Tank World Order (2.0)

[canada_dry]

All the tank talk is dumb. We arent that bad even with a lowry trade. U guys must have skipped this part of the article...

"Toronto does not appear interested in rebuilding. You don't rebuild after paying a combined $157 million to VanVleet and OG Anunoby the summer after inking Pascal Siakam to a $130 million deal. You retool."

We aren't rebuilding. We r retooling. Theres a difference. A big difference.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[Steelo Green]

All the tank talk is dumb. We arent that bad even with a lowry trade. U guys must have skipped this part of the report...

"Toronto does not appear interested in rebuilding. You don't rebuild after paying a combined $157 million to VanVleet and OG Anunoby the summer after inking Pascal Siakam to a $130 million deal. You retool."

We aren't rebuilding. We r retooling. Theres a difference. The fanbase needs to be more nuanced.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

How much did Golden State pay Steph when they tanked?

How about San Antonio to Robinson when he could have come back and made a playoff run?

Again - everyone here has said this team is likely a low playoff seed, though I do think without Kyle they might be on the outside looking in. What does that accomplish exactly? Being a 7-8 seed or playing in the play in tourney?

Point is, a one year tank to get a star level talent which you won't get via signing, which would gut the team via trade, isn't a crazy proposition.

Not sure what nuance you are looking for considering you didn't even read what the discussion has been about.

Fact is, you need a superstar, many times even two, to win a title, and we don't have one, or any real avenue of getting a second. The teams that are trading for stars tend to already have one superstar in place, Brooklyn had two.

I thought post Kawhi everyone would have realized without a superstar you have no contender aspirations, but I guess not.

[canada_dry]

.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[canada_dry]

All the tank talk is dumb. We arent that bad even with a lowry trade. U guys must have skipped this part of the report...

"Toronto does not appear interested in rebuilding. You don't rebuild after paying a combined $157 million to VanVleet and OG Anunoby the summer after inking Pascal Siakam to a $130 million deal. You retool."

We aren't rebuilding. We r retooling. Theres a difference. The fanbase needs to be more nuanced.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

How much did Golden State pay Steph when they tanked?

How about San Antonio to Robinson when he could have come back and made a playoff run?

Again - everyone here has said this team is likely a low playoff seed, though I do think without Kyle they might be on the outside looking in. What does that accomplish exactly? Being a 7-8 seed or playing in the play in tourney?

Point is, a one year tank to get a star level talent which you won't get via signing, which would gut the team via trade, isn't a crazy proposition.

Not sure what nuance you are looking for considering you didn't even read what the discussion has been about.

Fact is, you need a superstar, many times even two, to win a title, and we don't have one, or any real avenue of getting a second. The teams that are trading for stars tend to already have one superstar in place, Brooklyn had two.

I thought post Kawhi everyone would have realized without a superstar you have no contender aspirations, but I guess not.

A lot to unpack there.

The "nuance" im looking for is with the term "tank". It wouldn't be a one year tank. Tanks/rebuilds dont last 1 year. Retools might. It would be a one year "retool". Btw. One we ARE NOT bad enough to get a top 5 pick . Thats just the fact of the matter. Its possible we end up 9th seed or 10th seed without kyle, win the play in tournament , which doesn't affect our lottery pick at all, and we still keep the tradition of winning and making the playoffs while also having a late lottery pick. Maybe an ideal situation. Again. Top 5 is out of the question and we can stop that noise. This draft is deep though right through the lottery picks.

And i thought the kawhi situation showed ppl that staying competitive and taking advantage of situations where stars become available is the move. Why isnt that what we took from it? We didn't win a championship through lottery picks. Im sorry. If we would have tanked like u guys were advocating for back in 2018 and before, the Kawhi trade never happens.
The move is to collect assets while ALSO being competitive, and put ur name in the hat when the next superstar becomes disgruntled. Same way we did with harden. Might be beal next. Might be KAT. Might be someone else we don't expect .

Thats how u get your superstar thats needed on title winning teams, while also keeping your championship pedigree and staying competitive. Theres no guarantees in a pick. At all. U can trade for the sure fire thing while also remaining decent.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[LBJKB24MJ23]

okay these options make it more clear for the idiots who keep thinking tWo have this one mindset of selling everything.

i'm kinda torn on the matter. I kinda wanna see how this team does because its the playoffs and I think we can pull a fast one on the Nets in the first round if it ever happened. Definitely won't happen without Lowry.

I definitely want to see the Raptors punk the Nets.

on the other hand, Powell and Lowry are most likely gone and the Raptors have no capspace for new blood on this team if they are back. i think Raptors are at a tipping point where new blood and talent need to replace what we had, which has grown stale (this year).

definitely keep core but we need new talent on this team.

[ATLTimekeeper]

If it is for a talent upgrade of A.Len for D.Rose, you do it ALL day, and figure out the surplus after. We waived A.Len for NOTHING and haven't replaced him... Maybe, you get D.Rose and then you move Powell/TD/Thomas for a BIG... Either way, why does almost every GM talk about drafting the best player rather than positional need when it comes to the draft?

Okay, then the Raptors made a huge mistake not trading Len + a 2nd for Rose. Or maybe they didn't want him. I know which scenario makes more sense.

Is N.Powell right now worth more than PJ Tucker was when we got him for Two 2nd Rd picks? Yes he is... You called the PJ deal one of Masai's BEST moves, better than the Vasquez deal which ultimately netted us Powell/OG... Now, you are saying the best we can expect for N.Powell is A.Len and 2nd Pick?

I said it's potentially a marker for what we could get for Powell. I can't quite make heads or tails of your PJ Tucker example. Trade value fluctuates and is dependant on the buyer and seller. We have one sample of what a very good bench scorer costs at the moment.

[Pooh_Jeter]

If it is for a talent upgrade of A.Len for D.Rose, you do it ALL day, and figure out the surplus after. We waived A.Len for NOTHING and haven't replaced him... Maybe, you get D.Rose and then you move Powell/TD/Thomas for a BIG... Either way, why does almost every GM talk about drafting the best player rather than positional need when it comes to the draft?

Okay, then the Raptors made a huge mistake not trading Len + a 2nd for Rose. Or maybe they didn't want him. I know which scenario makes more sense.

Is N.Powell right now worth more than PJ Tucker was when we got him for Two 2nd Rd picks? Yes he is... You called the PJ deal one of Masai's BEST moves, better than the Vasquez deal which ultimately netted us Powell/OG... Now, you are saying the best we can expect for N.Powell is A.Len and 2nd Pick?

I said it's potentially a marker for what we could get for Powell. I can't quite make heads or tails of your PJ Tucker example. Trade value fluctuates and is dependant on the buyer and seller. We have one sample of what a very good bench scorer costs at the moment.

It's weird how you were certain of Powell's value, now you're saying it's fluid and dependent on the situation and beyond that it's an extremely small sample size.

Yet, when it comes to another Kawhi deal or trading for a lottery pick it will be no problem and you can get it done painlessly and for below market value.

There is no consistency with your valuations of what is and isn't likely. Seemingly the only thing that is consistent is that if it fits your own narrative then it's very likely.

[canada_dry]

okay these options make it more clear for the idiots who keep thinking tWo have this one mindset of selling everything.

i'm kinda torn on the matter. I kinda wanna see how this team does because its the playoffs and I think we can pull a fast one on the Nets in the first round if it ever happened. Definitely won't happen without Lowry.

I definitely want to see the Raptors punk the Nets.

on the other hand, Powell and Lowry are most likely gone and the Raptors have no capspace for new blood on this team if they are back. i think Raptors are at a tipping point where new blood and talent need to replace what we had, which has grown stale (this year).

definitely keep core but we need new talent on this team.

Agreed. They dont get how unrealistic what they seek is lol

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[Skeezo]

Okay, then the Raptors made a huge mistake not trading Len + a 2nd for Rose. Or maybe they didn't want him. I know which scenario makes more sense.

Regardless if the Raptors wanted D.Rose or not, or if Detroit would want A.Len in return... The fact remains you stated DSJ is the equivalent of A.Len... If you can get the quality of player of D.Rose who you equate the same as N.Powell for A.Len and a 2nd round pick, why the hell would you waive that type of an asset for nothing? Or maybe, A.Len/2nd isn't worth anything near what DSJ/2nd is an asset... I also know which scenario makes more sense.

I said it's potentially a marker for what we could get for Powell. I can't quite make heads or tails of your PJ Tucker example. Trade value fluctuates and is dependant on the buyer and seller. We have one sample of what a very good bench scorer costs at the moment.

Trade value seems to fluctuate by whatever your argument is... The PJ Tucker example highlights this constant shift in your valuation process.

[Skeezo]

okay these options make it more clear for the idiots who keep thinking tWo have this one mindset of selling everything.

i'm kinda torn on the matter. I kinda wanna see how this team does because its the playoffs and I think we can pull a fast one on the Nets in the first round if it ever happened. Definitely won't happen without Lowry.

I definitely want to see the Raptors punk the Nets.

on the other hand, Powell and Lowry are most likely gone and the Raptors have no capspace for new blood on this team if they are back. i think Raptors are at a tipping point where new blood and talent need to replace what we had, which has grown stale (this year).

definitely keep core but we need new talent on this team.

Agreed. They dont get how unrealistic what they seek is lol

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

LBJKB24MJ23 is pointing out that the poll results suggests there ISN'T some LARGE ravenous group of TWO'ers spreading their "toxic tanking" rhetoric throughout RealGM that it seems you and others are suggesting exists... Unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

All the tank talk is dumb. We arent that bad even with a lowry trade. U guys must have skipped this part of the report...

"Toronto does not appear interested in rebuilding. You don't rebuild after paying a combined $157 million to VanVleet and OG Anunoby the summer after inking Pascal Siakam to a $130 million deal. You retool."

We aren't rebuilding. We r retooling. Theres a difference. The fanbase needs to be more nuanced.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

How much did Golden State pay Steph when they tanked?

How about San Antonio to Robinson when he could have come back and made a playoff run?

Again - everyone here has said this team is likely a low playoff seed, though I do think without Kyle they might be on the outside looking in. What does that accomplish exactly? Being a 7-8 seed or playing in the play in tourney?

Point is, a one year tank to get a star level talent which you won't get via signing, which would gut the team via trade, isn't a crazy proposition.

Not sure what nuance you are looking for considering you didn't even read what the discussion has been about.

Fact is, you need a superstar, many times even two, to win a title, and we don't have one, or any real avenue of getting a second. The teams that are trading for stars tend to already have one superstar in place, Brooklyn had two.

I thought post Kawhi everyone would have realized without a superstar you have no contender aspirations, but I guess not.

A lot to unpack there.

The "nuance" im looking for is with the term "tank". It wouldn't be a one year tank. Tanks/rebuilds dont last 1 year. Retools might. It would be a one year "retool". Btw. One we ARE NOT bad enough to get a top 5 pick . Thats just the fact of the matter. Its possible we end up 9th seed or 10th seed without kyle, win the play in tournament , which doesn't affect our lottery pick at all, and we still keep the tradition of winning and making the playoffs while also having a late lottery pick. Maybe an ideal situation. Again. Top 5 is out of the question and we can stop that noise. This draft is deep though right through the lottery picks.

And i thought the kawhi situation showed ppl that staying competitive and taking advantage of situations where stars become available is the move. Why isnt that what we took from it? We didn't win a championship through lottery picks. Im sorry. If we would have tanked like u guys were advocating for back in 2018 and before, the Kawhi trade never happens.
The move is to collect assets while ALSO being competitive, and put ur name in the hat when the next superstar becomes disgruntled. Same way we did with harden. Might be beal next. Might be KAT. Might be someone else we don't expect .

Thats how u get your superstar thats needed on title winning teams, while also keeping your championship pedigree and staying competitive. Theres no guarantees in a pick. At all. U can trade for the sure fire thing while also remaining decent.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

i mean looking at the past with 20/20 goggles on doesn't mean its going to happen again - like how you're expecting it to go from the way you're using the past as a set up to how the Raptors are going to be.

we might be back in the lottery in 5 years time because this experiment didn't work out because we kept trying to plug all the holes in a sinking ship. I would say this core has a about 4-5 year time line. Siakam and FVV are 27 this year are pretty much the 'cornerstones' of this team right now. OG is the glue guy at 24 (this year) so he might make the the cut in a potential turnover down the road.

what happened with Kawhi, was a fluke, in terms of having the right pieces in place and making a play for a guy who has a chronic knee problem - and having it all work out in the end, by the basketball gods - also due to the injuries to GS. what could have gone right for the Raptors, did. not to take anything away from what the Raptors did but you're basically also gambling on a hunch that it could happen again (very unlikely again - pretty much a once in a generational move there)

[Steelo Green]

All the tank talk is dumb. We arent that bad even with a lowry trade. U guys must have skipped this part of the report...

"Toronto does not appear interested in rebuilding. You don't rebuild after paying a combined $157 million to VanVleet and OG Anunoby the summer after inking Pascal Siakam to a $130 million deal. You retool."

We aren't rebuilding. We r retooling. Theres a difference. The fanbase needs to be more nuanced.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

How much did Golden State pay Steph when they tanked?

How about San Antonio to Robinson when he could have come back and made a playoff run?

Again - everyone here has said this team is likely a low playoff seed, though I do think without Kyle they might be on the outside looking in. What does that accomplish exactly? Being a 7-8 seed or playing in the play in tourney?

Point is, a one year tank to get a star level talent which you won't get via signing, which would gut the team via trade, isn't a crazy proposition.

Not sure what nuance you are looking for considering you didn't even read what the discussion has been about.

Fact is, you need a superstar, many times even two, to win a title, and we don't have one, or any real avenue of getting a second. The teams that are trading for stars tend to already have one superstar in place, Brooklyn had two.

I thought post Kawhi everyone would have realized without a superstar you have no contender aspirations, but I guess not.

A lot to unpack there.

The "nuance" im looking for is with the term "tank". It wouldn't be a one year tank. Tanks/rebuilds dont last 1 year. Retools might. It would be a one year "retool". Btw. One we ARE NOT bad enough to get a top 5 pick . Thats just the fact of the matter. Its possible we end up 9th seed or 10th seed without kyle, win the play in tournament , which doesn't affect our lottery pick at all, and we still keep the tradition of winning and making the playoffs while also having a late lottery pick. Maybe an ideal situation. Again. Top 5 is out of the question and we can stop that noise. This draft is deep though right through the lottery picks.

And i thought the kawhi situation showed ppl that staying competitive and taking advantage of situations where stars become available is the move. Why isnt that what we took from it? We didn't win a championship through lottery picks. Im sorry. If we would have tanked like u guys were advocating for back in 2018 and before, the Kawhi trade never happens.
The move is to collect assets while ALSO being competitive, and put ur name in the hat when the next superstar becomes disgruntled. Same way we did with harden. Might be beal next. Might be KAT. Might be someone else we don't expect .

Thats how u get your superstar thats needed on title winning teams, while also keeping your championship pedigree and staying competitive. Theres no guarantees in a pick. At all. U can trade for the sure fire thing while also remaining decent.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Teams have tanked for one year yes. I’m not sure why the nomenclature is getting so misunderstood.

Did the Warriors tank? Yes.

Was it one year? Yes.

This draft being deep or not is irrelevant, the true superstar level talents are in the top 5. Hoping you can be that team that hits on the late pick isn’t a great way to go about it. The fact is you will more than likely not hit outside the top five. For every Kawhi or Giannis there are hundreds of role players or players with no career picked in the teens.

And here we go again with Kawhi. The Kawhi situation first of all was involving two lottery picks (Demar and Jak) and also was a situation where we had a player a year off and unknowns about his health or commitment.

What was James Harden just traded for? Yeah, Kawhi would be dealt for more than that. It’s not a replicable situation. I thought people could see after all these trades for Holliday and Harden that to get a player that good will cost us ten fold more than we lucked out with the first time.

Tell me honestly, what would it cost today to trade to acquire Kawhi? Pascal, OG, TD, 4 firsts and 3 pick swaps.

Is Kawhi with the rest of this squad a contender? Good team but contender? I think not. Then you have to take into account if he stays and then if he leaves we just traded a bunch of to be unprotected lottery picks and have zero future.

Kawhi trade taught us a lot yes.

KAT, Beal, what would they cost and do they make us contenders?

Do people realize how good Kawhi is/was? The Beals and KATs of the world will cost what Harden did and we still wouldn’t even be better than the top 3-4 teams in the East.

The trade route has changed big time and the cost with all the picks is a heavy price to pay considering we don’t have a Giannis already there, or KD, or Kyrie, or Kawhi (PG situation).

A team like Toronto to make that deal now would gut them so badly and wouldn’t even take us where people think Kawhi did.

Kawhi is a top 15-20 player ever. Beal? KAT? Yeah they maybe help us get to a 50 win team maybe.

[Steelo Green]

Also - there is 0 untouchables on this roster. If the right deal is there. You make it.

Not even tanking related.

A team without a superstar should not have any guy as untradeable.

[MindState]

Warriors fan here. I would tank again this year if we could get Wiseman all over again. He is going to be a franchise player. Raptors should have some sort of plan because if you guys miss out on a franchise player in the draft to flame out early in the playoffs it makes no sense.

The Nets being in the east just makes it all more of a reason to rebuild in my opinion. They are probably going to dominate for the next 3 years. After that they will likely break up and move on. At that point Raptors might have a prime Cade or something, a prime Siakam and FVV as well and be ready to compete.

[KL78192020]

Warriors fan here. I would tank again this year if we could get Wiseman all over again. He is going to be a franchise player. Raptors should have some sort of plan because if you guys miss out on a franchise player in the draft to flame out early in the playoffs it makes no sense.

The Nets being in the east just makes it all more of a reason to rebuild in my opinion. They are probably going to dominate for the next 3 years. After that they will likely break up and move on. At that point Raptors might have a prime Cade or something, a prime Siakam and FVV as well and be ready to compete.

Luckily you outsourced the tank to Minny! lol what a great trade. Although looks like they might finish bottom 3.

[omar36]

Warriors fan here. I would tank again this year if we could get Wiseman all over again. He is going to be a franchise player. Raptors should have some sort of plan because if you guys miss out on a franchise player in the draft to flame out early in the playoffs it makes no sense.

The Nets being in the east just makes it all more of a reason to rebuild in my opinion. They are probably going to dominate for the next 3 years. After that they will likely break up and move on. At that point Raptors might have a prime Cade or something, a prime Siakam and FVV as well and be ready to compete.

the issue with this is siakim/fvv are good enough to compete for spots in the east. tho we have tank commander great like baynes, the team still isnt bottom 5 worthy with the roster even without lowry.

[B-Ball Freak]

Im with option 2 right now.

[720]

Norman and Lowry scoring 35-40 points combined a game for the past 2 weeks so trading them would result in more losses. That's unacceptable because that would result in us getting a lotto pick. You need to cultivate talent from within and continue winning.

[ATLTimekeeper]

It's weird how you were certain of Powell's value, now you're saying it's fluid and dependent on the situation and beyond that it's an extremely small sample size.

You mean, when I wrote this:

Also, the DRose trade might be an indication that Powell's return wouldn't be that hot.

Doesn't sound too certain to me.

Yet, when it comes to another Kawhi deal or trading for a lottery pick it will be no problem and you can get it done painlessly and for below market value.

I trust you've been reading over the past few weeks and it's been established that stars, when they want out, tend to go for less than they're worth. Are you disputing this? That would be weird. There's no inconsistency with what I'm saying.

[h4rrison]

So has the Tank halted? Has everyone jumped ship? How do we get this thing rolling again?