The Tank Debate Thread

[Raps in 4]

I don't see how this Raptors team is capable of replicating the Hawks of the last 3-4 years... which is a 50+ win team while our 2 (arguably) best players are going to be UFAs in a year's time.

That's where Masai comes in and does his job like a GM is supposed to.

This is your argument in every thread. You're expecting a GM, with a capped out roster of mediocre talents, to somehow make moves that will push us to 50+ wins. That is the very definition of a pipedream.

[CoachJReturns]

I don't see how this Raptors team is capable of replicating the Hawks of the last 3-4 years... which is a 50+ win team while our 2 (arguably) best players are going to be UFAs in a year's time.

That's where Masai comes in and does his job like a GM is supposed to.

This is your argument in every thread. You're expecting a GM, with a capped out roster of mediocre talents, to somehow make moves that will push us to 50+ wins. That is the very definition of a pipedream.

Wait....You think our expectations of the Messiah are too high? lol. I know. We ask way too much of the guy. Even Red Auerbach would have had trouble meeting some of our fans expectations.

[Reignman]

I don't see how this Raptors team is capable of replicating the Hawks of the last 3-4 years... which is a 50+ win team while our 2 (arguably) best players are going to be UFAs in a year's time.

That's where Masai comes in and does his job like a GM is supposed to.

This is your argument in every thread. You're expecting a GM, with a capped out roster of mediocre talents, to somehow make moves that will push us to 50+ wins. That is the very definition of a pipedream.

If you watch the NBA there are many teams that have gone this exact route from situations even worse than Masai is in. Just go down the list of teams in the playoffs and more than half of them have been built this way.

Considering Masai doesn't seem to be in a rush to go in a different direction I have to assume he doesn't agree with you. Maybe he plans to re-sign both Gay and Lowry if they have good seasons and the team meets his expectations? Maybe JV takes a big step forward? There's so many things that could happen to determine our future course that it's not even worth discussing at this point.

And as I keep saying, tanking might be the option he chooses if the roster doesn't meet his expectations. It's another option.

My issue is throwing away all of our options and locking ourselves into the one option where the rate of failure is much much higher than the rate of success. Whereas some of the other options have a much higher rate of success as we see all around the league.

Don't throw away options when you don't have to, that's why I'm not onboard with tanking this summer.

[Basketball_Jones]

The way I look at it, Miami's reign will be coming to a close pretty soon and we should be setting ourselves up for the next couple of years. Not for taking a run at them now, unless of course a great trade comes our way where we land a super star. Either we get the dirty work over with now, or do it a year or two from now when it'll be prime time to take out Miami but we'll be too busy rebuilding.

Miami's reign may end if LBJ leaves but he's just going to start another reign with his new team. Then there's OKC in the West who will eventually figure it out and then there reign begins.

And then there's guys like D Rose coming back, etc, who already have great teams. And who knows which one of these teams ends up like SAS where they are dominant for 2 decades.

If you don't have a top 5 player (in the league) as the basis for your team, don't even bother talking about championships.

I'm actually not a championship or bust guy. I'm a contender or bust guy. So, Atlanta Hawks upside isn't what I'm looking for. And if it's top 5 player this draft upcoming is as good as time as any to try for one.

[Reignman]

That's where Masai comes in and does his job like a GM is supposed to.

This is your argument in every thread. You're expecting a GM, with a capped out roster of mediocre talents, to somehow make moves that will push us to 50+ wins. That is the very definition of a pipedream.

Wait....You think our expectations of the Messiah are too high? lol. I know. We ask way too much of the guy. Even Red Auerbach would have had trouble meeting some of our fans expectations.

Another childish argument. Messiah? Who's Messiah? Must be yours.

As Masai himself said, building a playoff team is easy. If someone feels that way, is it out of the realm of possibility that he could build a 2nd round team?

Not every GM is BC. I think you guys really need to get over that.

[BorisDK1]

Masai seems to be keeping his options open, whether it be building on this foundation or going the asset accumulation route like you've suggested.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt regardless of what route he chooses.

And I'm not talking about contender status here, just a team that can get into the playoffs, put up a good fight and maybe win a round.

Yeah, they're nowhere even close to that. They're a team who might - might - with some luck squeak into the playoffs and get promptly crushed. And we're in the luxury tax neighbourhood to even get that.

If Masai is worth his salt, he should be able to build that on this foundation. Whether that means trading guys for better fits, consolidating assets, development, whatever.

You can't build a winning foundation on any team that has Gay and DeRozan playing considerable roles on it. The foundation is exactly the problem.

Valanciunas and Amir and Lowry can stay (unless better alternatives come along). The rest not only can go, but they actively need to go.

You believe that team is several moves away, and that may very well be the case, but I'm willing to let it play out. And who knows, maybe Masai does it better than the way you're projecting or maybe he doesn't see what he likes and goes in a completely different direction. I mean, a tank job is only a snap of the finger away.

Not really. Ending up out of the playoffs for the sixth year in a row isn't that unlikely a scenario.

In fact, the likely scenario for this team is to be a first-round embarrassment with no draft picks of consequence or cap space. Long-term, what does that lead to?

My main issue with some of these guys is the championship or bust mentality. There's a lot of middle ground that many fans like myself would enjoy because I'm not just a Raps fan, I'm a basketball fan.

That's fine, but being a fan of the team doesn't mean you applaud the team having an outlook that's exclusively focused on the immediate- or short-term instead of to the medium- or long-term. You can't ignore either aspect in team-building.

[Raps in 4]

That's where Masai comes in and does his job like a GM is supposed to.

This is your argument in every thread. You're expecting a GM, with a capped out roster of mediocre talents, to somehow make moves that will push us to 50+ wins. That is the very definition of a pipedream.

If you watch the NBA there are many teams that have gone this exact route from situations even worse than Masai is in. Just go down the list of teams in the playoffs and more than half of them have been built this way.

Do it for me. It's your argument.

[CoachJReturns]

This is your argument in every thread. You're expecting a GM, with a capped out roster of mediocre talents, to somehow make moves that will push us to 50+ wins. That is the very definition of a pipedream.

Wait....You think our expectations of the Messiah are too high? lol. I know. We ask way too much of the guy. Even Red Auerbach would have had trouble meeting some of our fans expectations.

Another childish argument. Messiah? Who's Messiah? Must be yours.

As Masai himself said, building a playoff team is easy. If someone feels that way, is it out of the realm of possibility that he could build a 2nd round team?

Not every GM is BC. I think you guys really need to get over that.

I like how you throw the word childish around as if it makes you seem like an adult. Actually just makes you seem like a dick. That being said, being a 40 win playoff team is easy. I was saying that being a regular 50 win team would be a lot to ask given the current state of the team. ie. no cap space, few good assets, no all-stars. If you think it's not difficult at all to reach our team's highest win total in team history and then repeat it year after year, you should write a formal letter to someone of significance in the NBA. If you could create a convincing enough argument of how certain you are, you'd be the most in demand GM in all of pro sports. Sorry bud... I'm a sports gambler and I believe in playing the odds. This team has no chance of a 50 win season and Horford is not enough to get us there IMO.

[Raps in 4]

Not every GM is BC. I think you guys really need to get over that.

And I think you need to start producing concrete arguments.

[Reignman]

Masai seems to be keeping his options open, whether it be building on this foundation or going the asset accumulation route like you've suggested.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt regardless of what route he chooses.

And I'm not talking about contender status here, just a team that can get into the playoffs, put up a good fight and maybe win a round.

Yeah, they're nowhere even close to that. They're a team who might - might - with some luck squeak into the playoffs and get promptly crushed. And we're in the luxury tax neighbourhood to even get that.

If Masai is worth his salt, he should be able to build that on this foundation. Whether that means trading guys for better fits, consolidating assets, development, whatever.

You can't build a winning foundation on any team that has Gay and DeRozan playing considerable roles on it. The foundation is exactly the problem.

Valanciunas and Amir and Lowry can stay (unless better alternatives come along). The rest not only can go, but they actively need to go.

You believe that team is several moves away, and that may very well be the case, but I'm willing to let it play out. And who knows, maybe Masai does it better than the way you're projecting or maybe he doesn't see what he likes and goes in a completely different direction. I mean, a tank job is only a snap of the finger away.

Not really. Ending up out of the playoffs for the sixth year in a row isn't that unlikely a scenario.

In fact, the likely scenario for this team is to be a first-round embarrassment with no draft picks of consequence or cap space. Long-term, what does that lead to?

My main issue with some of these guys is the championship or bust mentality. There's a lot of middle ground that many fans like myself would enjoy because I'm not just a Raps fan, I'm a basketball fan.

That's fine, but being a fan of the team doesn't mean you applaud the team having an outlook that's exclusively focused on the immediate- or short-term instead of to the medium- or long-term. You can't ignore either aspect in team-building.

Man, it's like going in circles.

- If this team sucks as bad as you think then he can dump Gay/Lowry at the deadline and firmly join the tank race.
- Gay/Lowry/Fields/Amir is a combined 35+ mil all expiring in 1 or 2 years. In fact, other than Demar we don't have 1 single long term non-rookie scale contract on the books beyond 2 years. If that's not cap flexibility you'll have to enlighten me.
- If Masai moves these guys or lets them expire, he can go the route of FA or he can let this team sink to another high pick.

I'm not understanding the issue here after all this time and that usually means it's time for me to move on to a different topic.

[Reignman]

Not every GM is BC. I think you guys really need to get over that.

And I think you need to start producing concrete arguments.

I have argued with facts and numbers across multiple threads. It's you tankers that have nothing but the lottery to lean on.

That's as pathetic as it gets, gut your team and hope/pray. Facts aren't your friend buddy.

[hillbilly hare]

All you tankers were crying about giving up the 1st for Lowry but what the hell did OKC get with that 12th pick?

Maybe a 8th man rotation player if everything goes well? You can get that for the vet minimum or bi-annual exception every summer.

That's looking at things the wrong way round.

That pick, our pick, which ended up being the 12th pick in a so-so draft, is what Houston traded to OKC to get James Harden. That is what WE should've used the pick for. That should've been our trade for Harden. Except for our brain dead GM. But anyway, that is what accumulating picks, and using them well (i.e. drafting Drummonds and not Rosses) can get you via trade.

[TheRealBlizzy]

Not every GM is BC. I think you guys really need to get over that.

And I think you need to start producing concrete arguments.

I have argued with facts and numbers across multiple threads. It's you tankers that have nothing but the lottery to lean on.

That's as pathetic as it gets, gut your team and hope/pray. Facts aren't your friend buddy.

Reignman + Double Helix = The Wale of the Debate Game ... Always talking with big worlds, long paragraphs, sounding so profound, but really, you aren't saying anything!

Two plans I have seen from anti-tankers (DH/REIGN)

Trade 8 picks for al horford -> championship
Trade DeRozan for Marcus Thorton -> championship.

Good Plans, except when I posted a 3 way trade to help the tank and build a contender you can't respond to it, because you don't know any reasons why it wouldn't be better then our current team.

You are both so in love with this team that you will just try to discredit any notion of blowing it up by answering "YOU CANT WIN BY TRADING EVERY ASSET WE HAVE FOR TIM HORTONS COFFEE!!!!!" "25% #1 PICK HURRP DURRP"..

Good counter-arguments to the tank.

[Reignman]

And I think you need to start producing concrete arguments.

I have argued with facts and numbers across multiple threads. It's you tankers that have nothing but the lottery to lean on.

That's as pathetic as it gets, gut your team and hope/pray. Facts aren't your friend buddy.

Reignman + Double Helix = The Wale of the Debate Game ... Always talking with big worlds, long paragraphs, sounding so profound, but really, you aren't saying anything!

Two plans I have seen from anti-tankers (DH/REIGN)

Trade 8 picks for al horford -> championship
Trade DeRozan for Marcus Thorton -> championship.

Good Plans, except when I posted a 3 way trade to help the tank and build a contender you can't respond to it, because you don't know any reasons why it wouldn't be better then our current team.

You are both so in love with this team that you will just try to discredit any notion of blowing it up by answering "YOU CANT WIN BY TRADING EVERY ASSET WE HAVE FOR TIM HORTONS COFFEE!!!!!" "25% #1 PICK HURRP DURRP"..

Good counter-arguments to the tank.

Do you lie like this in real life or only because you're behind a key board in a basement somewhere?

[TheRealBlizzy]

I have argued with facts and numbers across multiple threads. It's you tankers that have nothing but the lottery to lean on.

That's as pathetic as it gets, gut your team and hope/pray. Facts aren't your friend buddy.

Reignman + Double Helix = The Wale of the Debate Game ... Always talking with big worlds, long paragraphs, sounding so profound, but really, you aren't saying anything!

Two plans I have seen from anti-tankers (DH/REIGN)

Trade 8 picks for al horford -> championship
Trade DeRozan for Marcus Thorton -> championship.

Good Plans, except when I posted a 3 way trade to help the tank and build a contender you can't respond to it, because you don't know any reasons why it wouldn't be better then our current team.

You are both so in love with this team that you will just try to discredit any notion of blowing it up by answering "YOU CANT WIN BY TRADING EVERY ASSET WE HAVE FOR TIM HORTONS COFFEE!!!!!" "25% #1 PICK HURRP DURRP"..

Good counter-arguments to the tank.

Do you lie like this in real life or only because you're behind a key board in a basement somewhere?

What now you want to act hard? Shut up **** boy.

What's the lie? That you guys lie every response and say anyone advocating a tank wants to trade every player for nothing? THATS THE LIE going around the forums from you and DH.

[TheRealBlizzy]

I wasn't sure where to post this or if it deserved its own thread.
This is a question for everyone, seeing as most people including scouts believe that this coming draft is the
real deal and has future superstars in the making. What if players like Wiggins/Parker don't live up to the hype and
become as good as say, Rudy Gay? I understand there are mixed feelings toward Rudy because of his contract, but its not like he's a terrible player.
How long have we been waiting for an athletic wing who is taller and good enough to score on the best defenders and also defend them decently? and how long have we been waiting for a guy who can take over in the end and make clutch plays?
The reason I pose this is because everyone believes they both are a sure thing. I understand the type of potential wiggins has on both ends of the court plus his wing span, but can someone tell me the difference between a player like Wiggins and Gay in primes(serious question) how much better can we get with Wiggins and a Pf like Amir.

I actually like the 2 year plan to see how it all works out, I think if we had a legit PF like david west/ horford and back up Pg (of course if all other players we currently have develop like they should) we would be contenders. I'm all in for whatever direction Masai chooses, but just wanted to throw this question out as it was on my mind.

Wiggins would probably beat Rudy Gay 1v1, today.

[akakalakin]

I wasn't sure where to post this or if it deserved its own thread.
This is a question for everyone, seeing as most people including scouts believe that this coming draft is the
real deal and has future superstars in the making. What if players like Wiggins/Parker don't live up to the hype and
become as good as say, Rudy Gay? I understand there are mixed feelings toward Rudy because of his contract, but its not like he's a terrible player.
How long have we been waiting for an athletic wing who is taller and good enough to score on the best defenders and also defend them decently? and how long have we been waiting for a guy who can take over in the end and make clutch plays?
The reason I pose this is because everyone believes they both are a sure thing. I understand the type of potential wiggins has on both ends of the court plus his wing span, but can someone tell me the difference between a player like Wiggins and Gay in primes(serious question) how much better can we get with Wiggins and a Pf like Amir.

I actually like the 2 year plan to see how it all works out, I think if we had a legit PF like david west/ horford and back up Pg (of course if all other players we currently have develop like they should) we would be contenders. I'm all in for whatever direction Masai chooses, but just wanted to throw this question out as it was on my mind.

Wiggins would probably beat Rudy Gay 1v1, today.

I'll take my chances with Rudy Gay because we have him, Wiggins we don't have and no tanker in the world can say we will ever.

[TheRealBlizzy]

I wasn't sure where to post this or if it deserved its own thread.
This is a question for everyone, seeing as most people including scouts believe that this coming draft is the
real deal and has future superstars in the making. What if players like Wiggins/Parker don't live up to the hype and
become as good as say, Rudy Gay? I understand there are mixed feelings toward Rudy because of his contract, but its not like he's a terrible player.
How long have we been waiting for an athletic wing who is taller and good enough to score on the best defenders and also defend them decently? and how long have we been waiting for a guy who can take over in the end and make clutch plays?
The reason I pose this is because everyone believes they both are a sure thing. I understand the type of potential wiggins has on both ends of the court plus his wing span, but can someone tell me the difference between a player like Wiggins and Gay in primes(serious question) how much better can we get with Wiggins and a Pf like Amir.

I actually like the 2 year plan to see how it all works out, I think if we had a legit PF like david west/ horford and back up Pg (of course if all other players we currently have develop like they should) we would be contenders. I'm all in for whatever direction Masai chooses, but just wanted to throw this question out as it was on my mind.

Wiggins would probably beat Rudy Gay 1v1, today.

I'll take my chances with Rudy Gay because we have him, Wiggins we don't have and no tanker in the world can say we will ever.

Rudy gay gonna bounce on yo dumb ass next year when he see's the team stay how it was

[akakalakin]

Wiggins would probably beat Rudy Gay 1v1, today.

I'll take my chances with Rudy Gay because we have him, Wiggins we don't have and no tanker in the world can say we will ever.

Rudy gay gonna bounce on yo dumb ass next year when he see's the team stay how it was

I'd be ok with that - we'd fire Masai and move on.

[TheRealBlizzy]

I'll take my chances with Rudy Gay because we have him, Wiggins we don't have and no tanker in the world can say we will ever.

Rudy gay gonna bounce on yo dumb ass next year when he see's the team stay how it was

I'd be ok with that - we'd fire Masai and move on.

LMAOOOOOOOOOOO