How is this not a super Mid plan? what's the pitch on our direction

[Tripod]

Huge difference with us and the Pacers is that Pacers traded away vets for young assets and picks. They traded an allstar Center for a 21 year old guard averaging 14 and 7 who turned into an all-nba player. They traded Malcolm Brogdan to get Aaron Nesmith and a first round pick. They traded Caris Levert to get picks that became Ben Shepard and Andrew Nembhard. They sucked for 3 straight seasons to end up with the 13th, 6th and 8th picks. So when it came time to trade for Siakam they got him for free without affecting their depth.

We’ve done the opposite where we’ve traded picks to save money and get veteran help, then tried to fast track a rebuild. Now we’re paying close to luxury tax for team whose ceiling is a first round knockout.

And to be fair, there is no one on this board who can say they predicted the Pacers would be heading to the NBA finals.

In fact, everyone, myself included , was critical of us giving up the Pacers pick next year because we thought they'd potentially implode.

Just evidence that so much can rapidly change in the league.

Naw you were hoping for the Pacers to implode. There was no rational argument for the Pacers to become a bad team next year.

Pacers were in the WCF last year. I think we were underrating them to not think they could repeat, especially since the playoffs are so match up dependent. It’s not like they’re a finals team out of nowhere. And they were already a top 6 team before adding Siakam.

Come on, let's be real.

They added Siakam and were actually worse in the 41 games with him, then before getting him.

Then the playoffs: Bucks had no Giannis due to injury then Dame also got hurt. Then vs Knicks, NY goes up 2-0 then OG gets hurt...Pacers win 4 of the next 5. Then got swept by Boston 4-0.

It's VERY honest to look at that and think that might be a 1 year 1 off due to those injuries other teams suffered.

But this year caught Bucks injured again then Cavs had games missed by Garland, Mobley and Hunter and Mitchell played hurt late in series.

It's VERY honest to think ahead of time, they beat the Bucks but then lose to Cavs.

But as we have seen, injuries are unpredictable. If teams are healthy, this is a Cavs vs Celtics ECF.

[Spates]

I don't think this roster is hopeless. I actually think there's a lot of talent. And if scottie is capable of putting together a monster defensive season I can envision the team being a 4-6 seed.

Barring roster changes I'd start with starting Abaji at 2 moving RJ to being a 6th man.

IQ/RJ/Shead
Abaji/Walter
BI/Dick
Barnes/Battle
Jak/Mogbo

Barnes has to hit 3's at a better clip. Bench needs to be bolstered with bigger defensive talent. A CMB, bryant, Fleming or Maluach might be exciting at 9. I can picture significant improvements and stagnation but if they're to improve stout defense is necessary.

[douggood]

Yeah, some of us having been saying all of this for years, they're betting everything on Ingram's questionable health record now because they are desperate. Since the title the Raptors have made the playoffs twice in 6 years and won a single playoff round, and that was with good chunks of title team still mostly intact back in 2020. That's a poor record for any highly paid executive that is looking for a new contract like Masai and Bobby are, there's immense pressure on them to get this team back into the playoffs and show things are moving forward in a positive direction.

They've literally done a worse job then the majority of fans would've on this board...

Id say the consensus of fans on here decisions leaned:

- Kept Norm Powell.

- Traded FVV, OG, Siakam earlier when value was higher for better returns.

- Committed to rebuild earlier (we were 5th worse team = Wemby slot before trading for Poeltl, shouldve went full rebuild)

- Not traded multiple 1st round picks for treadmill moves.

-Not traded top 10 pick for Poeltl.

I feel like there's more no Brainer ones.

If they get fired can't say the didn't earn it.

no brianers with help of hindsight.

[SFour]

I think there are 3 main pathways to upgrading to a contender

- hit on this years draft pick
-Barnes takes another step
-or make a big trade or multiple good trades

hitting on 3 of 3 is probably what it'll take to build that championship roster.

[Tha Cynic]

Good news - we can see if it works or not in a few months.

Also for the love of god, can we please stop comparing the Raptors to the new fad team in the nba every season? A new team has won for several years in a row now. There are multiple ways to win a championship. You don’t need to try to copy the previous champion’s formula every season.

This year is the year of the combo guard teams.

[CPT]

IQ vs Hali
RJ vs Nembhard
BI vs Nesmith
Scottie vs Pascal (Pascal cannot guard Scottie, like OG cant guard Pascal)
Yak vs Turner

And are you overwhelmed by the Pacers bench?
Toppin (Boucher/Mogbo)
Bradley
T.J. (Shead)
Mathurin (Gradey)
Sheppard (JaKobe)
Still nothing to declare with Jarace Walker, the prospect everybody wanted for Pascal but only the end of year 2 (our 9th pick)

it comes down to the coaching and finding out if our players can raise their game in the playoffs like a Nembhard. We need to know ASAP as I have had my doubts about IQ.

1. This is not how basketball works.

2. The Pacers are arguably better across the board anyway.

[Appostis]

Why not wait until at least after the draft/free agency before we flood the boards with these posts?

[nikster]

I was listening to the most recent Ringer NBA show and they brought up some good points:

- Replacing Siakam with Ingram is a downgrade and hes going to be 28 yrs old before the season starts.

- We are basically trying to build an offense around Ingram + Barnes (challenging/concerns) to try and be a 6th seed.

- We arent likely to add anymore top prospects to the core now that we'll be "middling playoff team" territory in the weak East.

When looking at this big picture it does seem abit pessimistic, and that this was a poorly executed rebuild + low ceiling plan.

I know it gets billed as "asset accumulation" but its actually not that simple as these decisions basically effect your entire direction.

Does it not seem that Masai again just decided on taking shortcuts when he finally had the chance to rebuild properly + with patience?

It actually won't be surprising if we get burned and suffer the consequences of these "team building shortcuts."

Can anyone provide some realistic framework to becoming a contender?

It does seem like somewhat of a depressing outlook from a "building a contender" big picture perspective.

Treadmill so Masai gets a new contract and Ed gets playoff revenue, that's the short term plan, with no foreseeable long term plan in place. Masai doesn't rebuild, he retools, this is no different. Cept this time he doesn't have a bunch of assets being inherited from a previous exec and only has his own mess to clean up.

We have better assets on the roster right now vs when Masai took over.

Posters acting like Masai was lucky to have the collection of talent the Raptors did at the end of 2013 season are delusional

[nikster]

They've literally done a worse job then the majority of fans would've on this board...

Id say the consensus of fans on here decisions leaned:

- Kept Norm Powell.

- Traded FVV, OG, Siakam earlier when value was higher for better returns.

- Committed to rebuild earlier (we were 5th worse team = Wemby slot before trading for Poeltl, shouldve went full rebuild)

- Not traded multiple 1st round picks for treadmill moves.

-Not traded top 10 pick for Poeltl.

I feel like there's more no Brainer ones.

If they get fired can't say the didn't earn it.

What were the superior offers we were getting for OG, Siakam, and FVV?

well if they started the rebuild after the Tampa season (when they should have) the offers would've been pretty nice.

Based on reports:

At the 2021 draft the Warriors offered Wiggins, the 7th overall pick & 14th overall pick (or Wiseman) for Siakam.

At the 2022 draft the Blazers offered the 7th overall pick OG.

At the 2023 deadline the Bucks offered Grayson Allen and a future first pick (reportedly in 2029) for Vanvleet.

I'm also going to assume Masai hits on most if not all high picks since he is a top 3 drafting GM with a scouting background.

So you're looking at the Raptors rebuilding Barnes + (Kuminga or Wagner) + (Moody, Sengun, Trey Murphy or Jalen Johnson) + (Dyson Daniels, Sharpe or Jalen Williams) + a lotto pick in 2022, a likely higher top ten lotto pick in 2023 instead of Gradey someone like Cason Wallace or maybe even Ausar Thompson, a pick high enough to draft Edey most likely in 2024 and maybe one more lotto pick in 2025.

There's a lot of variance here and what ifs, but given how good they are at drafting the realistic best case would be.

2021: Barnes, Wagner, Sengun
2022: Daniels + J. Williams
2023: Ausar Thompson
2024: Edey
2025: Bryant

Team would be nasty and probably make a team like Houston wish they could build as well, but Masai doesn't take full advantage of his edge over other front offices.

I thought you said the offers were nice? Wiggins was arguably a negative contract and Wiseman definitely was, Kuminga isn't that good to be excited about that package.
Sharpe for OG is a good trade? He might not ever be as good as RJ, let alone Quickley.

[ash_k]

IQ vs Hali
RJ vs Nembhard
BI vs Nesmith
Scottie vs Pascal (Pascal cannot guard Scottie, like OG cant guard Pascal)
Yak vs Turner

And are you overwhelmed by the Pacers bench?
Toppin (Boucher/Mogbo)
Bradley
T.J. (Shead)
Mathurin (Gradey)
Sheppard (JaKobe)
Still nothing to declare with Jarace Walker, the prospect everybody wanted for Pascal but only the end of year 2 (our 9th pick)

it comes down to the coaching and finding out if our players can raise their game in the playoffs like a Nembhard. We need to know ASAP as I have had my doubts about IQ.

1. This is not how basketball works.

2. The Pacers are arguably better across the board anyway.

1.Yes, This is how basketball has always worked. Can your coach maximize the talent. Can he find the formula . . Like Atkinson did at Cavs.
2. If you think that Hali+Nembhard +Nesmith are anywhere close to BI+RJ+ IQ talentwise then I don't know what to tell you ..that Pascal is a Bigger talent than Scottie!? Yak and Turner are even as effective polar opposite center..then the bench Mathurin? Toppin? TJ? Really?

[RaptorPride]

IQ vs Hali
RJ vs Nembhard
BI vs Nesmith
Scottie vs Pascal (Pascal cannot guard Scottie, like OG cant guard Pascal)
Yak vs Turner

And are you overwhelmed by the Pacers bench?
Toppin (Boucher/Mogbo)
Bradley
T.J. (Shead)
Mathurin (Gradey)
Sheppard (JaKobe)
Still nothing to declare with Jarace Walker, the prospect everybody wanted for Pascal but only the end of year 2 (our 9th pick)

it comes down to the coaching and finding out if our players can raise their game in the playoffs like a Nembhard. We need to know ASAP as I have had my doubts about IQ.

The thing is Halis playmaking and pass first mentality is what gives everyone on that team an extra kick. Gives them an ease of mind that they will get the ball and shots. So they are willing to play hard and move the ball knowing they will get it back if they are open. I just don't see anyone on the team that can do that. Barnes possibly but his play making is not on that level.

Hali has had bad games in those playoffs but he is certainly on the rise and has made big shots but talent wise on paper , you can't tell me they are better than us with BI, can you? Our starting 5 is more talented and it is not that close but Smith , Nembhard & TJ are playoffs performers.

It's just that Indi is a way better fit player wise and they got shooting. We got talent but I'm not sure how well they fit. Also who knows how many games B.I will be able to play with his injury history. It's really hard to say how it goes but I'm sure they will be a good team next year but long term we gotta still make moves.

[CPT]

IQ vs Hali
RJ vs Nembhard
BI vs Nesmith
Scottie vs Pascal (Pascal cannot guard Scottie, like OG cant guard Pascal)
Yak vs Turner

And are you overwhelmed by the Pacers bench?
Toppin (Boucher/Mogbo)
Bradley
T.J. (Shead)
Mathurin (Gradey)
Sheppard (JaKobe)
Still nothing to declare with Jarace Walker, the prospect everybody wanted for Pascal but only the end of year 2 (our 9th pick)

it comes down to the coaching and finding out if our players can raise their game in the playoffs like a Nembhard. We need to know ASAP as I have had my doubts about IQ.

1. This is not how basketball works.

2. The Pacers are arguably better across the board anyway.

1.Yes, This is how basketball has always worked. Can your coach maximize the talent. Can he find the formula . . Like Atkinson did at Cavs.
2. If you think that Hali+Nembhard +Nesmith are anywhere close to BI+RJ+ IQ talentwise then I don't know what to tell you ..that Pascal is a Bigger talent than Scottie!? Yak and Turner are even as effective polar opposite center..then the bench Mathurin? Toppin? TJ? Really?

Oh god, I thought you were just doing the “we have 3 advantages out of 5 in the starting lineup, so we’re better” thing.

This is much more embarrassing.

Hali and Siakam are better than anyone on the Raptors. If you don’t agree with that premise, there’s no point in listening to anything else you have to say.

If you want to argue about the relative merits of Jak, RJ, and BI vs Nembhard, Neismith, and Turner, that’s fine. We have the “better” players, but theirs are better in their roles.

[CPT]

IQ vs Hali
RJ vs Nembhard
BI vs Nesmith
Scottie vs Pascal (Pascal cannot guard Scottie, like OG cant guard Pascal)
Yak vs Turner

And are you overwhelmed by the Pacers bench?
Toppin (Boucher/Mogbo)
Bradley
T.J. (Shead)
Mathurin (Gradey)
Sheppard (JaKobe)
Still nothing to declare with Jarace Walker, the prospect everybody wanted for Pascal but only the end of year 2 (our 9th pick)

it comes down to the coaching and finding out if our players can raise their game in the playoffs like a Nembhard. We need to know ASAP as I have had my doubts about IQ.

1. This is not how basketball works.

2. The Pacers are arguably better across the board anyway.

1.Yes, This is how basketball has always worked. Can your coach maximize the talent. Can he find the formula . . Like Atkinson did at Cavs.
2. If you think that Hali+Nembhard +Nesmith are anywhere close to BI+RJ+ IQ talentwise then I don't know what to tell you ..that Pascal is a Bigger talent than Scottie!? Yak and Turner are even as effective polar opposite center..then the bench Mathurin? Toppin? TJ? Really?

Oh god, I thought you were just doing the “we have 3 advantages out of 5 in the starting lineup, so we’re better” thing.

This is much more embarrassing.

Hali and Siakam are better than anyone on the Raptors. If you don’t agree with that premise, there’s no point in listening to anything else you have to say.

If you want to argue about the relative merits of Jak, RJ, and BI vs Nembhard, Neismith, and Turner, that’s fine. We have the “better” players, but theirs are better in their roles.

[ciueli]

The year after he left Toronto Norm Powell played 27 games, next year 40, next year 7. He averages under 2 assists a game. Bad defense. 20 million was too much.

This is incorrect. Norm played 45 games in 2021-22, 60 games in 2022-23, and 76 games in 2023-24. I think you glanced at his stats and didn't realize that there were multiple entries per season due to him being traded in back to back years.

[VanWest82]

Well it goes without saying that the FO surely thought we'd do better than #9 as they were projecting this season. That was very unlucky, but there's still hope we draft someone that could become an all star one day.

Also, the trade wasn't Pascal for BI. We also got Ochai and Ja'Kobe out of it. It's too early to say how that plays out.

In general, it's a bit ridiculous to comment on state of the rebuild without first getting through the rest of the offseason and then seeing the product on the floor. Acting like last year's team (that hardly played together) will be next year's team including new additions (trades?) doesn't make a lot of sense.

Masai & co. have a history of iterative building success. They messed up in covid. I'd say we at least need to give this until offseason 2026 to see how things are taking shape. For all we know, we could quickly find ourselves in a 2018 lite scenario with a team devoid of superstars and no Lowry-esk connector, but super deep in terms of winning contributors and young players that could be packaged for a star or top 10 pick.

Our best bet is that the FO finds their touch again which opens up all kinds of paths to success.

[wegotthabeet]

What were the superior offers we were getting for OG, Siakam, and FVV?

well if they started the rebuild after the Tampa season (when they should have) the offers would've been pretty nice.

Based on reports:

At the 2021 draft the Warriors offered Wiggins, the 7th overall pick & 14th overall pick (or Wiseman) for Siakam.

At the 2022 draft the Blazers offered the 7th overall pick OG.

At the 2023 deadline the Bucks offered Grayson Allen and a future first pick (reportedly in 2029) for Vanvleet.

I'm also going to assume Masai hits on most if not all high picks since he is a top 3 drafting GM with a scouting background.

So you're looking at the Raptors rebuilding Barnes + (Kuminga or Wagner) + (Moody, Sengun, Trey Murphy or Jalen Johnson) + (Dyson Daniels, Sharpe or Jalen Williams) + a lotto pick in 2022, a likely higher top ten lotto pick in 2023 instead of Gradey someone like Cason Wallace or maybe even Ausar Thompson, a pick high enough to draft Edey most likely in 2024 and maybe one more lotto pick in 2025.

There's a lot of variance here and what ifs, but given how good they are at drafting the realistic best case would be.

2021: Barnes, Wagner, Sengun
2022: Daniels + J. Williams
2023: Ausar Thompson
2024: Edey
2025: Bryant

Team would be nasty and probably make a team like Houston wish they could build as well, but Masai doesn't take full advantage of his edge over other front offices.

I thought you said the offers were nice? Wiggins was arguably a negative contract and Wiseman definitely was, Kuminga isn't that good to be excited about that package.
Sharpe for OG is a good trade? He might not ever be as good as RJ, let alone Quickley.

What? Three lottery picks (7 & 14 in 2022; 7 in 2023) doesn’t preclude that Masai would have drafted the exact same three players. You honestly believe he wouldn’t have a higher hit ratio? What if those three players were Wagner, Jalen Johnson and Jalen Williams? Still feel the same way? Dude is a savant with picks.

[Basketball_Jones]

We’re in for a potential reset/shuffle of the roster 3 years from now. More immediate decisions coming on RJ and Poeltl. Quickley/Barnes/Ingram after. We could really go scorched earth and bottom out as all of these guys are tradeable assets imo. But think for now it will be an interesting and fun couple of seasons.

[HumbleRen]

He doesn’t want to tank/rebuild, he wants to build from the middle. Isn’t that what half of y’all wanted?

Draft, develop, consolidate for the right stars.

[SirKen]

I really don't know how to feel about the Raptors. Masai said playins for what but this team seems very middle of the pack kind of team. I can't see this team becoming a contender until we make some more major trades. I feel like he wants to just let them all play and hopefully they all put up nice stats so he can sell high this deadline or next summer.

I feel like this is still pretty risky move they are taking. You gotta have high belief in you developmental team to do this.

If we get a top 6 seed next year I would give this team another year together after that. If not I'm trying to trade who ever I can to get young players or picks but I don't know if Masai would do that.

While I don't disagree completely, can we please judge the team after seeing them healthy? Let's see what we have and then there can be another trade at the deadline, unless we get a massive opportunity this off season.

As for front office moves, I know I keep repeating this in these forums but keeping Fred over Norm while trying to maintain cap space for Giannis ranks the number one mistake that had domino effect on every other error onward.

[Scase]

Treadmill so Masai gets a new contract and Ed gets playoff revenue, that's the short term plan, with no foreseeable long term plan in place. Masai doesn't rebuild, he retools, this is no different. Cept this time he doesn't have a bunch of assets being inherited from a previous exec and only has his own mess to clean up.

We have better assets on the roster right now vs when Masai took over.

Posters acting like Masai was lucky to have the collection of talent the Raptors did at the end of 2013 season are delusional

Yeah man, who needs Lowry who is the GROAT, who needs DD who was integral to trading for Kawhi, Or Jonas and Ross who we flipped to get the best big man rotation this team has ever had. He did it all on his own, built the team from the ground up.