YOU wanted a DEVELOPMENT coach!!!!

[dozo]

This is objectively false but even if you wanted to amend and say he’s been the same player since two years ago when he made all star that was Darko’s first year as coach so you’d still have to give him some credit for that leap in play given it happened in a new system which afforded Scottie more opportunities to create with the ball in his hands.

Since it’s “objectively” false give me specifics on what he has improved on. His numbers have been identical for the past 3 years, and his efficiency was actually worse last year than it was the previous years. And that was in a tanking year when he was given the greenlight to do whatever he wanted.

He still plays the same way, and he hasn’t developed as a scorer at all.

His first year under Darko Barnes saw a nearly 5 point jump in ppg while improving his TS% and made an all star game. Last year was tanking year with terrible roster and they were clearly experimenting with certain skills with no focus on winning. This year Scottie is shooting a career high in 3pt%, TS%, is having his best defensive season.

Posters tend to overlook defensive potential and durability/availability, which is why they rank Mobley and Barnes below Wagner, Giddey, and Johnson (better scores).

SB added a step-through to his offensive game this year. No one has ever claimed that Barnes is a No. 1 option on offense.

MVP doesn't mean the most talented or #1 option on offense. Jaylen Brown won finals MVP and we all know Tatum is better player.

[tsherkin]

Posters tend to overlook defensive potential and durability/availability, which is why they rank Mobley and Barnes below Wagner, Giddey, and Johnson (better scores).

Nah, JJ belongs well ahead of of Barnes at this point, that much is clear.

MVP doesn't mean the most talented or #1 option on offense. Jaylen Brown won finals MVP and we all know Tatum is better player.

To be fair, Tatum was NOT better in the Finals. He was a horrendously inefficient volume shooter who couldn't buy a 3 to save his life in that series. He was definitely passing well, but not enough better to author the idea that it was a terrible thing to select Brown over him as Finals MVP. Tatum responded well to being used as more of a decoy, and that worked out well, but he was profoundly craptacular as a scorer in the series against the Mavs.

[Thaddy]

Posters tend to overlook defensive potential and durability/availability, which is why they rank Mobley and Barnes below Wagner, Giddey, and Johnson (better scores).

Nah, JJ belongs well ahead of of Barnes at this point, that much is clear.

MVP doesn't mean the most talented or #1 option on offense. Jaylen Brown won finals MVP and we all know Tatum is better player.

To be fair, Tatum was NOT better in the Finals. He was a horrendously inefficient volume shooter who couldn't buy a 3 to save his life in that series. He was definitely passing well, but not enough better to author the idea that it was a terrible thing to select Brown over him as Finals MVP. Tatum responded well to being used as more of a decoy, and that worked out well, but he was profoundly craptacular as a scorer in the series against the Mavs.

JJ is far ahead offensively but he isn't better than Barnes on defense. Scottie would need a massive improvement in his shooting for him to be on the same level offensively. JJ is also assisted on few 3pt and 2pt field goals.

I wouldn't take Barnes over JJ right now despite the defensive capabilities Barnes has. He needs to be better at getting to the line, grabbing boards, and getting more stocks to be in that conversation.

[tsherkin]

JJ is far ahead offensively but he isn't better than Barnes on defense. Scottie would need a massive improvement in his shooting for him to be on the same level offensively. JJ is also assisted on few 3pt and 2pt field goals.

I agree, I wouldn't call him AHEAD of Barnes on D. But his defense is good enough that the screaming chasm between them on offense leaves JJ ahead as a player overall.

[AreBe]

u got 1.
have fun.

You cannot fire Nick Nurse and then wonder why you don't have Nick Nurse.

The problem isn't the coach- the problem is that ownership, very similar, but not the same as the Blue Jays ownership, must learn from the Jays.

The Raptors' current ownership is very happy to fire everyone and anyone who cannot immediately deliver the fattest possible return and has no compunction whatsoever to keep canning people and finding people who will do the job for less until maximum returns are delivered. No capacity for delayed gratification. No capacity to stomach a rebuild.

Until ownership grasps the tent pole theory, absolutely nothing matters. Wth the tent-pole theory- we get delayed gratification, 2 to 3 years of sucking, and of eagerly burying players to the 905 or injury list, and eagerly get draft picks etc.

"In television and motion pictures, a tentpole or tent-pole is a program or film that supports the financial performance of a film studio, television network, or cinema chain. It is an analogy for the way a strong central pole provides a stable structure to a tent. A tent-pole film may be expected to support the sale of tie-in merchandise." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tentpole#:~:text=In%20television%20and%20motion%20pictures,stable%20structure%20to%20a%20tent.

[DelAbbot]

Didn't Darko develop Ochai into a solid 3&D wing last year? Did Ochai regress or is he just in a small sample shooting slump?

[Tha Cynic]

JJ is far ahead offensively but he isn't better than Barnes on defense. Scottie would need a massive improvement in his shooting for him to be on the same level offensively. JJ is also assisted on few 3pt and 2pt field goals.

I agree, I wouldn't call him AHEAD of Barnes on D. But his defense is good enough that the screaming chasm between them on offense leaves JJ ahead as a player overall.

You can probably say he has been the best of that entire draft class this season, including Cunningham.

That draft class has just been great with different players looking better each season.

[dozo]

JJ is far ahead offensively but he isn't better than Barnes on defense. Scottie would need a massive improvement in his shooting for him to be on the same level offensively. JJ is also assisted on few 3pt and 2pt field goals.

I agree, I wouldn't call him AHEAD of Barnes on D. But his defense is good enough that the screaming chasm between them on offense leaves JJ ahead as a player overall.

You can probably say he has been the best of that entire draft class this season, including Cunningham.

That draft class has just been great with different players looking better each season.

Interesting. Cade will receive regular-season MVP votes this year. Johnson has yet to play more than 70 games in a season, and the Hawks went 3–11 in December.

It’s possible he becomes the best player from the 2021 “generational” draft class, but let’s see a larger sample size first.

[Thaddy]

I feel if you replace JJ with Barnes they would win more. The stats don't show everything with Barnes.

[tsherkin]

You can probably say he has been the best of that entire draft class this season, including Cunningham.

That draft class has just been great with different players looking better each season.

It's an interesting discussion to start having, though that would primarily apply to this season, not overall. He's certainly exciting to watch.

Interesting. Cade will receive regular-season MVP votes this year. Johnson has yet to play more than 70 games in a season, and the Hawks went 3–11 in December.

Weird way to evaluate them, given the disparity in team quality between the two squads. The Pistons are the 2nd-best D in the league, 2nd-best in offensive rebounding and are 3rd in the league at generating turnovers. 3rd in FTr, as well.

The Hawks? They're the 18th-ranked D, because JJ isn't benefiting from the same level of roster support as Cade. And JJ's starting center and primary scoring complement has only played 14 games. And his starting SF has been kinda crap this year.

It’s possible he becomes the best player from the 2021 “generational” draft class, but let’s see a larger sample size first.

Larger sample is fair. JJ was showing it some last year as well and is in the middle of his breakout party, but he was also riding a shooting streak to start the season. So we'll see where we're at come the end of the year, though his approach to the game remains strong, as do the results.

If nothing else, it will make for a compelling and fun subplot to have two players for a comparison like this.

[torsport]

I don't know. We definitely wanted a different coach (compared to Nurse), and a coach that would develop talent.

I guess the question is, is how has Darko been at developing talent/coaching the team?

Part of developing talent is the dynamic between the assistant coach and the head coach. The assistant coach may develop the talent, but the head coach has to distribute minutes based on the players' ability to impact winning and playing to a standard. Trying to do both can be a challenge.

So, although we've seen some good and not so good from the talent, regardless of where you sit on that spectrum. I think we can agree is that we haven't seen a whole lot of consistency across the team. And I don't think any leader is doing a good job, if they don't develop consistency amongst their talent.

I'm willing to give it a season (well, it's not my choice anyway). This is the first full season trying to win under Darko and Raps are winning (much more so than the past 2 years). But seeing the inconsistency, I think will catch up, especially when games matter most, as we've seen in the NBA cup when it counted and sometimes in crunch time.

So yes we wanted a coach that could develop talent, but that doesn't mean we have to accept everything we see on the court. Especially if we're not getting consistent performance or effort from players.

[Badonkadonk]

Posters tend to overlook defensive potential and durability/availability, which is why they rank Mobley and Barnes below Wagner, Giddey, and Johnson (better scores).

Nah, JJ belongs well ahead of of Barnes at this point, that much is clear.

Not sure that's clear at all given Barnes is looking likely to secure an All-NBA D team spot and will earn DPOY votes if he continues how he's been playing through 37 games.

[tsherkin]

Posters tend to overlook defensive potential and durability/availability, which is why they rank Mobley and Barnes below Wagner, Giddey, and Johnson (better scores).

Nah, JJ belongs well ahead of of Barnes at this point, that much is clear.

Not sure that's clear at all given Barnes is looking likely to secure an All-NBA D team spot and will earn DPOY votes if he continues how he's been playing through 37 games.

And JJ is a lot better on offense, his game agqinst us notwithstanding. Of the two, JJ fits better into a broader array of team situations with a higher ceiling.

Barmes has been great for us so far this season, to be sure, but he is too reliant upon team context to enable his relevance.offensively (for the sake of their comparison).

[YogurtProducer]

Barmes has been great for us so far this season, to be sure, but he is too reliant upon team context to enable his relevance.offensively (for the sake of their comparison).

IDK if really agree here. If you were building a team and could just pick and choose who you want, which of JJ and Barnes are you pairing with:

Curry?
Edwards?
Doncic?
Jokic?
Giannis?

I think JJ is the clear answer for Giannis, but I think you take Barnes with any of the other 4.

[tsherkin]

Barmes has been great for us so far this season, to be sure, but he is too reliant upon team context to enable his relevance.offensively (for the sake of their comparison).

IDK if really agree here. If you were building a team and could just pick and choose who you want, which of JJ and Barnes are you pairing with:

Curry?
Edwards?
Doncic?
Jokic?
Giannis?

I think JJ is the clear answer for Giannis, but I think you take Barnes with any of the other 4.

Honestly, Id lean JJ with Jokic, Ant, Steph and Giannis.

[Psubs]

Posters tend to overlook defensive potential and durability/availability, which is why they rank Mobley and Barnes below Wagner, Giddey, and Johnson (better scores).

Nah, JJ belongs well ahead of of Barnes at this point, that much is clear.

Not sure that's clear at all given Barnes is looking likely to secure an All-NBA D team spot and will earn DPOY votes if he continues how he's been playing through 37 games.

Barnes is as good on defense as JJ is on offense, and vice versa. When starting a franchise I would still take Barnes as it's easier to develop offense as one gets older (Fox can shoot the 3 now). Also it's easier to find offensively gifted players.

I was Jalen Johnson's biggest backer pre-draft. I wanted to make a trade to get another 1st pick with him dropping.

[YogurtProducer]

Barmes has been great for us so far this season, to be sure, but he is too reliant upon team context to enable his relevance.offensively (for the sake of their comparison).

IDK if really agree here. If you were building a team and could just pick and choose who you want, which of JJ and Barnes are you pairing with:

Curry?
Edwards?
Doncic?
Jokic?
Giannis?

I think JJ is the clear answer for Giannis, but I think you take Barnes with any of the other 4.

Honestly, Id lean JJ with Jokic, Ant, Steph and Giannis.

Eh IDK.

If you already have an elite offensive hub, JJ's skillset is not nearly as important as an elite defender and still solid offensive piece like Barnes is.

[tsherkin]

IDK if really agree here. If you were building a team and could just pick and choose who you want, which of JJ and Barnes are you pairing with:

Curry?
Edwards?
Doncic?
Jokic?
Giannis?

I think JJ is the clear answer for Giannis, but I think you take Barnes with any of the other 4.

Honestly, Id lean JJ with Jokic, Ant, Steph and Giannis.

Eh IDK.

If you already have an elite offensive hub, JJ's skillset is not nearly as important as an elite defender and still solid offensive piece like Barnes is.

Inclined to disagree based on skillsets and best use case for those players.

[YogurtProducer]

Honestly, Id lean JJ with Jokic, Ant, Steph and Giannis.

Eh IDK.

If you already have an elite offensive hub, JJ's skillset is not nearly as important as an elite defender and still solid offensive piece like Barnes is.

Inclined to disagree based on skillsets and best use case for those players.

I mean, since 2023 Jalen Johnson averaged 20/10/7 without Trae, and 18/9/5 with him. Reality is as a 2nd option he is not going to get as much usage so his offensive skillset is not as important.

I think JJ is the superior first option. After that it is murkier

[tsherkin]

I mean, since 2023 Jalen Johnson averaged 20/10/7 without Trae, and 18/9/5 with him. Reality is as a 2nd option he is not going to get as much usage so

I don't think there's really enough sample for that to be conclusive of anything just yet, particularly since this is the first season of JJ's full break out. So 2023 is somewhat irrelevant, and then last year he wasn't fully where he is right now either.

Obviously, we can agree to disagree on this one, but in my head, JJ is still clearly ahead and generally a much more desirable offensive piece.