s expectations, rather than some elaborate 5d chess strategy where they are intentionally tanking and playing to win at the same time under the cover of a retool.

[KL78192020]

How much more time do they need? 60 games? Cause apparently 46 games in the season isn't enough for you.

Can't beat the bucks without Gianis/Middleton, Hawks without Capela/Bogi, Celtics without Tatum, Wolves without Gobert/Towns. 3/4 of those teams were on back to backs as well.

Yea I'm the clueless one.

Its being intentionally obtuse to think league improvements of a couple/3 teams, where the players do get subtracted off other teams making other games/teams easier, but presuming 4-6 games a year, accounts for the difference between 48-34 and 34-48?

It’s just bad logic.

There is the same/better personnel. And yet here we are, everyone thinking this is a 30-52 team again. What…they just overachieved last year at a phenomenal rate? They can get there by tanking maybe.

But that’s going to cost them players this time.

Haha somehow I am a homer for pointing out that we are now 2-9 in 1 possession games, and our NRTG is still indicative of a team that is 5-6 wins better than our current record shows.

Somehow simply posting some facts here is being a homer. Im not saying being .500 or whatever is good (having the ability to tweak and add a lottery pick to this core seems like a great problem to have).

You're still hanging out could've, should've, would've like Golden State fans saying they would've won if KD/Klay were healthy. Just accept reality for what it is. Every fanboy makes up excuses for what could've been. But the reality is in front of your eyes.

The roster overachieved last year, now back to reality. This team has been terrible 2/3 last years.

[RoyceDa59]

I’m with you dude, time for a proper rebuild. The retooling around Siakam post Kawhi was the right move at the time but hasn’t materialized in time.

Keep Barnes, Koloko and sell the rest.

[YogurtProducer]

Its being intentionally obtuse to think league improvements of a couple/3 teams, where the players do get subtracted off other teams making other games/teams easier, but presuming 4-6 games a year, accounts for the difference between 48-34 and 34-48?

It’s just bad logic.

There is the same/better personnel. And yet here we are, everyone thinking this is a 30-52 team again. What…they just overachieved last year at a phenomenal rate? They can get there by tanking maybe.

But that’s going to cost them players this time.

Haha somehow I am a homer for pointing out that we are now 2-9 in 1 possession games, and our NRTG is still indicative of a team that is 5-6 wins better than our current record shows.

Somehow simply posting some facts here is being a homer. Im not saying being .500 or whatever is good (having the ability to tweak and add a lottery pick to this core seems like a great problem to have).

Current record is a better indicator of how good the team is instead of NRTG in 1 possession games. Why work backwards to force an illusion that ends up countering a tangible result?

Because it’s the front offices job to know where we’re at, and I guarantee you they look a lot deeper than “20-27” to make their conclusions.

There’s reasons why we can go into games like today and still be betting favs even with OG out. Even Vegas still likes this team against a lot of teams because they know we’re not a typical 20 win team 50 games in or whatever.

Like we’re certainly a more talented and better team than the 20-26 wizards.

I’m not saying we’re a great team, hell not even saying we’re good, but we’re not a typical .426 team.

[YogurtProducer]

Its being intentionally obtuse to think league improvements of a couple/3 teams, where the players do get subtracted off other teams making other games/teams easier, but presuming 4-6 games a year, accounts for the difference between 48-34 and 34-48?

It’s just bad logic.

There is the same/better personnel. And yet here we are, everyone thinking this is a 30-52 team again. What…they just overachieved last year at a phenomenal rate? They can get there by tanking maybe.

But that’s going to cost them players this time.

Haha somehow I am a homer for pointing out that we are now 2-9 in 1 possession games, and our NRTG is still indicative of a team that is 5-6 wins better than our current record shows.

Somehow simply posting some facts here is being a homer. Im not saying being .500 or whatever is good (having the ability to tweak and add a lottery pick to this core seems like a great problem to have).

You're still hanging out could've, should've, would've like Golden State fans saying they would've won if KD/Klay were healthy. Just accept reality for what it is. Every fanboy makes up excuses for what could've been. But the reality is in front of your eyes.

The roster overachieved last year, now back to reality. This team has been terrible 2/3 last years.

GSW fans are right, they would’ve won with KD/Klay. No one could beat that team. That’s just not an argument worth having.

Your reality is 20-27 with no further discussion. At least mine has some data and reasoning behind it. So who’s outside reality again?

[ruckus]

I wonder if/when front office politics will start to enter the discussion.

Masai and Bobby combined probably make upwards of $20mil a year. I'm sure there are those on the board (Rogers) that would be more than happy to jettison that salary and they're just looking for an excuse to do it. Multiple losing seasons could be that excuse.

If Masai and Bobby have to start making decisions to keep their jobs instead of doing whats right for the team, we'll be in real trouble.

[anotherhomer]

I wonder if/when front office politics will start to enter the discussion.

Masai and Bobby combined probably make upwards of $20mil a year. I'm sure there are those on the board (Rogers) that would be more than happy to jettison that salary and they're just looking for an excuse to do it. Multiple losing seasons could be that excuse.

If Masai and Bobby have to start making decisions to keep their jobs instead of doing whats right for the team, we'll be in real trouble.

Thats why I said Ed rogers is a factor

[ItsDanger]

Read on Twitter

I'm sure it filled up more, purchased ticket doesn't equal filled seat.

Read on Twitter

And it begins.

[OakleyDokely]

sellouts will never be an automatic for the raptors or leafs at the prices they're charging now.

[ruckus]

Read on Twitter

I'm sure it filled up more, purchased ticket doesn't equal filled seat.

Read on Twitter

And it begins.

Maybe yes, maybe no. All day yesterday I saw threats of a polar vortex hitting Toronto on all my feeds and there's nothing that keeps Torontonians home more than the threat of a little snow.

I will also say that the season seat holders I know have been having a difficult time offloading their tickets for the games they can't attend.

[ItsDanger]

Read on Twitter

I'm sure it filled up more, purchased ticket doesn't equal filled seat.

Read on Twitter

And it begins.

Maybe yes, maybe no. All day yesterday I saw threats of a polar vortex hitting Toronto on all my feeds and there's nothing that keeps Torontonians home more than the threat of a little snow.

I will also say that the season seat holders I know have been having a difficult time offloading their tickets for the games they can't attend.

Polar vortex? This isn't Los Angeles. You're reaching. The facts will be clear after this road trip.

[M3tro]

That championship hangover is finally starting to wear off...

We're much closer to the basement than the penthouse.