JV with a whopping 47 pts allowed vs. Phoenix

[CoachD]

When will people learn that Casey is the reason JV drops all the time? He's stated multiple times over the years that they like to keep JV as close to the paint as possible defensively, even if it means allowing an open mid range shot. Maybe if our guards learned how to either A: Not die on screens or B: Just go under and at least get a semi-contest, this wouldn't be a problem

100% true

This comes DIRECTLY from the Thibs book on p and r coverage and has been in place in Toronto since the first season of Casey and Sterner running the D.

People act like JV is too slow / lazy / unwilling to go hedge hard or trap etc without understanding how the ICE or BLUE coverage is designed

We started icing sideline PNR two seasons ago.

I would really like to see one quote from the team that says JV shall never hedge and will always drop too far back, because I gave never seen it. In fact I’ve seen him hedge. Our bigs and JV do ice the sideline pnr. But ICE has nothing to do with the high pick and roll which is the problem here.

Sorry but this just looks like its just becoming another excuse for JV. Like people are trying to say “its not his fault he’s bad at defending the pnr, it’s the coaches”? It’s not the coaches fault he’s damn slow right?

They started running their version of ICE in 2011 when Casey and Sterner left Dallas and came to Toronto together. At that time, they weren't EXCLUSIVELY using it, but I attended coaching clinics that season and they introduced the concept (which I hated at the time) and then they started running it in games. By 2012, it was FULLY integrated.

Does that mean they will NEVER hedge or trap or do anything else? No of course not. EVERY NBA team has anywhere from 4-6 schemes they run against ball screens depending on people playing D and attributes of the offensive players.

No team fully relies on ONE P&R coverage, but Toronto is most comfortable running the drop back and protecting rim when JV is on the floor

[Johnny Bball]

100% true

This comes DIRECTLY from the Thibs book on p and r coverage and has been in place in Toronto since the first season of Casey and Sterner running the D.

People act like JV is too slow / lazy / unwilling to go hedge hard or trap etc without understanding how the ICE or BLUE coverage is designed

We started icing sideline PNR two seasons ago.

I would really like to see one quote from the team that says JV shall never hedge and will always drop too far back, because I gave never seen it. In fact I’ve seen him hedge. Our bigs and JV do ice the sideline pnr. But ICE has nothing to do with the high pick and roll which is the problem here.

Sorry but this just looks like its just becoming another excuse for JV. Like people are trying to say “its not his fault he’s bad at defending the pnr, it’s the coaches”? It’s not the coaches fault he’s damn slow right?

They started running their version of ICE in 2011 when Casey and Sterner left Dallas and came to Toronto together. At that time, they weren't EXCLUSIVELY using it, but I attended coaching clinics that season and they introduced the concept (which I hated at the time) and then they started running it in games. By 2012, it was FULLY integrated.

Does that mean they will NEVER hedge or trap or do anything else? No of course not. EVERY NBA team has anywhere from 4-6 schemes they run against ball screens depending on people playing D and attributes of the offensive players.

No team fully relies on ONE P&R coverage, but Toronto is most comfortable running the drop back and protecting rim when JV is on the floor

Im not sure what you saw there, and they may have had something they discussed, but if this team iced the sideline pnr in 2012 to 2015 I didn’t see it. People were posting that we needed to copy Thibs and start icing the PNR precisely BECAUSE it would help JV. I especially remember DHackett making this point often. We adopted that part of Thibs Bulls defence 2 years ago.

I’m saying this to be crystal clear, JV is bad at defending the PNR and it is not the fault of this staff. They have done everything they can.


Edit; 2015 and 2016season. Poor article and terrible video examples (waste of time, don’t bother) but the date is correct. http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/2017/02/08/raptors-playbook-ice-defense/

[JN]

The inconsistency in blame is amusing.

[Red_Claw]

You should do the same analysis with Cousins, specifically in last nights game agains't Milwaukee. Otherwise, this thread should GTFO.

[HankMoody69]

Que ?

[PhilBlackson]

LOL Casey is not the reason JV drops all the time...JV is.

When Serge plays the 5, he either hedges hard or switches. JV doesn't because he's fat/slow and can't recover.

[TerryTate]

This is just a dumb thread......

How many of those points did you blame on JV because Lowry couldn't fight through the screens or let his man blow by him or gamble for the steal??? I saw it a NUMBER of times last night. I'm not including some of the blown coverages by DD or Ibaka watching PHX go up for the layup.

It's a team game. I digress that a number of points allowed ARE on JV, but I know that a lot of it is due to blown coverage's from other teammates

[karting_tigo]

Please let us know when you have been hired to review game film by a professional sports franchise.

[SalamiNcheese]

We know JV is a defensive liability. I don't know why people are arguing that. We know he sucks on D. It didn't matter tonight because we were playing one of the worst teams in the league on a 2nd night of a back to back without there best player.

Our offense was better and we coasted this game to victory. But yes JV's defense was bad but his offense and the rest of the starters offense was better.

[Rapcity_11]

When will people learn that Casey is the reason JV drops all the time? He's stated multiple times over the years that they like to keep JV as close to the paint as possible defensively, even if it means allowing an open mid range shot. Maybe if our guards learned how to either A: Not die on screens or B: Just go under and at least get a semi-contest, this wouldn't be a problem

It is amazing. Some people actually think that the players not the coaches decide what defensive schemes to play. And those same people also think that having the slowest player in the roster chase faster players 20-25 feet from the hoop is a great strategy.

Casey is the reason JV drops all the time. But the reason Casey has JV drop all the time is because he’s utterly hopeless doing anything else. It’s not like Casey even has a choice.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

wow, Casey let in 109 points

here's the proof: the accumulation of points Suns players scored in the box score.

I should start a thread about that because I hate Casey.

[Rapcity_11]

You should do the same analysis with Cousins, specifically in last nights game agains't Milwaukee. Otherwise, this thread should GTFO.

Cousins is a pathetic defender for large stretches. Just like JV. Happy now?

[Lukeem]

We started icing sideline PNR two seasons ago.

I would really like to see one quote from the team that says JV shall never hedge and will always drop too far back, because I gave never seen it. In fact I’ve seen him hedge. Our bigs and JV do ice the sideline pnr. But ICE has nothing to do with the high pick and roll which is the problem here.

Sorry but this just looks like its just becoming another excuse for JV. Like people are trying to say “its not his fault he’s bad at defending the pnr, it’s the coaches”? It’s not the coaches fault he’s damn slow right?

They started running their version of ICE in 2011 when Casey and Sterner left Dallas and came to Toronto together. At that time, they weren't EXCLUSIVELY using it, but I attended coaching clinics that season and they introduced the concept (which I hated at the time) and then they started running it in games. By 2012, it was FULLY integrated.

Does that mean they will NEVER hedge or trap or do anything else? No of course not. EVERY NBA team has anywhere from 4-6 schemes they run against ball screens depending on people playing D and attributes of the offensive players.

No team fully relies on ONE P&R coverage, but Toronto is most comfortable running the drop back and protecting rim when JV is on the floor

Im not sure what you saw there, and they may have had something they discussed, but if this team iced the sideline pnr in 2012 to 2015 I didn’t see it. People were posting that we needed to copy Thibs and start icing the PNR precisely BECAUSE it would help JV. I especially remember DHackett making this point often. We adopted that part of Thibs Bulls defence 2 years ago.

I’m saying this to be crystal clear, JV is bad at defending the PNR and it is not the fault of this staff. They have done everything they can.

hoping i can disagree slighlty without starting a fight

jv is a bad pnr defender... within our defense he is the weakest link. last couple years its been atrocious at times .

i do think he has made imorovements and is passable now. I do not think systems is the major problem, there might be some adjustments that should be made but none of that other stuff matters if we do not hold players accountable.

it is really hard to tell at times what specifcally the raps are trying to run when its obvious multiple players are out of position.

the raps have had many plays where
-big plays low and we do not fight over screen
-big hedges or traps 3 off ball players do not move
-big switches on screened doesnt recover

jv again is often at fault but as a team we need to get better. PNR is jvs biggest weakness. if we didnt have jv we would have someone else in there who also has a weakness and teams would figure out how to attack that.

basketball is a game of runs... the season holds true to this as well

the best teams are the ones that are able to adapt the quickest and most - hiding their weaknesses and exploiting their strengths

JV needs to keep improving more than anyone on defense. but if he can make slight imorovements with everyone else we can negate this weakness as a team and be a dangerous team going forward



throwing this out again... probably because i doubt it lasts too long

starters from highest to lowest 3pt %

val
og
ibaka
lowry
derozan


by end of the year id bet jv is 4th on that list but still settling above/ around 350

that coupled with his size strength and inside skills makes for a lot of potential in this lineup

[vini_vidi_vici]

Just a cpl weeks ago VanWest was applauded for his thread about JVs influence in Wins (or something to that effect), a cpl weeks later hes just another JV "hater". RGM in a nutshell.

[verysalt]

do me a favour and do a defensive break down of the knicks game when jv was sent to the bench and the knicks went on a 20-0 run.

That's against the narrative. Don't break the rules.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Ridiculous thread. I'm a jv hater but if you need to do all this research 2 hours after the game to dis credit JV. You gotta reevaluate you're life

This is coming from someone has 30 000 posts in almost 3 years lol

Disagree completely - he puts in some time into writing up an actual valuable piece of original analysis here which is infinitely better use of his time (and my time reading) than the 30 000 low quality posts you've made.

These kinds of threads are exactly the type of thing we need to encourage, and the type of original content that this board is seeing less and less of.

I don't think it adds value to the board, honestly. JV played well, was crucial to the victory last night by a number of metrics. Fine tooth combing his miscues on a night where the team dominated when he was on the floor just perpetuates the scapegoating syndrome this board has. He's an awful defender. We don't need another write-up to prove that. We have years of data. Now it's just spiralled into some dumb conversation about defensive strategy and the usual suspects are all involved. Just enjoy the win.

[Clementine64]

Just a cpl weeks ago VanWest was applauded for his thread about JVs influence in Wins (or something to that effect), a cpl weeks later hes just another JV "hater". RGM in a nutshell.

Clearly you haven't been paying attention. VanWest has been bashing JV in every thread and any topic for ahwile now. For me he's lost all credibility when you do that.

[flipside21]

This seems like a very very poorly conceived manner in which to quantify defensive impact / liability in isolation. You would need to have this breakdown at hand for all other players to really understand how they stack up.

Without a baseline of accountable points which reflects how many people were involved in defending each bucket scored, there is no way to really understand how a player relates to average or expectations.

I am sure JV is a defensive liability but the logic of "20/10 doesn't fix 47 points allowed" doesn't work unless you are giving JV credit as being the sole person responsible for stopping a score on any play in which he is involved...

[dagger]

I get that some fans aren't going to like this thread but given how much internet ink we've all spilled discussing JV I thought it would be interesting to do a play by play analysis of his made baskets against. I can't recall seeing anyone do that before. If no one finds it valuable...oh well, it was only an hour of my time I'll never get back lol.

I get the desire to provoke discussion, but let's be realistic. Yesterday, the Raptors were better with him on than off. Right now, everyone is playing offence and slacking a bit on D. The closeouts on Daniels last night were lame, and he was killing it from the three point arc. But in the final defensive play, DeRozan who maybe puts 10 pc of his energy into defence, summoned up a great defensive stand - proving he can do it when he wants to. If you want to discuss JV's D, or the second unit's overall play - they were the ones giving up comfortable leads last night - wait until we play a quality opponent again where defence and a high expenditure of energy is necessary. Playing these sub-500 teams, the Raptors are basically relying on lots of offence and just enough D to get wins.

[Buff]

And here I go... agreeing???

I don't know about the analysis, but last night I thought JV was horrendous defensively. He let Monroe score WAY more than he usually does and let them get a bunch of ORebs that he usually gets. But considering he had been incredibly good on D on the past few games and that he basically won us the game last night with an O board...

I think we can agree to give him a pass?