The Tank Debate Thread

22haytham22 · Post #41 » by **22haytham22** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:58 am

I am in but sadly it doesn't seem as though we are tanking as MU stated he doesn't believe in tanking and that it may take up to a year to asses the team...

TheGoodDoctor · Post #42 » by **TheGoodDoctor** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:00 am

I wish, I really do.

But Masai is going to try and remake the Nuggets

22haytham22 · Post #43 » by **22haytham22** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:01 am

EG73 wrote:
VintageVince wrote:Enjoy the 9th spot or a first round loss in the playoff, and a treadmill team for years to come.

Enjoy the 12-15th spot and missing playoff by many games every year. I would enjoy more a treadmill 42-40 team than a treadmill 30-52 team.

Enjoy the only interesting time in the season: the lottery (with so great results in the last few years, including 2013 !)

Enjoy having overpaid 'role players' because better players are not interested to play for a team with a reputation of chronic losing.

your statement has so much fail in it

EG73 · Post #44 » by **EG73** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:01 am

I think that for long term, tanking is doing more harm than good.

Harm: losing culture, bad reputation. F.A. not interested to play for the team. Players want to leave. Having to overpay. No desire to have success other than having a better next contract. Losing fans, sponsors, TV contracts, etc.

Good: drafting a great player ??? probability of success is low

In order to have a successful tanking (if definition is championship contender), you need ALL the following criteria :

- be really bad, or really unlucky with injuries (would you renew your season tickets ?)

- being lucky with lottery (check maths, lottery history !)

- having franchise players in the draft (not even every year)

- make the right choice

- the player stays healthy (Oden, B. Roy)

- the player wants to stay with the team (Bosh, VC, LBJ, etc)

So IMHO the probability of having a very successful tanking is very low.
Spurs won a championship with the franchise player they drafted (the 6 criteria were respected). But they are the exception, and this is not even the only reason they won championships.

macro6 · Post #45 » by **macro6** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:02 am

My dream is the Raps get 8th seed and face miami heat.

BO55 · Post #46 » by **BO55** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:03 am

If we are GUARANTEED 1st
Hell yeah why not? But we ain't
Don't wanna set ourselves for more disappointment
Check out the top 20 big board

http://nbadraft.net/2014-nba-draft-top-20-prospects

I wouldn't sleep on the other guy who got picked up by Kansas... Wayne Selden.

scopy · Post #47 » by **scopy** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:09 am

Chevy, I was happy to see this thread because I wanted to avoid the tanking comments for a bit. Looks like they can't resist though, too bad.

Tanking may eventually happen but not until this group / coach fails miserably, so lets embrace it until that happens.

Lowry: Like TZ, I like this guy. And I think he will have a great season this year because of his contract. However, as a professional, he should have been in shape this year, but I guess we will give him a flyer because of injuries and he played better towards the end of the year.

Gay: Think he is going to play with a chip on his shoulder. Think he is relishing being the man for a team and not sharing the spotlight with Gasol and Randolph. Plus he's never been an allstar, I think he wants to prove it to the league that he is one. A motivated Gay will be fun to watch.

JV: Masai has been clear to develop young talent and is big on JV. There's no way that Casey benches this kid in the 4th quarter anymore. I think he will have his fair share of double doubles.

Derozan: Don't expect much here to be honest. He's been steady and showing marginal improvement each year. I guess becoming a better slasher to draw more fouls and developing a consistent three all while ncreasing his shooting % overall might be too much to ask.

Amir: will be Amir, love his game as it is. Sucked losing Ed Davis, but at least we have Psycho T to back him up and provide some quality defence.

Ross: The sleeper on the team in my opinion. I think the kid has talent, I like how easy he shoots the jumper, just needs to work on his shot selection and not rush it. Will be interesting to see how Nurse can develop this guy this year.

Novak: We know what he can do, hopefully we can design an offence to take advantage of it.

Go Raps.

EG73 · Post #48 » by **EG73** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:09 am

22haytham22 wrote:
EG73 wrote:
VintageVince wrote:Enjoy the 9th spot or a first round loss in the playoff, and a treadmill team for years to come.

Enjoy the 12-15th spot and missing playoff by many games every year. I would enjoy more a treadmill 42-40 team than a treadmill 30-52 team.

Enjoy the only interesting time in the season: the lottery (with so great results in the last few years, including 2013 !)

Enjoy having overpaid 'role players' because better players are not interested to play for a team with a reputation of chronic losing.

your statement has so much fail in it

Please explain. It is because of the quality of my English ?

Of course I'm anti-tanking. See my second post (just after yours).
I think we should forget the idea of ' championship or nothing'. Statistically (and 'realistically'), the probability of championship is very low. It's a little bit like having a baseball player try the homerun at every pitch: he will get some homeruns, but will be striked out 90% of time.

Edit: PS: if you disagree with me, please look at your signature.

sanity · Post #49 » by **sanity** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:15 am

The misconception people have about tanking is that outside of the #1 pick there is no talent worth sucking for. That is not the case in this draft, and really, the higher you draft, the better your chances are at getting a talented player

HEDOBALL · Post #50 » by **HEDOBALL** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:16 am

If this is the official thread, sign me up.

I'm on board with about 75% of the roster. I don't believe Masai is done and I'm excited to see what he pulls out of his sleeve next.

This franchise officially has found it's one true Il Mago.

LoveMyRaps · Post #51 » by **LoveMyRaps** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:21 am

RedX wrote:I really think this should be locked... idk what this thread is supposed to accomplish... the team isn't tanking...

We really think you should shut up and leave.

Sincerely, TANKNATION

Chuck Newhouse · Post #52 » by **Chuck Newhouse** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:22 am

TANKNATION wrote:Pro tankers come here. this is the perfect time for us to tank. this is the best draft in a decade and teams realize this, hence why more teams than ever are doing it this season. this roster is a first round exit... Tank nation, operation wiggins!

Don't you think you're thread is deserving of a proper definition of what exactly you mean by tanking (in detail) and what you're expected outcome might be (worst case scenario to best case)?

IvanIV · Post #53 » by **IvanIV** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:23 am

sanity wrote: and really, the higher you draft, the better your chances are at getting a talented player

I never would have thought it possible, but there really seems to be people who apparently don't get this. Just take a look at my sig.

Chuck Newhouse · Post #54 » by **Chuck Newhouse** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:24 am

People forget that when there is a great draft glass that many other teams also get good players...many teams that are already better than us.

TheRealBlizzy · Post #55 » by **TheRealBlizzy** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:25 am

EG73 wrote:I think that for long term, tanking is doing more harm than good.

Harm: losing culture, bad reputation. F.A. not interested to play for the team. Players want to leave. Having to overpay. No desire to have success other than having a better next contract. Losing fans, sponsors, TV contracts, etc.

Nobody wants to play for us anyway, raptors have a losing culture already, are the butt of all jokes, TV contracts do not matter at all because the TV stations own the team, sponsors are just leafs sponsors carried over (want to advertise at leafs? pay for some raptors signage to get in) .. everyone already comes here to play for a better contract or comes because we overpay, thats it.. even stevey nash turned us down for less money!

Good: drafting a great player ??? probability of success is low

There are 5 franchise prospects in this draft. check 2003.

In order to have a successful tanking (if definition is championship contender), you need ALL the following criteria :

- be really bad, or really unlucky with injuries (would you renew your season tickets ?)

we are pretty bad.. and have been unlucky with injuries often.

- being lucky with lottery (check maths, lottery history !)

you can also finish 13th and win it, but 25% chance is just for the first pick, lets say we did have the first pick, the chance we end up maintaining our position in the top5 picks is above 90%.

- having franchise players in the draft (not even every year)

Well hey, there are FIVE this year!

- make the right choice

if you have faith in the gm to rebuild, you better have faith they can draft too? also much easier 5 prospects basically cant miss and one is a hometown superhero

- the player stays healthy (Oden, B. Roy)

our whole team could die tonight, so this is pointless

- the player wants to stay with the team (Bosh, VC, LBJ, etc)

no player on our current team would like to stay more then ANDREW WIGGINS FROM TORONTO!

So IMHO the probability of having a very successful tanking is very low.
Spurs won a championship with the franchise player they drafted (the 6 criteria were respected). But they are the exception, and this is not even the only reason they won championships.

kmatrixg · Post #56 » by **kmatrixg** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:26 am

Dude, what was the point of making this thread? The team isn't tanking, so who gives a flying ****?

Turbo_Zone · Post #57 » by **Turbo_Zone** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:29 am

I respect the re-toolers.

After all, we all want the Raps to do well long-term. We just have different visions on how to get it done.

We're all big-time fans (which is why we're getting so viscous with each other I imagine!)

With that said, I am so pro-tank (for just one year!) I don't know what to say anymore!

- Sitting through year-after-year seeing Top-Tier talent get selected by others, then we choose like, 7th...
JUST out of range of the stars

- Val is proof enough. The best thing on our team came from the draft.

- Yeah, the last place team rarely wins. However, the last place team can do NO WORSE than what, 4th?
(I've started watching the top picks for 2014, 4th is a beautiful place to be)

This is what you're getting at around 4th in this draft:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ-vLcOMKX8[/youtube]

Don't like him? There's others...

- SOMEONE'S gonna get wiggins. I'd like to be the team with the greatest odds, thank you very much.

- Sitting through a year of losing is too painful? What the heck-a-roo have people been watching the last decade?!

- Treadmill is death. 1 starter gets injured "going for it" and we are treadmill with lame pick. I know it's just a scenario but it's plausible (see: past)

- Just want ONE more star to pair with Val. Once Val's rookie contract is up, all our crap is off the books and we give him that cash. The other star is rising? We have time to plan for it.

Hell, who knows how the future will play out.

But if Masai is doing well with BC's Garbage, imagine what he could do at the 2014 lottery armed with our picks for the next few years, the Knicks in 2016 and some room under the cap.

akakalakin · Post #58 » by **akakalakin** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:29 am

the tank is dead, get over it

UneducatedFan86 · Post #59 » by **UneducatedFan86** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:32 am

I just don't see the big deal with us tanking this year. Sure, there are never any guarantees with drafts, but the 2014 draft is so deep that even if you fall back to 5/6/7 you have a great chance of getting an all-star talent. Our core is pretty young..one year isn't going to set us back. The talent we'd get back would still be able to grow with the rest of the team.

Yes, if we wanted to get some more draft picks, we'd have to trade the likes of Lowry/Gay/DeRozan. Yet, at the end of the day, we still have Valanacinuas, Ross, Acy and to a lesser extent Amir, as a very young and athletic core. Lowry is an expiring and there is no guarantee he'll be here after this season. Gay has two years left and if we continue to be a middle of the pack type team..there is no guarantee he'll stay either. Plus, they are both going to look to get paid and they both aren't getting younger.

If I thought we were in a better position or had a chance to really compete, I wouldn't be "pro-tank", but the Raptors aren't there. Our bench is not any better than last year. As bad as Bargnani was..Novak isn't a better player than him. We have a very unproven backup PG, who will likely end up being our starting PG a few times this season. Psycho T...is...mediocre. Gray..will still get killed by the younger and faster backup C's.

Basically, the way I see it, everything will have to go right for us to just make it into the 7th or 8th spot. Then, that means facing the likes of Miami, Brooklyn and Indiana..whose starting 5 are better than ours and their bench is much much better than ours. Yes, will get 2, maybe 3, home playoff games, but what does that get us? A low draft pick and we'll still be nearly capped out next offseason by the time we resign Lowry. If we don't resign Lowry...we will be in the hunt for a new starting PG...and that might not work out.

Sigh...I just don't see the positives...maybe someone who is against tanking can help me understand. What the big gain is for losing in the first round of the playoffs (If we even get there)? Everyone who said that Ujiri was able to pull off a major retool and kept Denver competitive is forgetting..he gave up one of the leagues best SF (to a very desperate team) and got a bunch of younger talent back and other assets(picks). Plus, that Denver team was a better overall team than we are currently. The retool here will either have to be through FA (which there hasn't been a big push of), the draft (yet to be seen), or we will end up having to make a trade.

TheRealBlizzy · Post #60 » by **TheRealBlizzy** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:32 am

Turbo_Zone wrote:I respect the re-toolers.

After all, we all want the Raps to do well long-term. We just have different visions on how to get it done.

We're all big-time fans (which is why we're getting so viscous with each other I imagine!)

With that said, I am so pro-tank (for just one year!) I don't know what to say anymore!

- Sitting through year-after-year seeing Top-Tier talent get selected by others, then we choose like, 7th...
JUST out of range of the stars

- Val is proof enough. The best thing on our team came from the draft.

- Yeah, the last place team rarely wins. However, the last place team can do NO WORSE than what, 4th?
(I've started watching the top picks for 2014, 4th is a beautiful place to be)

This is what you're getting at around 4th in this draft:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ-vLcOMKX8[/youtube]

Don't like him? There's others...

- SOMEONE'S gonna get wiggins. I'd like to be the team with the greatest odds, thank you very much.

- Sitting through a year of losing is too painful? What the heck-a-roo have people been watching the last decade?!

- Treadmill is death. 1 starter gets injured "going for it" and we are treadmill with lame pick. I know it's just a scenario but it's plausible (see: past)

- Just want ONE more star to pair with Val. Once Val's rookie contract is up, all our crap is off the books and we give him that cash. The other star is rising? We have time to plan for it.

Hell, who knows how the future will play out.

But if Masai is doing well with BC's Garbage, imagine what he could do at the 2014 lottery armed with our picks for the next few years, the Knicks in 2016 and some room under the cap.

This times 10000000x.

I don't see what they see at all, and don't see how they can argue against this rookie crop.

Which path do you support for 2013-14?