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Dalek wrote:I am glad he got the deal, but the last three games he looked like a rookie.

NY and Brooklyn were tough match-ups for him because those are high level teams. I like his feet and he knows how to position himself, but being a bulkier guy he is going to have to work on his tags as he gets caught on drives bumping the driver on the closeout. I would like to see him let guys go past him a bit and then block them at the rim. I think he has the speed and wingspan to do a late recovery.

If he doesn't figure that out he is going to struggle with fouls because teams are going small like Brooklyn.

Stanley Johnson has stated that it takes over a year to become fluent in the Raptors system. New Fred is running on just effort right now. We will know what we have a year from now.

About these two year deals, they can backfire if a player develops quickly. Wouldn't 3 year deals be better in the long run?

Dennis 37 wrote:

Dalek wrote:I am glad he got the deal, but the last three games he looked like a rookie.

NY and Brooklyn were tough match-ups for him because those are high level teams. I like his feet and he knows how to position himself, but being a bulkier guy he is going to have to work on his tags as he gets caught on drives bumping the driver on the closeout. I would like to see him let guys go past him a bit and then block them at the rim. I think he has the speed and wingspan to do a late recovery.

If he doesn't figure that out he is going to struggle with fouls because teams are going small like Brooklyn.

Stanley Johnson has stated that it takes over a year to become fluent in the Raptors system. New Fred is running on just effort right now. We will know what we have a year from now.

About these two year deals, they can backfire if a player develops quickly. Wouldn't 3 year deals be better in the long run?

I’ve wondered this in the past and arrived at the conclusion that our management is ethical in its financial transactions with its players. Masai has likely embedded this culture into everything that we do. 3yr deals on a cheap contract can quickly become unfair to a player that has the work ethic to develop quickly. They also remove some incentive to improve rapidly, 2yr initial contracts are more balanced for both the prospect and the organization. You could argue that they slant in the way of the player, but then again.. isn’t that what this organization is all about? It isn’t for no reason that players who come here and genuinely want to play for us speak so highly of the organization. Masai and his team have now become embedded into our DNA and we’re all the better for it. As an organization, we have a distinct identity that winning record or not, always stays with us.

Tor_Raps wrote:Hes a nice 3rd center on a good team that can maybe develop into a primary backup. Also think Birch is a good backup too. Now let's add a starting center in the offseason and we're good at that position.

A 3 team trade (Phil-Toronto-Memphis) sending Lowry to philly & a players (unknown) to Memphis & Jonas back to Toronto
Would be perfect for us but it’s only an idea

sycammer wrote:

Tor_Raps wrote:Hes a nice 3rd center on a good team that can maybe develop into a primary backup. Also think Birch is a good backup too. Now let's add a starting center in the offseason and we're good at that position.

A 3 team trade (Phil-Toronto-Memphis) sending Lowry to philly & a players (unknown) to Memphis & Jonas back to Toronto
Would be perfect for us but it’s only an idea

Jonas isn't the answer to any of our problems. Bring back Jonas would just open up problems elsewhere (defense/shot blocking/PnR D). Jonas is a hell of a rebounded and efficient as hell. So don't take it as I think he's a scrub. I just think it'll create other problems.

Hansari wrote:

Dennis 37 wrote:

Dalek wrote:I am glad he got the deal, but the last three games he looked like a rookie.

NY and Brooklyn were tough match-ups for him because those are high level teams. I like his feet and he knows how to position himself, but being a bulkier guy he is going to have to work on his tags as he gets caught on drives bumping the driver on the closeout. I would like to see him let guys go past him a bit and then block them at the rim. I think he has the speed and wingspan to do a late recovery.

If he doesn't figure that out he is going to struggle with fouls because teams are going small like Brooklyn.

Stanley Johnson has stated that it takes over a year to become fluent in the Raptors system. New Fred is running on just effort right now. We will know what we have a year from now.

About these two year deals, they can backfire if a player develops quickly. Wouldn't 3 year deals be better in the long run?

I’ve wondered this in the past and arrived at the conclusion that our management is ethical in its financial transactions with its players. Masai has likely embedded this culture into everything that we do. 3yr deals on a cheap contract can quickly become unfair to a player that has the work ethic to develop quickly. They also remove some incentive to improve rapidly, 2yr initial contracts are more balanced for both the prospect and the organization. You could argue that they slant in the way of the player, but then again.. isn’t that what this organization is all about? It isn’t for no reason that players who come here and genuinely want to play for us speak so highly of the organization. Masai and his team have now become embedded into our DNA and we’re all the better for it. As an organization, we have a distinct identity that winning record or not, always stays with us.

I get what you are saying, but if the 3rd year was a team option at pay similar to a first round pick in year three, that would still be pretty good for an undrafted player.

Dennis 37 wrote:

Hansari wrote:

Dennis 37 wrote:
Stanley Johnson has stated that it takes over a year to become fluent in the Raptors system. New Fred is running on just effort right now. We will know what we have a year from now.

About these two year deals, they can backfire if a player develops quickly. Wouldn't 3 year deals be better in the long run?

I’ve wondered this in the past and arrived at the conclusion that our management is ethical in its financial transactions with its players. Masai has likely embedded this culture into everything that we do. 3yr deals on a cheap contract can quickly become unfair to a player that has the work ethic to develop quickly. They also remove some incentive to improve rapidly, 2yr initial contracts are more balanced for both the prospect and the organization. You could argue that they slant in the way of the player, but then again.. isn’t that what this organization is all about? It isn’t for no reason that players who come here and genuinely want to play for us speak so highly of the organization. Masai and his team have now become embedded into our DNA and we’re all the better for it. As an organization, we have a distinct identity that winning record or not, always stays with us.

I get what you are saying, but if the 3rd year was a team option at pay similar to a first round pick in year three, that would still be pretty good for an undrafted player.

Do we get RFA rights after year 2?

I think that's the key question, because then we retain a degree of control.

MessiahUjiri wrote:

Dennis 37 wrote:

Hansari wrote:
I’ve wondered this in the past and arrived at the conclusion that our management is ethical in its financial transactions with its players. Masai has likely embedded this culture into everything that we do. 3yr deals on a cheap contract can quickly become unfair to a player that has the work ethic to develop quickly. They also remove some incentive to improve rapidly, 2yr initial contracts are more balanced for both the prospect and the organization. You could argue that they slant in the way of the player, but then again.. isn’t that what this organization is all about? It isn’t for no reason that players who come here and genuinely want to play for us speak so highly of the organization. Masai and his team have now become embedded into our DNA and we’re all the better for it. As an organization, we have a distinct identity that winning record or not, always stays with us.

I get what you are saying, but if the 3rd year was a team option at pay similar to a first round pick in year three, that would still be pretty good for an undrafted player.

Do we get RFA rights after year 2?

I think that's the key question, because then we retain a degree of control.

According to the RGM news feed, Gillespie will be an RFA in 2022

Hansari has a great point about culture: a team that keeps its commitment to players will attract FAs that want a shot. It won't attract stars, but the Raptors have managed to pick up players on minimum contracts, and then develop them into useful players. FVV and Boucher for sure; Davis and Thomas flipped for SRPs; Watson, Watanabe, Bembry on the team now; Brissett and Alize Johnson signed with other teams. That's a lot of "free" talent pciked up without using draft capital.

Bologna Smasher wrote:I've been following him a bit since you guys signed him. I've liked what I saw from him. He reminds me a lot of Richaun Holmes.

That would be a dream scenario.

Hansari wrote:

Dennis 37 wrote:

Dalek wrote:I am glad he got the deal, but the last three games he looked like a rookie.

NY and Brooklyn were tough match-ups for him because those are high level teams. I like his feet and he knows how to position himself, but being a bulkier guy he is going to have to work on his tags as he gets caught on drives bumping the driver on the closeout. I would like to see him let guys go past him a bit and then block them at the rim. I think he has the speed and wingspan to do a late recovery.

If he doesn't figure that out he is going to struggle with fouls because teams are going small like Brooklyn.

Stanley Johnson has stated that it takes over a year to become fluent in the Raptors system. New Fred is running on just effort right now. We will know what we have a year from now.

About these two year deals, they can backfire if a player develops quickly. Wouldn't 3 year deals be better in the long run?

I’ve wondered this in the past and arrived at the conclusion that our management is ethical in its financial transactions with its players. Masai has likely embedded this culture into everything that we do. 3yr deals on a cheap contract can quickly become unfair to a player that has the work ethic to develop quickly. They also remove some incentive to improve rapidly, 2yr initial contracts are more balanced for both the prospect and the organization. You could argue that they slant in the way of the player, but then again.. isn’t that what this organization is all about? It isn’t for no reason that players who come here and genuinely want to play for us speak so highly of the organization. Masai and his team have now become embedded into our DNA and we’re all the better for it. As an organization, we have a distinct identity that winning record or not, always stays with us.

If you recall the Spurs were the pioneer of this type of player development culture. They are constantly churning out solid role players who have improved in different situations. They select players at the tail end of the draft most often and somehow always find gems.

They also churn out coaches and front office members. The raps are doing the same. Chris Finch and Nate Bjorkgren - two head coaches from the raps FO in the last year lends credence to this.

Great to have an organizational culture and continuity.

oldncreaky wrote:

MessiahUjiri wrote:

Dennis 37 wrote:
I get what you are saying, but if the 3rd year was a team option at pay similar to a first round pick in year three, that would still be pretty good for an undrafted player.

Do we get RFA rights after year 2?

I think that's the key question, because then we retain a degree of control.

According to the RGM news feed, Gillespie will be an RFA in 2022

Hansari has a great point about culture: a team that keeps its commitment to players will attract FAs that want a shot. It won't attract stars, but the Raptors have managed to pick up players on minimum contracts, and then develop them into useful players. FVV and Boucher for sure; Davis and Thomas flipped for SRPs; Watson, Watanabe, Bembry on the team now; Brissett and Alize Johnson signed with other teams. That's a lot of "free" talent pciked up without using draft capital.

Any undervalued FA looking to “bet on themselves” sees the way the raps front office increases the value of their players and then pays fair market value to retain them. Eg. Fred, Pascal, Norm, OG, Boucher, Yuta, Gillespie etc. I agree that this is a competitive advantage.

Freddie is the new Bebe imo. With better work ethic and no substance (ab)use challenges.

To me, the raps have two developmental timelines. I’d lump Gillespie in with OG and GTJ, while Khem aligns with Fred, Pascal and Boucher.

Dalek wrote:I am glad he got the deal, but the last three games he looked like a rookie.

That's pretty standard for a rookie though, in fairness.

Parataxis wrote:

Dalek wrote:I am glad he got the deal, but the last three games he looked like a rookie.

That's pretty standard for a rookie though, in fairness.

I think after the first couple games I felt like this guy could do no wrong. He had a five block game and even blocked Kyrie trying to get a mid range shot off. His blocks have been down and his fouls way up. Of course it is early and he is a rookie, but while I like the player, he is going to have to learn to guard on the perimeter better given the amount of stretch bigs/small ball in the NBA.

Dalek wrote:

Parataxis wrote:

Dalek wrote:I am glad he got the deal, but the last three games he looked like a rookie.

That's pretty standard for a rookie though, in fairness.

I think after the first couple games I felt like this guy could do no wrong. He had a five block game and even blocked Kyrie trying to get a mid range shot off. His blocks have been down and his fouls way up. Of course it is early and he is a rookie, but while I like the player, he is going to have to learn to guard on the perimeter better given the amount of stretch bigs/small ball in the NBA.

Oh yeah, he definitely has a lot of game to improve. But he's a cheap signing and, as long as we keep our expectations in check, I think we're going to be happy with him.

We don't have the three point shooting from our centers but what we do have is two very active centers really bringing it on both ends. Tirelessly setting great screens, agile enough to come out and show at the arc in the defensive zone and still able to collapse and stay with a driving guard.

They are both active offensive rebounders and that's an advantage that you wouldn't have if your centers are always sitting at the top of the arc on offence. They are both capable of becoming good pic n roll centers and that's a must. I don't think we need another center anymore because they have limited ability to really impact in today's game unless your an Embid or Jokic. We can use our resources on other needs as we will often want to play small ball anyways.

It's great to see Toronto focus on getting a couple Cs, but I wonder if they are kicking themselves about Oshae Brissette. He was on the team with a two-way last year and they just gave up on him.

In his five starts with Indy he has averaged 9 and 5 and 45% from 3 including a recent 18 and 10 versus Portland and a 23 and 12 versus OKC. He is 6'7" and 22 years old. I wonder why they didn't pull the trigger on a deal last year? Don't tell me Stanley Johnson is the reason.

phanman wrote:Meh could do worse than him as your 3rd string center. He's had a rough 3 games recently and didn't realize that he was so ground-bound for guy that young and with his frame.

It's unreal how bad his leaping is. How is that even possible?

Tor_Raps wrote:Hes a nice 3rd center on a good team that can maybe develop into a primary backup. Also think Birch is a good backup too. Now let's add a starting center in the offseason and we're good at that position.

I am hoping that. I am not in tune with cap stuff, is there room for Birch and Gillespie both as backups, and still get that bigger better starting C?

antonaki1 wrote:We don't have the three point shooting from our centers but what we do have is two very active centers really bringing it on both ends. Tirelessly setting great screens, agile enough to come out and show at the arc in the defensive zone and still able to collapse and stay with a driving guard.

They are both active offensive rebounders and that's an advantage that you wouldn't have if your centers are always sitting at the top of the arc on offence. They are both capable of becoming good pic n roll centers and that's a must. I don't think we need another center anymore because they have limited ability to really impact in today's game unless your an Embid or Jokic. We can use our resources on other needs as we will often want to play small ball anyways.

Very small sample size I know but it was good seeing Birch hitting 2 corner 3's last night. His form looks decent to me. It would be a great bonus if he could work on that this summer and come back a reasonable 3 shooter

WaltFrazier wrote:

Tor_Raps wrote:Hes a nice 3rd center on a good team that can maybe develop into a primary backup. Also think Birch is a good backup too. Now let's add a starting center in the offseason and we're good at that position.

I am hoping that. I am not in tune with cap stuff, is there room for Birch and Gillespie both as backups, and still get that bigger better starting C?

To me, the ideal achievable goal should be to exhaust the cap space on re-signing our own Bird rights players (including Kyle, which may be a sign and trade) then sign a decent C who can shoot (Theis or Olynyk) for the MLE, and re-sign Birch for the room exception of ~5 mill.

If Kyle walks this offseason with no returning contracts, then a goal may be to sign Richaun Holmes for 15 mill with the cap space. Not sure if there will be enough cap space left over to bring back Birch in that event. But Holmes isn't bigger than Birch. Not sure it's worth overpaying for Holmes when Birch is a similar type of player, albeit one who can hit 3s. Why not just could get a MLE-level C (even add on an extra mill for the Toronto premium) plus Birch with cap space for a total of, say, $17 mill for the pair.