Official Raptors 2011 NBA Draft Thread Part 9

[Reignman]

I don't know about that, as far as I'm concerned Bayless is probably a better "point guard" than either Knight or Kemba. He was also a pretty good floor leader from what I saw.

TBH, if I had to put my own money on the line I'd bet that Bayless would be a better point guard than either of those guys long term.

[Rhettmatic]

SamAmicoFSO Sam Amico
Enes Kanter slated to work out for Cavs next Tuesday. Also has workouts scheduled with Jazz, Raptors and T-wolves.

[ty123]

I don't know about that, as far as I'm concerned Bayless is probably a better "point guard" than either Knight or Kemba. He was also a pretty good floor leader from what I saw.

TBH, if I had to put my own money on the line I'd bet that Bayless would be a better point guard than either of those guys long term.

I don't think so. Bayless was far from a good floor leader.

[JamesNaismith]

Derrick Williams and Demar went to watch an AAU event on the weekend together.

Derrick and Ed Davis have been also working out together this past month.

Source?

I would try not to read too much into it although Minny really does have a logjam at SF and picking 5th probably doesn't change their board much....I'm sure TO could send someone like Barbosa along in the deal since Minny lacks a SG.

My only problem with that is there are a couple or so SFs that I think have even more potential then Williams coming out of next year's draft like Miller, Barnes and McAdoo. But I guess this would be a safer strategy and if that happens next year we draft BPA and just have a ton of assests.

[Rhettmatic]

I don't know about that, as far as I'm concerned Bayless is probably a better "point guard" than either Knight or Kemba. He was also a pretty good floor leader from what I saw.

TBH, if I had to put my own money on the line I'd bet that Bayless would be a better point guard than either of those guys long term.

I don't think so. Bayless was far from a good floor leader.

Yeah, there were the exact same questions about Bayless's ability to run a team and be a point guard that now are dogging Knight. Knight averaged 4.2 assists to 3.2 turnovers, while Bayless averaged 4/3. I'd say Bayless was a more polished scorer/ball-handler coming out of college, though.

Still, the hope with both prospects is/was that they would be able to figure out how to run a team. Three years later and I'm not convinced Bayless has or ever will. It's too early to say on Knight.

Derrick Williams and Demar went to watch an AAU event on the weekend together.

Derrick and Ed Davis have been also working out together this past month.

Source?

I don't know the source on the first bit, but Derrick Williams tweeted about working out with Davis.

[Reignman]

I don't know about that, as far as I'm concerned Bayless is probably a better "point guard" than either Knight or Kemba. He was also a pretty good floor leader from what I saw.

TBH, if I had to put my own money on the line I'd bet that Bayless would be a better point guard than either of those guys long term.

I don't think so. Bayless was far from a good floor leader.

Please explain in more detail. From what I saw, whenever a play would break down he'd huddle the guys and talk about it on the court. He would also go over to the coaches in play stoppages and discuss things. He's also the type to be a cheerleader on the bench and when things didn't work out and we lost, he'd always take the blame inthe post game scrum. To me, those are all signs of leadership and it was impressive for a guy that joined the team mid-season and didn't have a defined role until the end of the year.

If you're talking about setting up teammates, I saw improvement over the course of the year and his 7 asts as a starter kind of back that up even though it's a limited sample size.

I really don't see anything Kemba or Knight bring to the table that Bayless doesn't already have.

[Indeed]

I don't know about that, as far as I'm concerned Bayless is probably a better "point guard" than either Knight or Kemba. He was also a pretty good floor leader from what I saw.

TBH, if I had to put my own money on the line I'd bet that Bayless would be a better point guard than either of those guys long term.

Bayless is better at playing off the ball. However, DeRozan doesn't have a playmaking skill, but he is the most effective scorer to perform with the ball (actually he is able to perform with the ball at the moment, and he is lazy not going for offensive rebound or make cuts in between).

So the ideal role for Bayless is when we have a strong SG or SF who can create for others (James Johnson is a good fit, even his talent might not be the best), then we can have Bayless plays off the ball like J Jack.

[ty123]

In some of our most important games against good defensive teams this season, Bayless has failed to make an impact. He only made a big impact in march april which many scrubs do as well so I'm weary about those numbers. And he still doesn't get into the paint often enough.

[Indeed]

I don't know about that, as far as I'm concerned Bayless is probably a better "point guard" than either Knight or Kemba. He was also a pretty good floor leader from what I saw.

TBH, if I had to put my own money on the line I'd bet that Bayless would be a better point guard than either of those guys long term.

I don't think so. Bayless was far from a good floor leader.

Please explain in more detail. From what I saw, whenever a play would break down he'd huddle the guys and talk about it on the court. He would also go over to the coaches in play stoppages and discuss things. He's also the type to be a cheerleader on the bench and when things didn't work out and we lost, he'd always take the blame inthe post game scrum. To me, those are all signs of leadership and it was impressive for a guy that joined the team mid-season and didn't have a defined role until the end of the year.

If you're talking about setting up teammates, I saw improvement over the course of the year and his 7 asts as a starter kind of back that up even though it's a limited sample size.

I really don't see anything Kemba or Knight bring to the table that Bayless doesn't already have.

Kemba brings the mentality and the ability to break opponent defense. His change speed can allow him to run around and loose his defender, so opponent needs to rotate and create more open shot for others.

Bayless is good as to drive and score, and he is best plays off the ball.

[Reignman]

I don't know about that, as far as I'm concerned Bayless is probably a better "point guard" than either Knight or Kemba. He was also a pretty good floor leader from what I saw.

TBH, if I had to put my own money on the line I'd bet that Bayless would be a better point guard than either of those guys long term.

Bayless is better at playing off the ball. However, DeRozan doesn't have a playmaking skill, but he is the most effective scorer to perform with the ball (actually he is able to perform with the ball at the moment, and he is lazy not going for offensive rebound or make cuts in between).

So the ideal role for Bayless is when we have a strong SG or SF who can create for others (James Johnson is a good fit, even his talent might not be the best), then we can have Bayless plays off the ball like J Jack.

I agree, we will need to get more playmaking from other positions with Bayless as the starting point but that also applies to Kemba. Knight has the upside so we can't say for certain but currently he's in that same boat.

That's the thing about all 3 of Bayless, Knight and Walker, none of them have shown the ability to be primary facilitators, you're going to need playmakers at other position most likely all 3 guys because these guys are scoring PGs.

That's why I want Kanter, it gives you the option to throw it into the post and have the offense run through him at times so that the point guard isn't the only playmaker on the roster.

[Reignman]

In some of our most important games against good defensive teams this season, Bayless has failed to make an impact. He only made a big impact in march april which many scrubs do as well so I'm weary about those numbers. And he still doesn't get into the paint often enough.

What kind of impact are you looking for from a guy that joined us mid-season and didn't have a defined role until Jose got injured? I've seen him make an impact on many games and at times he was our best scorer. Hell, he lead the charge bringing us back against Detroit.

On a 22 win team you can apply your logic to any player and tbh, I don't see Knight/Kemba doing much more than Bayless. Bayless also attacked the rim quite a bit so I'm not sure what games you watched.

There isn't a single argument someone can make right now to say Kemba/Knight are going to be better than Bayless. The only thing Knight has is age (leading to upside).

[Indeed]

I don't know about that, as far as I'm concerned Bayless is probably a better "point guard" than either Knight or Kemba. He was also a pretty good floor leader from what I saw.

TBH, if I had to put my own money on the line I'd bet that Bayless would be a better point guard than either of those guys long term.

Bayless is better at playing off the ball. However, DeRozan doesn't have a playmaking skill, but he is the most effective scorer to perform with the ball (actually he is able to perform with the ball at the moment, and he is lazy not going for offensive rebound or make cuts in between).

So the ideal role for Bayless is when we have a strong SG or SF who can create for others (James Johnson is a good fit, even his talent might not be the best), then we can have Bayless plays off the ball like J Jack.

I agree, we will need to get more playmaking from other positions with Bayless as the starting point but that also applies to Kemba. Knight has the upside so we can't say for certain but currently he's in that same boat.

That's the thing about all 3 of Bayless, Knight and Walker, none of them have shown the ability to be primary facilitators, you're going to need playmakers at other position most likely all 3 guys because these guys are scoring PGs.

That's why I want Kanter, it gives you the option to throw it into the post and have the offense run through him at times so that the point guard isn't the only playmaker on the roster.

Actually Walker showed he can provide our needs in playmaking, but he is really undersize.
Kanter is good, but he is not quick neither, so I don't see any excellent prospect on this draft, but a starter or border-line star might be here.

If we want physical attributes, Jonas and Vesely (or perhaps BB) are the ones to go, but of course, we don't know how they would perform in the most competitive league.

[ty123]

In some of our most important games against good defensive teams this season, Bayless has failed to make an impact. He only made a big impact in march april which many scrubs do as well so I'm weary about those numbers. And he still doesn't get into the paint often enough.

What kind of impact are you looking for from a guy that joined us mid-season and didn't have a defined role until Jose got injured? I've seen him make an impact on many games and at times he was our best scorer. Hell, he lead the charge bringing us back against Detroit.

On a 22 win team you can apply your logic to any player and tbh, I don't see Knight/Kemba doing much more than Bayless. Bayless also attacked the rim quite a bit so I'm not sure what games you watched.

There isn't a single argument someone can make right now to say Kemba/Knight are going to be better than Bayless. The only thing Knight has is age (leading to upside).

Kemba is a better ball handler, pick and roll player, better court vision, more speed and better ball IQ and better at getting into the paint and a much better leader.

[Reignman]

Bayless is better at playing off the ball. However, DeRozan doesn't have a playmaking skill, but he is the most effective scorer to perform with the ball (actually he is able to perform with the ball at the moment, and he is lazy not going for offensive rebound or make cuts in between).

So the ideal role for Bayless is when we have a strong SG or SF who can create for others (James Johnson is a good fit, even his talent might not be the best), then we can have Bayless plays off the ball like J Jack.

I agree, we will need to get more playmaking from other positions with Bayless as the starting point but that also applies to Kemba. Knight has the upside so we can't say for certain but currently he's in that same boat.

That's the thing about all 3 of Bayless, Knight and Walker, none of them have shown the ability to be primary facilitators, you're going to need playmakers at other position most likely all 3 guys because these guys are scoring PGs.

That's why I want Kanter, it gives you the option to throw it into the post and have the offense run through him at times so that the point guard isn't the only playmaker on the roster.

Actually Walker showed he can provide our needs in playmaking, but he is really undersize.
Kanter is good, but he is not quick neither, so I don't see any excellent prospect on this draft, but a starter or border-line star might be here.

If we want physical attributes, Jonas and Vesely (or perhaps BB) are the ones to go, but of course, we don't know how they would perform in the most competitive league.

I've watched Kemba for 3 years, even in his first 2 years where he passed more, he still wasn't that good of a play maker.

And the reason I brought up Kanter is in respect to this discussion. he's the only big man in this draft that has post offense and can pass out of the post, that would take pressure off the point guards. Speed isn't much of a factor for a post player.

[bboyskinnylegs]

In some of our most important games against good defensive teams this season, Bayless has failed to make an impact. He only made a big impact in march april which many scrubs do as well so I'm weary about those numbers. And he still doesn't get into the paint often enough.

actually, one thing Bayless certainly does do at an elite level is splitting doubles and getting into the paint to draw contact, as his 0.40 FTA/FGA shows. That's #9 among PGs (only behind Sessions, Billups, Harris, Stuckey, Lou Williams, Westbrook, George Hill, and CP3). His averages after the all-star break were even higher, with a FTA/FGA of 0.473 --behind only Sessions and Billups. In fact, that 0.473 FTA/FGA would put him at #19 in the entire league... and 11 of those guys are bigs.

[Reignman]

In some of our most important games against good defensive teams this season, Bayless has failed to make an impact. He only made a big impact in march april which many scrubs do as well so I'm weary about those numbers. And he still doesn't get into the paint often enough.

What kind of impact are you looking for from a guy that joined us mid-season and didn't have a defined role until Jose got injured? I've seen him make an impact on many games and at times he was our best scorer. Hell, he lead the charge bringing us back against Detroit.

On a 22 win team you can apply your logic to any player and tbh, I don't see Knight/Kemba doing much more than Bayless. Bayless also attacked the rim quite a bit so I'm not sure what games you watched.

There isn't a single argument someone can make right now to say Kemba/Knight are going to be better than Bayless. The only thing Knight has is age (leading to upside).

Kemba is a better ball handler, pick and roll player, better court vision, more speed and better ball IQ and better at getting into the paint and a much better leader.

- Kemba's handle is slightly better.

- PnR player? really? I've watched him for 3 years and the only thing he does with the pick is try to score, Bayless can do that as well. Passing out of the PnR is where the PG skills come into play and neither has shown much ability in that regard.

Court vision? Kemba's court vision is definitely not "better" than Bayless'. At best, it's comparable but I don't even feel good about saying that having him seen him so much.

- IQ? I'm not even sure how you can qualify that but I'd love to know.

- Leadership? Again, not sure how you're going to qualify that but I'd love to know.


To be perfectly honest, the only thing I've seen Kemba better at is that he might be better at creating space for himself with his handle/speed. Unfortunately I've watched Kemba A LOT over 3 years so it's hard for me to buy some of this stuff.

[Indeed]

I agree, we will need to get more playmaking from other positions with Bayless as the starting point but that also applies to Kemba. Knight has the upside so we can't say for certain but currently he's in that same boat.

That's the thing about all 3 of Bayless, Knight and Walker, none of them have shown the ability to be primary facilitators, you're going to need playmakers at other position most likely all 3 guys because these guys are scoring PGs.

That's why I want Kanter, it gives you the option to throw it into the post and have the offense run through him at times so that the point guard isn't the only playmaker on the roster.

Actually Walker showed he can provide our needs in playmaking, but he is really undersize.
Kanter is good, but he is not quick neither, so I don't see any excellent prospect on this draft, but a starter or border-line star might be here.

If we want physical attributes, Jonas and Vesely (or perhaps BB) are the ones to go, but of course, we don't know how they would perform in the most competitive league.

I've watched Kemba for 3 years, even in his first 2 years where he passed more, he still wasn't that good of a play maker.

And the reason I brought up Kanter is in respect to this discussion. he's the only big man in this draft that has post offense and can pass out of the post, that would take pressure off the point guards. Speed isn't much of a factor for a post player.

Sorry I mean athleticism. I agree that Kanter is the most NBA ready skill big. At this point, we have no compliment pieces with Kanter, but we can definitely get those from FA/trades. His current best fit would be Amir, who has the athleticism and defense. Either Davis (lack of quickness) and Bargnani (lack of shot blocking) fit with him at this moment. So I prefer BB if we can obtain some good assets in trades.

As for Kemba, you could be right.

[Truthrising]

That's the thing about all 3 of Bayless, Knight and Walker, none of them have shown the ability to be primary facilitators, you're going to need playmakers at other position most likely all 3 guys because these guys are scoring PGs.

That's why I want Kanter, it gives you the option to throw it into the post and have the offense run through him at times so that the point guard isn't the only playmaker on the roster.

This is pretty much the reason why I don't want any of the PG's when we already have a serviceable pg in Bayless and he still hasn't been given the opportunity to show what he can really do. Why not a draft a position of need the most, which is the center position - imo - it'd be great if we drafted Kanter, if not than i'd be happy w/ JV or Biyombo.

[ty123]

In almost all our games against Boston, Miami and LA Bayless has had little to no impact. He struggles to score and make plays for teammates. If we happen to ever make the playoffs, what if Bayless happens to "disappear" again?

There was only one good game I can think of against Chicago later on in the season.

[Rhettmatic]

Sorry I mean athleticism. I agree that Kanter is the most NBA ready skill big. At this point, we have no compliment pieces with Kanter, but we can definitely get those from FA/trades. His current best fit would be Amir, who has the athleticism and defense. Either Davis (lack of quickness) and Bargnani (lack of shot blocking) fit with him at this moment. So I prefer BB if we can obtain some good assets in trades.

As for Kemba, you could be right.

I keep seeing you posting that Davis isn't quick and I have no idea where it comes from. I think he's plenty quick, but he also plays smart enough positionally that he doesn't need to rely purely on his quickness. He still has the ability to react fast, though.

Either way, if that's the only reason you think Davis and Kanter don't fit together, I think it's a pretty weak argument.