Tank World Order V (Rise of the Phoenix)

[T-d0t]

How good is Flagg, is he worth the hype?

[NinjaBro]

Read on Twitter

Essentially we know we won't be winning anything this year. Gunning for a top 10 pick!

I think they give it 30-35 games, see where they're at, who looks good, who doesn't and then make moves accordingly.

Unless they overachieve and they look like a .500 or better team, I think they will prioritize pick position as the season progresses.

No more evaluating! We know our starting 5 is fine but we have the worst bench in the league by a wide margin. We're not winning anything this year. Time to rip off the band aid and look forward to the draft. No more dilly dallying around.

"We need to trade Siakam for AJ Griffin before it's too late!" - PhilBlackson

[WuTang_CMB]

the first 41 games are ROUGH.
We will likely be 13-28

[Brinbe]

Yak isn't gonna make a considerable difference between tanking or not, so trading him without having a functional C in place to replace him is absolutely stupid. You'd be destroying a season of development for no reason. Like people do understand that, right? I'm as pro-tank as anyone, but not at all costs. You still have to care about actually developing these guys we do have too and you can't properly do that without having a big man who can do all the dirty work.

[Scase]

Read on Twitter

Essentially we know we won't be winning anything this year. Gunning for a top 10 pick!

It's weird how so many people here were saying we need to build through the draft and we should be tanking, and tons of people said it was stupid. Yet here is Masai saying the same thing...weird.


Granted, this is still Masai, and his words largely are not to be relied on, so I am still reserving judgment for the actual season. If BB is still on this roster after the deadline I will lose my marbles.

My dream outcome of this season :

BB Gone for some draft capital, preferably no bad salary coming back, but if it makes for a better return, I'm on board.
Jak traded to NYC for Mitchell + compensation, probably needs a 3rd team.
Get Chomche some legit minutes to see if we can speed up his timetable.
Scottie takes another step in his game and flirts with 3rd team all NBA status, and an AS reserve coach selection. Really hope the talk about his mid range game is on full display.
RJ doesn't regress too much and still holds a decent efficiency improvement over his career averages. Hopefully the system was what was holding him back in NYC was the issue and we see him thrive here.
IQ and Scottie get a great PnR game going.
Gradey continues off his strong finish to last season and the added weight makes him a no brainer for the starting spot.
Top 5 pick, ideally #1/2 lol.


The bolded ones I think are the absolute most important ones. This season is going to be a struggle to watch without any real rookies to watch growing, but I am excited to see if Scottie and IQ can find some better synergy in their games, they seemed to clash a bit last year when their games are very complimentary. I wonder if it's the expectation from IQ being the primary ball handler/typical PG role and us leaning more into Scottie as the hub. I think they can be a real solid 1-2 punch.

I'm also low key excited to see Mogbo, I just hope he wasn't a "keep Scottie happy" pick.

[Clutch0z24]

How good is Flagg, is he worth the hype?

Yes he is very well worth it....Held his own against the best in the world in the USA runs in the offseason and looks like a menace on both ends of the floor....Thing is this draft is not a Flagg or bust type draft....Yeah Flagg might be the best player in the draft right now but with us having Barnes/Quickley/Barrett as young guys if we even add a VJ Edgecomb or Harper you are cooking up something special

[Raps in 4]

Yak isn't gonna make a considerable difference between tanking or not, so trading him without having a functional C in place to replace him is absolutely stupid. You'd be destroying a season of development for no reason. Like people do understand that, right? I'm as pro-tank as anyone, but not at all costs. You still have to care about actually developing these guys we do have too and you can't properly do that without having a big man who can do all the dirty work.

A functional C absolutely elevates this roster and turns a few close losses into wins.

But I agree with your point about development.

[Brinbe]

Yak isn't gonna make a considerable difference between tanking or not, so trading him without having a functional C in place to replace him is absolutely stupid. You'd be destroying a season of development for no reason. Like people do understand that, right? I'm as pro-tank as anyone, but not at all costs. You still have to care about actually developing these guys we do have too and you can't properly do that without having a big man who can do all the dirty work.

A functional C absolutely elevates this roster and turns a few close losses into wins.

But I agree with your second point.

Sure, without one there wouldn't be a functional team and maybe that's more my point. It's undoubtedly a fine line they're treading, but will it really make a meaningful difference in lottery odds? I highly doubt it. They're gonna be bad regardless. And I mean if Fernando/Boucher/Carlson or someone else can prove they can set screens, grab boards/be a paint presence on the defensive end to an average degree then by all means trade him now. I'm not married to the idea of keeping Yak at all costs just because. I just don't think it's worth stunting months of development time, especially when you're trying to develop a young lead guard in IQ too.

[YogurtProducer]

Read on Twitter

Essentially we know we won't be winning anything this year. Gunning for a top 10 pick!

It's weird how so many people here were saying we need to build through the draft and we should be tanking, and tons of people said it was stupid. Yet here is Masai saying the same thing...weird.

Funny though - because this is not really what Masai said, and you tend to vastly misinterpret what a lot of posters on here say is "stupid" and make up arguments that no one is (or very few) are actually trying to make.

[YogurtProducer]

Yak isn't gonna make a considerable difference between tanking or not, so trading him without having a functional C in place to replace him is absolutely stupid. You'd be destroying a season of development for no reason. Like people do understand that, right? I'm as pro-tank as anyone, but not at all costs. You still have to care about actually developing these guys we do have too and you can't properly do that without having a big man who can do all the dirty work.

A functional C absolutely elevates this roster and turns a few close losses into wins.

But I agree with your second point.

Sure, without one there wouldn't be a functional team and maybe that's more my point. It's undoubtedly a fine line they're treading, but will it really make a meaningful difference in lottery odds? I highly doubt it. They're gonna be bad regardless. And I mean if Fernando/Boucher/Carlson or someone else can prove they can set screens, grab boards/be a paint presence on the defensive end to an average degree then by all means trade him now. I'm not married to the idea of keeping Yak at all costs just because. I just don't think it's worth stunting months of development time, especially when you're trying to develop a young lead guard in IQ too.

I think based on current construction, Poeltl is a considerable difference.

Poeltl is SIGNFICANTLY better than any of our backup C's. Bruno was able to be gotten cheap for a reason. Boucher is a guy who is undersized at the PF position, let alone C, and is north of 30 coming off an injury. Carlson is a UDFA who will likely be abused at the NBA level.

Like if we want to tank, there is no easier way than Poellt being moved and not replacing him as a C and rolling out those 3 you mentioned for 48 minutes per game.

[Brinbe]

A functional C absolutely elevates this roster and turns a few close losses into wins.

But I agree with your second point.

Sure, without one there wouldn't be a functional team and maybe that's more my point. It's undoubtedly a fine line they're treading, but will it really make a meaningful difference in lottery odds? I highly doubt it. They're gonna be bad regardless. And I mean if Fernando/Boucher/Carlson or someone else can prove they can set screens, grab boards/be a paint presence on the defensive end to an average degree then by all means trade him now. I'm not married to the idea of keeping Yak at all costs just because. I just don't think it's worth stunting months of development time, especially when you're trying to develop a young lead guard in IQ too.

I think based on current construction, Poeltl is a considerable difference.

Poeltl is SIGNFICANTLY better than any of our backup C's. Bruno was able to be gotten cheap for a reason. Boucher is a guy who is undersized at the PF position, let alone C, and is north of 30 coming off an injury. Carlson is a UDFA who will likely be abused at the NBA level.

Like if we want to tank, there is no easier way than Poellt being moved and not replacing him as a C and rolling out those 3 you mentioned for 48 minutes per game.

Yes, that's exactly my point. I understand why people want to tank at all costs, but I'd like to do that without destroying our ability to play functional basketball which is fundamental to developing young talent.

[Scase]

Yak isn't gonna make a considerable difference between tanking or not, so trading him without having a functional C in place to replace him is absolutely stupid. You'd be destroying a season of development for no reason. Like people do understand that, right? I'm as pro-tank as anyone, but not at all costs. You still have to care about actually developing these guys we do have too and you can't properly do that without having a big man who can do all the dirty work.

A functional C absolutely elevates this roster and turns a few close losses into wins.

But I agree with your second point.

Sure, without one there wouldn't be a functional team and maybe that's more my point. It's undoubtedly a fine line they're treading, but will it really make a meaningful difference in lottery odds? I highly doubt it. They're gonna be bad regardless. And I mean if Fernando/Boucher/Carlson or someone else can prove they can set screens, grab boards/be a paint presence on the defensive end to an average degree then by all means trade him now. I'm not married to the idea of keeping Yak at all costs just because. I just don't think it's worth stunting months of development time, especially when you're trying to develop a young lead guard in IQ too.

I think the golden number for a bottom 5 finish is gonna be at or around 25 wins. So if a functional C results in us say winning 30ish games and moves us from a bottom 5 to a bottom 8th finish, it absolutely has a meaningful difference in lotto odds.

Top 5 pick chances for 5th worst is 44.3%, compared to 8th which is 26.2%, that's a pretty huge difference IMO. The biggest issue to me isn't just the top 5ish pick chance, but rather the very likely chance of getting an 8/9th pick. A top 5 picked player could have a massive impact on the future of the team, vs an 8/9th statistically wouldn't be a game changing player. A few more wins isn't worth that to me.

If we are just looking for a functional C, then we could get a mid backup C elsewhere. Jak is too good of a player for what the current iteration of the team needs. Lotto odds were flattened, but the bottom 3/5 teams still have a noticeably better chance. And hell, if we have some creative "injuries" to achieve the same goal, no need to trade him. The finish is the most important part, not so much how we get there.

[Chandan]

No more evaluating! We know our starting 5 is fine but we have the worst bench in the league by a wide margin.

Define "fine". Probably still bottom half of the league in terms of talent.
Our starting 5 still massive upgrades to get to elite company.

[Brinbe]

A functional C absolutely elevates this roster and turns a few close losses into wins.

But I agree with your second point.

Sure, without one there wouldn't be a functional team and maybe that's more my point. It's undoubtedly a fine line they're treading, but will it really make a meaningful difference in lottery odds? I highly doubt it. They're gonna be bad regardless. And I mean if Fernando/Boucher/Carlson or someone else can prove they can set screens, grab boards/be a paint presence on the defensive end to an average degree then by all means trade him now. I'm not married to the idea of keeping Yak at all costs just because. I just don't think it's worth stunting months of development time, especially when you're trying to develop a young lead guard in IQ too.

I think the golden number for a bottom 5 finish is gonna be at or around 25 wins. So if a functional C results in us say winning 30ish games and moves us from a bottom 5 to a bottom 8th finish, it absolutely has a meaningful difference in lotto odds.

Top 5 pick chances for 5th worst is 44.3%, compared to 8th which is 26.2%, that's a pretty huge difference IMO. The biggest issue to me isn't just the top 5ish pick chance, but rather the very likely chance of getting an 8/9th pick. A top 5 picked player could have a massive impact on the future of the team, vs an 8/9th statistically wouldn't be a game changing player. A few more wins isn't worth that to me.

If we are just looking for a functional C, then we could get a mid backup C elsewhere. Jak is too good of a player for what the current iteration of the team needs. Lotto odds were flattened, but the bottom 3/5 teams still have a noticeably better chance. And hell, if we have some creative "injuries" to achieve the same goal, no need to trade him. The finish is the most important part, not so much how we get there.

Yes, again that's my entire point. And your thing about finding a mid backup elsewhere is easier said than done and doesn't meet the reality of our current situation. Maybe that changes at the deadline and someone emerges but we're not there yet.

[Basketball_Jones]

It’s a pretty clear evaluation season imo. Would be nice if we can somehow get Chomche minutes but overall there is a path for every one of the young guys and players drafted to play and lose. Brown being injured right now is only going to help that.

[DelAbbot]

The idea of keeping Poeltl as a "functional C" in order for our young players to develop is just another unsupported narrative.

Did Scottie not develop in his rookie season even though we had Khem "barely functional C" Birch?

[YogurtProducer]

Sure, without one there wouldn't be a functional team and maybe that's more my point. It's undoubtedly a fine line they're treading, but will it really make a meaningful difference in lottery odds? I highly doubt it. They're gonna be bad regardless. And I mean if Fernando/Boucher/Carlson or someone else can prove they can set screens, grab boards/be a paint presence on the defensive end to an average degree then by all means trade him now. I'm not married to the idea of keeping Yak at all costs just because. I just don't think it's worth stunting months of development time, especially when you're trying to develop a young lead guard in IQ too.

I think the golden number for a bottom 5 finish is gonna be at or around 25 wins. So if a functional C results in us say winning 30ish games and moves us from a bottom 5 to a bottom 8th finish, it absolutely has a meaningful difference in lotto odds.

Top 5 pick chances for 5th worst is 44.3%, compared to 8th which is 26.2%, that's a pretty huge difference IMO. The biggest issue to me isn't just the top 5ish pick chance, but rather the very likely chance of getting an 8/9th pick. A top 5 picked player could have a massive impact on the future of the team, vs an 8/9th statistically wouldn't be a game changing player. A few more wins isn't worth that to me.

If we are just looking for a functional C, then we could get a mid backup C elsewhere. Jak is too good of a player for what the current iteration of the team needs. Lotto odds were flattened, but the bottom 3/5 teams still have a noticeably better chance. And hell, if we have some creative "injuries" to achieve the same goal, no need to trade him. The finish is the most important part, not so much how we get there.

Yes, again that's my entire point. And your thing about finding a mid backup elsewhere is easier said than done and doesn't meet the reality of our current situation. Maybe that changes at the deadline and someone emerges but we're not there yet.

Also ignoring that although you get an 18% bump at 5th to 8th, it is ignoring that to get 3 spots worse will mean getting a worse roster. Sure, you can dump Poeltl now and get better odds (18% better), but there is no guarantee you end up picking a better player, or that the 5th + the "Poeltl return" is actually better than 8th + Poeltl.

I really wish we could do an analysis on the expected result on bottoming out and the higher chance to win the lottery vs not bottoming out and the lower chances at the lottery. I feel like the teams who don't completely bottom out talent tend to end up better long-term. It is not like the league is being ran by formerly tanking teams (and those teams also had the benefit of better odds for bottom teams)

[YogurtProducer]

The idea of keeping Poeltl as a "functional C" in order for our young players to develop is just another unsupported narrative.

Did Scottie not develop in his rookie season even though we had Khem "barely functional C" Birch?

Seems pretty clear that young players develop better with better players around them. That would include good players of all positions.

Scotties rookie season also had 3 starters, including Scottie, who jointly could handle some of the defensive C work. Unless you want Barnes playing full-time C, we dont have that now.

[DreamTeam09]

The idea of keeping Poeltl as a "functional C" in order for our young players to develop is just another unsupported narrative.

Did Scottie not develop in his rookie season even though we had Khem "barely functional C" Birch?

Which is why mgmt went out n got Yak, birch was washed and we didn't want Barnes playing a lot of C, which he was doing.
Kelly was brought in to see how he would work functionally with a stretch C, so he & the team can develop in a stable functional environment with some foundation. Which is what the few post above are conveying.

Cade played well rookie year & has been developing, but Det never had a true PG there to mold him. I'm sure a true PG would help their bigs as well. No foundation

[Brinbe]

The idea of keeping Poeltl as a "functional C" in order for our young players to develop is just another unsupported narrative.

Did Scottie not develop in his rookie season even though we had Khem "barely functional C" Birch?

wtf are you talking about? khem was a perfectly fine defensive C before he got hurt. just spouting nonsense with your chest full out is why discourse on this board has gone downhill