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Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread

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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#401 » by J-Roc » Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:03 pm

bstein14 wrote:According to reports there is a good chance the NFL lockout will be over within the next 10 days... just in time to set up a short FA, have training camps, and not loss any preseason or regular season games.

If this is true, it will put a lot of pressure on the NBA players to get something done by the end of August so the NBA doesn't miss any games. If not, a lot of fans will want to know why NFL players (who on average make much much less than NBA players and have much shorter careers) can come to an agreement while NBA players are still holding out.


One article I read said we should consider the two situations separately. The NFL is not claiming to be losing money like the NBA is. The NBA is claiming to be losing money, much as the NHL was a few years ago.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#402 » by Avenger » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:55 pm

Schadenfreude wrote:
McFurious1 wrote:^ This is great news for the Raptors if the NBA adopts this hard cap.


Do you really want a league where there is no such thing as sustained success, and winning is merely about waiting your turn to benefit from salary purges elsewhere? I still doubt that we'll ever have parity of that nature anyway, but it's a pretty hollow way to succeed.

its no less hollow than waiting and hoping to find a superstar in the lottery which is currently the only way to succeed in the NBA. Besides if you think that's what the state of the NHL is, you're wrong. Like Dagger said before, plenty of teams have had sustained success since the institution of a hard cap
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#403 » by Schad » Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:07 am

dagger wrote:There is still sustained success in the NHL, just not dynasties. Pittsburgh, Washington and Boston have enjoyed repeat success as high end playoff contenders. Ditto Detroit, Vancouver and San Jose. The system rewards good general managers and puts a greater emphasis on the draft and player development. It allows smaller market teams to remain competitive at a high level if they are creative and bold (see Nashville, Tampa Bay).


It rewards good general managers up to a point, but it also creates an environment where good teams are constantly fighting against the current to remain good. The NHL just saw the team that finished fourth in the regular season standings basically liquidated for cap reasons, the year previous saw the same happen to the Blackhawks, and next year might see the same happen with a more teams. That's what I think will ultimately lead people to loathe the hard cap, if it comes into being...it seems like a good idea until your team is forced to ditch a good, home-grown player for no reason save to preserve their finances.

It's not going to be as simple as 'waiting your turn'. A team would still have to draft well, scout well and make the right trades so that they have a team capable of competing. Plus the requisite luck in all those things.

How is that more hollow though than the luck involved currently? Teams get lucky through the draft or through trades(Pau Gasol).


The difference comes into play with retaining talent. Up until now, teams were rewarded for good decisions through Bird rights; they could never run into a situation where it was impossible for them to bid enough to trump another team. Teams will certainly have to make good decisions, but we'll also see plenty of instances where good second-start types fall into the laps of teams who simply happened to have the requisite amount of money available at a point when no one else did. A 13-man roster is going to be inherently less flexible than a 23-man one, which is going to make it far more difficult for those teams that manage to put together more than two good-to-star-level players.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#404 » by dagger » Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:21 am

If you want some good perspective and ideas on the labor dispute, read the settlement "proposals" of Ken Berger of CBS and Bill Simmons of ESPN/Grantland.com.

Both adopt a balanced approach, and both have some fan-friendly ideas neither side is suggesting publicly.

Both have a couple of common ideas - that putting the league on sound footing will require some player concessions, some revenue sharing, and contraction/relocation. The latter reflects the fact that there are some chronic financial under-achievers like New Orleans, and neither the successful teams nor the players should be required to make deep concessions to make them competitive.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/674 ... -nba-world


http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/15278727
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/1530 ... tional-cap
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/1531 ... f-solution
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#405 » by distracted » Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:43 pm

Schadenfreude wrote:It rewards good general managers up to a point, but it also creates an environment where good teams are constantly fighting against the current to remain good. The NHL just saw the team that finished fourth in the regular season standings basically liquidated for cap reasons, the year previous saw the same happen to the Blackhawks, and next year might see the same happen with a more teams. That's what I think will ultimately lead people to loathe the hard cap, if it comes into being...it seems like a good idea until your team is forced to ditch a good, home-grown player for no reason save to preserve their finances.


What team was liquidated for cap reasons? If you're talking about Philly trading away two star forwards, that was certainly for cap reasons, but it was to create the space to sign the top free agent goalie of the off-season. PLUS they got a huge youth return. That's not a liquidation. Trading someone to get room under the cap to sign someone you want/need more can happen in any type of cap environment, not just a hard cap.

And the Blackhawks didn't get liquidated in any way. They had a down year, but they only gave up depth, in favor of keeping 4 all-stars and 2 border-line all-stars. And even then it's only because they overpaid for a guy the year before who turned out to be probably their 7th best player (but highest paid). When you still have Toews/Kane/Sharp/Hossa/Keith/Seabrook on your team, I find it hard to believe you've been liquidated.

So far, I don't think there's been a single home-grown star that was just given away because the team was going to go over the cap.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#406 » by Schad » Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:37 pm

distracted wrote:What team was liquidated for cap reasons? If you're talking about Philly trading away two star forwards, that was certainly for cap reasons, but it was to create the space to sign the top free agent goalie of the off-season. PLUS they got a huge youth return. That's not a liquidation. Trading someone to get room under the cap to sign someone you want/need more can happen in any type of cap environment, not just a hard cap.


Yet under no other system would you see the fourth-best team in the league placed in a position where they'd have to make that choice and ship two home-grown stars (one of whom was their captain) for prospects in order to upgrade another position.

And the Blackhawks didn't get liquidated in any way. They had a down year, but they only gave up depth, in favor of keeping 4 all-stars and 2 border-line all-stars. And even then it's only because they overpaid for a guy the year before who turned out to be probably their 7th best player (but highest paid). When you still have Toews/Kane/Sharp/Hossa/Keith/Seabrook on your team, I find it hard to believe you've been liquidated.


They had to dump a tonne of players, which caused them to go from being the champions to backing into the playoffs on the final day, and there's a substantial chance that they'll lose Sharp after this upcoming year because they will not have the cap flexibility to re-sign him as a UFA.

That's what I don't like about a hard cap...if you are successful in acquiring talent, you get punished for it.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#407 » by distracted » Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:32 pm

I think we may have to agree to disagree here, because I don't see things in even remotely the same light as you.

Schadenfreude wrote:Yet under no other system would you see the fourth-best team in the league placed in a position where they'd have to make that choice and ship two home-grown stars (one of whom was their captain) for prospects in order to upgrade another position.


They didn't have to dump them to upgrade a position, they had to dump them to sign the best available player at that position. And they didn't even have to dump both of them (if you reverse the Richards trade they're still under the cap even including Jagr). And yes, you would see that in other league's systems. Could the raps have gone out and signed Lebron last summer without clearing cap space, negotiating a trade, or renouncing Bosh? Can you sign anyone you want in the NFL if you don't have the cap space?

In the NHL it's actually easier to go out and get an UFA agent prize than it is in the NBA, because you've removed the necessity of the player's former team trading him to you, and you can bury players in the minors to free up cap space (and get rid of bad contracts).

Schadenfreude wrote:They had to dump a tonne of players, which caused them to go from being the champions to backing into the playoffs on the final day, and there's a substantial chance that they'll lose Sharp after this upcoming year because they will not have the cap flexibility to re-sign him as a UFA.


If anything - Chicago is a case study on how it does work. They have been able to retain all their home grown star talent, and the best player they gave up was Byfuglein, who didn't even become a star until he got moved to a different position. They sent 4 guys to the all-star game last year, had two more guys who played in multiple all star games, and another guy who was good enough to make team Canada.

Schadenfreude wrote:That's what I don't like about a hard cap...if you are successful in acquiring talent, you get punished for it.


I personally think it's a lot better than the NBA, where it is extremely hard to acquire talent without the agreement of another team. That may not be by design, but it certainly is by circumstance (with almost every team over the cap).

And in the NBA, you're punished for drafting well as soon as their rookie contracts are up (you can no longer go out and sign any free agent you want). Any cap is meant to increase parity, which by design means it has to have a mechanism for preventing a team from getting any free agent they want.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#408 » by Kevin Willis » Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:51 pm

It's widely believed the NHL has the worse CBA of all professional sports because of min. cap. It forces team to lose money - not sure why we would model the NBA's CBA after them.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#409 » by Schad » Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:52 pm

distracted wrote:They didn't have to dump them to upgrade a position, they had to dump them to sign the best available player at that position. And they didn't even have to dump both of them (if you reverse the Richards trade they're still under the cap even including Jagr). And yes, you would see that in other league's systems. Could the raps have gone out and signed Lebron last summer without clearing cap space, negotiating a trade, or renouncing Bosh? Can you sign anyone you want in the NFL if you don't have the cap space?


Compare the quality of players being used to clear space. The Heat dumped Marcus Banks and an expiring Shawn Marion; the Flyers dumped arguably their best player.

In the NHL it's actually easier to go out and get an UFA agent prize than it is in the NBA, because you've removed the necessity of the player's former team trading him to you, and you can bury players in the minors to free up cap space (and get rid of bad contracts).


It is easier, and that's the point: the hard cap creates an environment where more top talents are available on the market, and that happens because their teams are not in a position to re-sign them.

Again, people like this idea now. They won't like it once most movement happens in free agency, and people remember that most free agents don't want to come here. All that stuff about how we have to overpay to get players? Magnify it and apply a system where overpaying a guy can leave a team utterly screwed for several years.

Schadenfreude wrote:If anything - Chicago is a case study on how it does work. They have been able to retain all their home grown star talent, and the best player they gave up was Byfuglein, who didn't even become a star until he got moved to a different position. They sent 4 guys to the all-star game last year, had two more guys who played in multiple all star games, and another guy who was good enough to make team Canada.


...but they went from being the second-best team in the regular season to sneaking into the playoffs and getting turfed in the first round, and their adventures with the cap aren't yet over.

Schadenfreude wrote:I personally think it's a lot better than the NBA, where it is extremely hard to acquire talent without the agreement of another team. That may not be by design, but it certainly is by circumstance (with almost every team over the cap).


I like that system. I like the fact that the majority of talent is acquired through trade or the draft, rather than simply being in the right place at the right time when a capped-out team is forced to lose a good player.

And in the NBA, you're punished for drafting well as soon as their rookie contracts are up (you can no longer go out and sign any free agent you want).


But you can always retain your own talent...in fact, the system is constructed so that you can always trump any bid for your own talent. Imagine a scenario where we draft a top-notch star in 2012, and Davis, Valanciunas and DeRozan blow up. By the time they hit their primes and move off rookie scale, we'd be forced to ditch at least one of them. I'm not fond of the idea that doing too well means that having to purge talent.

Any cap is meant to increase parity, which by design means it has to have a mechanism for preventing a team from getting any free agent they want.[/quote]

We already have a system that prevents teams from getting any free agent they want. It's also worth mentioning that the one time parity was turned on its head through free agency -- the building of the Heat -- could have occurred under a hard cap, as well.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#410 » by DG88 » Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:35 pm

Things are starting to look ugly
The National Basketball Players Association has amended the unfair labor practices charge it filed against the NBA with the National Labor Relations Board to include an allegation that the league canceled the annual summer league without bargaining with the union, as it was required to do.

Additionally, the NBPA, in the amended charge filed with the board on July 1, said the NBA carried out its “threat” to lock players out despite there not being an impasse in the negotiations.

“The NBA has asserted no (and has no) legally sufficient business justification and they have admitted in negotiations that the lockout will cost them approximately $1.5 billion per year,” the amended charge states.

The NBA declined comment on the amended charge.



Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/21 ... z1RwAIlBKZ
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#411 » by PHANTOMPHOENIX » Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:03 am

I have to agree with Scadenfreude on this.

I am not fond of blowing up a team you have built from scratch because you can no longer pay for them under a hard cap.

I want a flexable cap where teams actually make trades, no more lopsided trades. As well no more exception for teams over the Cap. You can only go over to sign your own FA (player who has been on your roster for at least a year).

I also want some kind of loyalty bonus. For example, team can pay an additional 10% to its own FA player that has been on the team for at minimum 3 years. This 10% would not count against the cap but player would lose the 10% once traded to another team.


Basically, I want teams to build through the draft or REAL trades (Talent gets exchanged, not just capspace/expiring contracts)
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#412 » by J-Roc » Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:29 am

Who cares about rewarding GM's and dynasties. Let's worry about fans, and give fans a shot every few years. Dynasty systems haven't worked out lately for Toronto.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#413 » by darth_federer » Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:55 am

I agree with Schad in that hard cap's force teams to get rid of good players somewhat unfairly and that its a bad system for us. With Colangelo's propensity to give out horrible contracts to mediocre players that dooms you for years in a hard cap system. We arent a small market team in any sense of the world and should expect better. All of us here should want a unlimited or flex cap.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#414 » by J-Roc » Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:57 am

darth_federer wrote:I agree with Schad in that hard cap's force teams to get rid of good players somewhat unfairly and that its a bad system for us. With Colangelo's propensity to give out horrible contracts to mediocre players that dooms you for years in a hard cap system. We arent a small market team in any sense of the world and should expect better. All of us here should want a unlimited or flex cap.


We can also get rid of Colangelo. We shouldn't have a GM who needs to be handcuffed.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#415 » by The Duke » Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:39 am

I dont see why we would want a unlimied of flex cap

-we tend not to go into lux tax anyways
-only free agent players we are getting are crap (that wont change)
-its true that our good players could freely go to other teams if we cant overpay them anymore, but that was never "really" a problem. As long as they allow for the original team to be able to offer the most years garuanteed years (and in theory money - even at the lower amount under new CBA) things will be fine.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#416 » by Evermore » Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:10 am

Schadenfreude wrote:
distracted wrote:What team was liquidated for cap reasons? If you're talking about Philly trading away two star forwards, that was certainly for cap reasons, but it was to create the space to sign the top free agent goalie of the off-season. PLUS they got a huge youth return. That's not a liquidation. Trading someone to get room under the cap to sign someone you want/need more can happen in any type of cap environment, not just a hard cap.


Yet under no other system would you see the fourth-best team in the league placed in a position where they'd have to make that choice and ship two home-grown stars (one of whom was their captain) for prospects in order to upgrade another position.

And the Blackhawks didn't get liquidated in any way. They had a down year, but they only gave up depth, in favor of keeping 4 all-stars and 2 border-line all-stars. And even then it's only because they overpaid for a guy the year before who turned out to be probably their 7th best player (but highest paid). When you still have Toews/Kane/Sharp/Hossa/Keith/Seabrook on your team, I find it hard to believe you've been liquidated.


They had to dump a tonne of players, which caused them to go from being the champions to backing into the playoffs on the final day, and there's a substantial chance that they'll lose Sharp after this upcoming year because they will not have the cap flexibility to re-sign him as a UFA.

That's what I don't like about a hard cap...if you are successful in acquiring talent, you get punished for it.



Excellent point referencing the Campbell contract...

7 million per, right?

That's definitely a cap space killer...
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#417 » by WhatsaTDot » Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:20 am

An unlimited cap would be disastrous for us. The Raptors aren't run as a trophy franchise.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#418 » by lucky777s » Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:02 pm

knickerbocker2k2 wrote:
NH wrote:Help me out here; why would the players want to decertify their union? Isn't the union helping them get the pay they want?


As it stands the union is primarily helping owners/and middle class NBA players, which constitutes the majority of the players. If the owners keep pushing these drastic changes (Hard cap at around $45-50M) what it will do is essentially kill the "middle class" of the nba, teams will fill their roster with one or two superstars still making mega bucks and fill the rest of the roster with near minimum contracts (probably in the $1-2M range).

At this point it makes no sense to have union anymore. The whole of point having union is to protect the average player. There is a point in which union will feel that they are better off without. If they decertify the league can't do these like hard caps, minimum/max salary, etc. Each player will have to negotiations for benefits and salary without any restrictions on either party. So a player could in theory play for $100M per year or $10,000.

IMO this route would be very risky for the NBA and bad for the league. If it comes down this they'll definitely not be a season next year as these will go to the legal court and that will take a sometime. I think owners are playing a dangerous game if they think they can force the players into a bad deal.



I think your post reflects your logical reasoning of the situation but does not reflect the true reason decertification is on the table or how it would affect salaries.

It is strictly a bargaining ploy by the union to try and bring in US anti-trust legislation against the league. The NFL court case made significant rulings about the same issue. The court found that it was laughable for the union to claim collusion and anti-trust behaviour on the part of owners after decades of collective bargaining together and still being involved in bargaining at some levels. It is a transparent ploy with no teeth to it.

Plus, with no CBA and no union to bargain with it would be possible for the league to set salary restrictions on its teams unilaterally that would no doubt be much harsher than a negotiated settlement with a players union. Individual owners could probably fight that in court but that is very unlikely given they are all committed to improve the financials of the league.

No, the union does not want to really decertify. And I don't think they will. Its about as likely as seeing hundreds of nba players go to Europe and play for 10% of their current salary and risking injury. They could offer the nba owners a deal even better than what the owners want and still make 2-3 times what they could ever make in Europe while staying home in America.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#419 » by ranger001 » Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:22 pm

Ponchos wrote:The key lies in the word "extra".

It is possible that they find themselves at the end of the season with insufficient escrow funds to cover the overage. If this happens, then the discrepancy is made up by deducting EXTRA money from the players the following season.


The escrow is calculated before the season starts. Any overage is added to the initial escrow estimate (ie. duducting EXTRA money, ie. in addition to the normal escrow amount.)


Hey Ponchos just wanted to let you know you were wrong about this also. The players never get more than the escrow percentage deducted from their paychecks. The extra money is only taken if the overage is below the escrow the next year. So it IS theoretically possible for the players to get more than 57% every year.

You're welcome.
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Re: Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread 

Post#420 » by Schad » Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:05 pm

ranger001 wrote:
Ponchos wrote:The key lies in the word "extra".

It is possible that they find themselves at the end of the season with insufficient escrow funds to cover the overage. If this happens, then the discrepancy is made up by deducting EXTRA money from the players the following season.


The escrow is calculated before the season starts. Any overage is added to the initial escrow estimate (ie. duducting EXTRA money, ie. in addition to the normal escrow amount.)


Hey Ponchos just wanted to let you know you were wrong about this also. The players never get more than the escrow percentage deducted from their paychecks. The extra money is only taken if the overage is below the escrow the next year. So it IS theoretically possible for the players to get more than 57% every year.

You're welcome.


Yeah, it's also possible for them to get less than 57%, and indeed it happened this year.
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