Official RJ Barrett Thread Part 2

[ash_k]

Player A
23.8/6.0/4.6
PER - 18.0
TS - 55.0%

Player B
23.5/6.8/6.1
PER - 17.1
TS - 54.6%

Player A is 3x allstar Jaylen Brown, while Player B is RJ Barrett.

RJ gets way too much hate. Kid is having an allstar caliber season IMO.

Edit - Browns stats where not much different last season either.

But you would notice that the hate comes from a lot of the same posters that were "Fred is not a Point Guard" for the all year, wanting him out of town and upset at Masai for not pulling the trigger on the "great" prospect Mann for him...The current leader and PG of the 3rd seed Houston Rockets in the Mighty West.
You have to read&take that "hate" with a grain of salt .
RJ and Scottie are great duo to build around, however whenever Gradey can stabilize his 3pt shoot at over 40%+ then the "Core4/Core3(-IQ)" could be re-assessed

[Hair Canada]

If we keep Dick, I don't see how Barrett can be on the same team.

Barrett is like Derozan that can shoot the 3 a little better but FT's a little worse. He might be the one packaged to bring in superstar for a championship run.

RJ ain't going anywhere right now.

We're still several years away from becoming a contender.

Maybe 4 years from now, when Scottie is in his prime, we move RJ for that final piece to a championship team.

OR maybe RJ ends up becoming that final piece himself, because you know... he's only 24 right now and hasn't even entered his prime.

RJ hasn't dramatically improved any part of his game since entering the league. Any improvements have mostly come from changing his role on offence. I'm not hopeful he's going to suddenly become an elite scorer after six seasons in the NBA.

I agree that we likely won't be moving him any time soon, but I am absolutely not hopeful that he has some sort of untapped potential. I think he is who he is at this point. And that's fine. He's a serviceable NBA player.

Let's see:

RJ's rookie season (per 36): 17ppg (47.9% TS), 4.8rpg. 3.0apg, OBPM: -2.9, DBPM: -1.5 (overall BPM: -4.3)

Rj this season (per 36): 24.7ppg (54.6% TS). 7.1rpg, 6.4apg, OBPM: 1.7, DBPM: -0.9 (overall BPM: 0.7).

I would call that a significant improvement

If you want to talk specific skills, he got much better at both going to his right and finishing with his right hand compared to his first few seasons in the league. The decision making also got noticeably better. Used to barrel into the paint with no plan B. Now a much more capable and willing passer (from about a 1/1 assist/TO ratio to about 2:1). And the finishing at the rim looks much better as a result. From about 58% in his first 3 season in the league to about 68% in his 56 games with the Raptors.

[YogurtProducer]

But you would notice that the hate comes from a lot of the same posters that were "Fred is not a Point Guard" for the all year, wanting him out of town and upset at Masai for not pulling the trigger on the "great" prospect Mann for him...The current leader and PG of the 3rd seed Houston Rockets in the Mighty West.

Most of those posters are the root of almost all the toxic negativity around here tbh

[Tha Cynic]

The good news is RJ Barrett has worked himself into a starter level/league average player on the Raptors. On the Knicks he projected more as a bench player based on how he was playing.

This team though has too many one dimensional type of players so i doubt we need to have long drawn out conversations about RJ Barrett. We will need to choose between him, Quickley, Walter, Ochai and Dick at some point. Ochai seems to fit a certain role well
(maybe bench), and Walter in small samples has been a good overall player who may project better as a starter as he grows stronger and if he can get his shot to fall. He has one of the better defensive impacts on the team as well. Maybe it's Quickley who eventually goes to make room for a more impact player like a Dylan Harper.

One thing i will say is, if you did not like Derozan, it's funny that you like RJ Barrett as a player and vice versa. They are so similar at this stage in their career. Their personalities are also very similar and they are both just good dudes who work hard.

[Hair Canada]

The good news is RJ Barrett has worked himself into a starter level/league average player on the Raptors. On the Knicks he projected more as a bench player based on how he was playing.

This team though has too many one dimensional type of players so i doubt we need to have long drawn out conversations about RJ Barrett. We will need to choose between him, Quickley, Walter, Ochai and Dick at some point. Ochai seems to fit a certain role well
(maybe bench), and Walter in small samples has been a good overall player who may project better as a starter as he grows stronger and if he can get his shot to fall. He has one of the better defensive impacts on the team as well. Maybe it's Quickley who eventually goes to make room for a more impact player like a Dylan Harper.

One thing i will say is, if you did not like Derozan, it's funny that you like RJ Barrett as a player and vice versa. They are so similar at this stage in their career. Their personalities are also very similar and they are both just good dudes who work hard.

What did Walter do to deserve a spot on this list or show signs he's going to be a good player, not to mention a legit starter? He's shooting it really badly (22% from 3 and 44% TS!), showing little ability or inclination to pass the ball, and playing mediocre defense at best. I get that he's a rookie, but right now he's one of the least impressive rookies even on a weak rookie class. At his age (20) RJ and IQ were already much better players.

[Thaddy]

The good news is RJ Barrett has worked himself into a starter level/league average player on the Raptors. On the Knicks he projected more as a bench player based on how he was playing.

This team though has too many one dimensional type of players so i doubt we need to have long drawn out conversations about RJ Barrett. We will need to choose between him, Quickley, Walter, Ochai and Dick at some point. Ochai seems to fit a certain role well
(maybe bench), and Walter in small samples has been a good overall player who may project better as a starter as he grows stronger and if he can get his shot to fall. He has one of the better defensive impacts on the team as well. Maybe it's Quickley who eventually goes to make room for a more impact player like a Dylan Harper.

One thing i will say is, if you did not like Derozan, it's funny that you like RJ Barrett as a player and vice versa. They are so similar at this stage in their career. Their personalities are also very similar and they are both just good dudes who work hard.

What did Walter do to deserve a spot on this list or show signs he's going to be a good player, not to mention a legit starter? He's shooting it really badly (22% from 3 and 44% TS!), showing little ability or inclination to pass the ball, and playing mediocre defense at best. I get that he's a rookie, but right now he's one of the least impressive rookies even on a weak rookie class. At his age (20) RJ and IQ were already much better players.

He is coming off a shoulder injury. He's doing everything well other than shooting and that should be expected to come around later once he gets comfortable. Gradey struggled the same way before breaking out mid season. Walter needs the same opportunity. So far we've seen he's good at getting to the FT line and he's able to create shots in the mid range.

[Scase]

The good news is RJ Barrett has worked himself into a starter level/league average player on the Raptors. On the Knicks he projected more as a bench player based on how he was playing.

This team though has too many one dimensional type of players so i doubt we need to have long drawn out conversations about RJ Barrett. We will need to choose between him, Quickley, Walter, Ochai and Dick at some point. Ochai seems to fit a certain role well
(maybe bench), and Walter in small samples has been a good overall player who may project better as a starter as he grows stronger and if he can get his shot to fall. He has one of the better defensive impacts on the team as well. Maybe it's Quickley who eventually goes to make room for a more impact player like a Dylan Harper.

One thing i will say is, if you did not like Derozan, it's funny that you like RJ Barrett as a player and vice versa. They are so similar at this stage in their career. Their personalities are also very similar and they are both just good dudes who work hard.

What did Walter do to deserve a spot on this list or show signs he's going to be a good player, not to mention a legit starter? He's shooting it really badly (22% from 3 and 44% TS!), showing little ability or inclination to pass the ball, and playing mediocre defense at best. I get that he's a rookie, but right now he's one of the least impressive rookies even on a weak rookie class. At his age (20) RJ and IQ were already much better players.

"At his age", IQ wasn't even in the league, and RJ had a full year of NBA experience under his belt. Unless you mean at the same point in their careers, which would make more sense.

Even with that in mind, RJ is a bad example, in his rookie year he was playing 30mpg taking 13FGA/g. But if we really want apples to apples.

First 13 games of RJs career he put up 15.8/5.8/3.8 on 46.7% TS% in 34mpg, with 14.4FGA.
First 13 games of JKW career he put up 7.1/3.2/1.5 on 44.2% TS% in 19mpg, with 7.5FGA.

We're not exactly arguing day and night here, half the production in about 40ish% of the time.

IQ is a much better example since they are in much similar situations.

First 13 games of IQs career he put up 9.5/1.7/2.5 on 51.8% TS% in 17mpg, with 8.2FGA.
First 13 games of JKW career he put up 7.1/3.2/1.5 on 44.2% TS% in 19mpg, with 7.5FGA.

Again, not exactly arguing night and day, virtually identical stats with marginally more production due to like 1 extra FGM a game.

TLDR; no, they weren't "much better" players. They were comparable, and also these sample sizes are stupid small for JKW. The whole argument is nonsensical.

Also JKWs advanced defensive stats are not even remotely close to "mediocre".
His on/off :
Opponent eFG% is in the 95th percentile. RJ 37th percentile
Pts/Poss 82nd percentile. RJ 36th percentile.
Halfcourt pts/play 69th percentile. RJ 70th percentile.
Putbacks pts/play 96th percentile. RJ 36th percentile.
Transition 46th percentile, RJ 8th percentile. 95th off steals, RJ 46th. 14th off live rebounds, RJ 5th.

Not to mention the eye test, for a rookie who has only played 13 games in the entirety of his NBA career, "mediocre defence" would be something to applaud.


RJ is a better player right now, and RJ might forever be a better player, who knows. I'm not even that high on JKW, but making any sort of conclusions based off his 13 games is pretty pointless.

[Hair Canada]

First, I prefer to compare by age, not by years of experience in the league. Age tend to be the main predictor for improvement potential (which is why older rookies are much closer to the final product even at their first year in the league).

Second, if you want a larger sample size at a young age for both Barrett and Walter, you can also look at their single year in college (with Barrett still being younger by almost a year):

Barrett (per 40 minutes, 38 games): 25.7ppg (53.2% TS), 8.6rpg, 4.9apg
Walter (per 40, 35 games): 18.0ppg (54.1% TS), 5.5rpg, 1.8apg

Barrett, at a younger age, was alrealy a significanly better player, especially as a creator for others and overall scorer.

I don't know where Walter will end up. Players have different development trajectories. Just saying that from what he's shown so far (college and NBA), there's not too much reason for optimism.

[raptorforlife88]

I don't know where Walter will end up. Players have different development trajectories. Just saying that from what he's shown so far (college and NBA), there's not too much reason for optimism.

The numbers are poor, but he came back from injury and he's shown some good skills. After Gradey last year I'm willing to be patient, especially to see the change from first half to second half of the year.

[Scase]

First, I prefer to compare by age, not by years of experience in the league. Age tend to be the main predictor for improvement potential (which is why older rookies are much closer to the final product even at their first year in the league).

Second, if you want a larger sample size at a young age for both Barrett and Walter, you can also look at their single year in college (with Barrett still being younger by almost a year):

Barrett (per 40 minutes, 38 games): 25.7ppg (53.2% TS), 8.6rpg, 4.9apg
Walter (per 40, 35 games): 18.0ppg (54.1% TS), 5.5rpg, 1.8apg

Barrett, at a younger age, was alrealy a significanly better player, especially as a creator for others and overall scorer.

I don't know where Walter will end up. Players have different development trajectories. Just saying that from what he's shown so far (college and NBA), there's not too much reason for optimism.

No one is arguing that RJ was a better player in college though, he went 3rd OA, and JKW went 19th lol.

Using per 36 makes no sense without context. RJ was averaging 18.5FGA, JKW was averaging 11FGA, so yeah, he's gonna have more points regardless. Whether or not you want to believe it, age and experience matter, we aren't talking about a 19 year old vs a 23 year old rookie, this is a 19 year old and a 20 year old, that full year of NBA experience is massive. I would hope a sophomore with 128 career games played would perform better than a rookie with 13, it's just such a disingenuous comparison.

Adjusting for things like role and situation, RJ performed marginally better in his rookie year than JKW has thus far, and IQ was practically identical. I'm not disputing RJ being better, I'm disputing your overexaggerated "RJ and IQ were already much better players". It's just not accurate at all of a statement.

[Indeed]

I don't know where Walter will end up. Players have different development trajectories. Just saying that from what he's shown so far (college and NBA), there's not too much reason for optimism.

The numbers are poor, but he came back from injury and he's shown some good skills. After Gradey last year I'm willing to be patient, especially to see the change from first half to second half of the year.

His lack of first step may limit Walter, but his mid-range shooting has been pretty good. He can probably take more mid-range, but I guess the system has been asking to take either at rim or 3s.

I don't think Walter is better than Barrett, particularly on offense, but I think he is easily fit next to a max player. I still have Walter over Dick for long term, and Walter seems to be a better fit with Barrett if Walter can improve his ball penetration and 3 point shot.

[Indeed]

The good news is RJ Barrett has worked himself into a starter level/league average player on the Raptors. On the Knicks he projected more as a bench player based on how he was playing.

This team though has too many one dimensional type of players so i doubt we need to have long drawn out conversations about RJ Barrett. We will need to choose between him, Quickley, Walter, Ochai and Dick at some point. Ochai seems to fit a certain role well
(maybe bench), and Walter in small samples has been a good overall player who may project better as a starter as he grows stronger and if he can get his shot to fall. He has one of the better defensive impacts on the team as well. Maybe it's Quickley who eventually goes to make room for a more impact player like a Dylan Harper.

One thing i will say is, if you did not like Derozan, it's funny that you like RJ Barrett as a player and vice versa. They are so similar at this stage in their career. Their personalities are also very similar and they are both just good dudes who work hard.

I don't see the comparison with DeRozan, because DeRozan relies on foul call, which is not in his control, while Barrett relies on rim pressure and got a 3. They might both better suit to be the 6th man, while Barrett is paid like a 6th man, so he doesn't hurt getting better talent at this point (shall see the next contract though).

As for Agbaji and Walter, they would be very good for the 3rd / 4th / 5th option, so they can be role player starter. That leaves Quickley, Barrett and Dick, and we might only keep one of these 3. Between Barrett and Quickley / Dick, it would be rim pressure (on ball) vs defense and shooting (off ball), which is easy enough to decide.

[bonjovi0308]

Reading this thread is like we are arguing if we should continue with Demar or move on and trade him when his value is high.

[LoveMyRaps]

Reading this thread is like we are arguing if we should continue with Demar or move on and trade him when his value is high.

No one wanted DeMar gone after his first all-star season (when he was also 24) where he put up 23/4/4.

[MEDIC]

The good news is RJ Barrett has worked himself into a starter level/league average player on the Raptors. On the Knicks he projected more as a bench player based on how he was playing.

This team though has too many one dimensional type of players so i doubt we need to have long drawn out conversations about RJ Barrett. We will need to choose between him, Quickley, Walter, Ochai and Dick at some point. Ochai seems to fit a certain role well
(maybe bench), and Walter in small samples has been a good overall player who may project better as a starter as he grows stronger and if he can get his shot to fall. He has one of the better defensive impacts on the team as well. Maybe it's Quickley who eventually goes to make room for a more impact player like a Dylan Harper.

Yeah, that's pretty much the way I see it. We have a plethora of SG's. Just let the cream rise to the top over the next 2 seasons & make decisions from there.

Also, I agree with Quickley. He may end up being the guy that gets shipped out. I would love a 2 way allstar calibre PG on this team. Especially one with size.

One thing i will say is, if you did not like Derozan, it's funny that you like RJ Barrett as a player and vice versa. They are so similar at this stage in their career. Their personalities are also very similar and they are both just good dudes who work hard.

I don't think DD had the ability to play off the ball. That's the key difference. DD is basically an iso player. RJ seems to excel when he is playing off the ball, cutting & hitting open 3's.

When RJ is missing Scottie & IQ, he has to play on the ball more......and yes, he can be a little frustrating to watch at times....kind of like DD. Frustrating in different ways for sure. DD was a foul merchant & relied heavily on the whistle, which at times affected his ability to get back on defense. RJ forces his shot inside when he should be kicking it out.

I think RJ has the more fixable weaknesses.

[TorontoBarneys]

I actually think it may come down to Agbaji vs. Barrett in the future, and not DIck vs. Barrett. I think DIck's ceiling projects him to be quite a bit better than RJ will ever be. The conversation between Ochai and RJ will settle around multiple factors like two-way impact, contract salary, and overall fit based on the other offensive options we have. We have to see what Ochai's next contract with us will look like, how much he'll want vs. what he gives etc.

But yeah, it's also very possible that IQ gets shipped out as the odd-one out at some point. Hell, it's possible 2-3 years down the road, we may find it logical to deal both IQ and RJ if Barnes really settles into full-time PG duties. DIck & Agbaji on the wings really help with their overall shooting. Depends on who else we draft/trade for in the coming years.

[ArthurVandelay]

RJ status in the league is going to be determined by his defense and consistency.

Should be no questions on his offense at this point, unless you’re expecting him to be the top option. He’s turned into more than I ever thought this time last year after the OG trade.

[Tripod]

RJ is 22nd PP in the league while having little help from our top guys missing so many games.

But what might be most surprising is that he has a better 3pt% than 11 guys above him.

Mind you he has the 2nd worst FT% on that top 22 behind only Giannis. Certainly an area he can improve on

[ash_k]

I actually think it may come down to Agbaji vs. Barrett in the future, and not DIck vs. Barrett. I think DIck's ceiling projects him to be quite a bit better than RJ will ever be. The conversation between Ochai and RJ will settle around multiple factors like two-way impact, contract salary, and overall fit based on the other offensive options we have. We have to see what Ochai's next contract with us will look like, how much he'll want vs. what he gives etc.

But yeah, it's also very possible that IQ gets shipped out as the odd-one out at some point. Hell, it's possible 2-3 years down the road, we may find it logical to deal both IQ and RJ if Barnes really settles into full-time PG duties. DIck & Agbaji on the wings really help with their overall shooting. Depends on who else we draft/trade for in the coming years.

Last season, i was bullish on Gradey's thread and his future success even when he was at his very worst..I just could not see how someone with his pedigree be a bust..averaging 18 in his 2nd year? Certainly not but had him as future Gordon Hayward(more athletic one)
This month RJ is doing 25.1ppg|7.9rpg|5.7apg|49.3FG%|85.7FT% at just 24; and at home 28/7/6/50/40/80 for the year...are you then saying that Gradey will be a future hall of famer?

[TorontoBarneys]

I actually think it may come down to Agbaji vs. Barrett in the future, and not DIck vs. Barrett. I think DIck's ceiling projects him to be quite a bit better than RJ will ever be. The conversation between Ochai and RJ will settle around multiple factors like two-way impact, contract salary, and overall fit based on the other offensive options we have. We have to see what Ochai's next contract with us will look like, how much he'll want vs. what he gives etc.

But yeah, it's also very possible that IQ gets shipped out as the odd-one out at some point. Hell, it's possible 2-3 years down the road, we may find it logical to deal both IQ and RJ if Barnes really settles into full-time PG duties. DIck & Agbaji on the wings really help with their overall shooting. Depends on who else we draft/trade for in the coming years.

Last season, i was bullish on Gradey's thread and his future success even when he was at his very worst..I just could not see how someone with his pedigree be a bust..averaging 18 in his 2nd year? Certainly not but had him as future Gordon Hayward(more athletic one)
This month RJ is doing 25.1ppg|7.9rpg|5.7apg|49.3FG%|85.7FT% at just 24; and at home 28/7/6/50/40/80 for the year...are you then saying that Gradey will be a future hall of famer?

"Here's a 10-game statline from RJ, this means that you think Gradey is a hall of famer in the future."
You have to try to be this dishonest. No wonder you're on my foe list. Twat.