Official RJ Barrett Thread Part 2

[ash_k]

I actually think it may come down to Agbaji vs. Barrett in the future, and not DIck vs. Barrett. I think DIck's ceiling projects him to be quite a bit better than RJ will ever be. The conversation between Ochai and RJ will settle around multiple factors like two-way impact, contract salary, and overall fit based on the other offensive options we have. We have to see what Ochai's next contract with us will look like, how much he'll want vs. what he gives etc.

But yeah, it's also very possible that IQ gets shipped out as the odd-one out at some point. Hell, it's possible 2-3 years down the road, we may find it logical to deal both IQ and RJ if Barnes really settles into full-time PG duties. DIck & Agbaji on the wings really help with their overall shooting. Depends on who else we draft/trade for in the coming years.

Last season, i was bullish on Gradey's thread and his future success even when he was at his very worst..I just could not see how someone with his pedigree be a bust..averaging 18 in his 2nd year? Certainly not but had him as future Gordon Hayward(more athletic one)
This month RJ is doing 25.1ppg|7.9rpg|5.7apg|49.3FG%|85.7FT% at just 24; and at home 28/7/6/50/40/80 for the year...are you then saying that Gradey will be a future hall of famer?

"Here's a 10-game statline from RJ, this means that you think Gradey is a hall of famer in the future."
You have to try to be this dishonest. No wonder you're on my foe list. Twat.

foe list?cute..save me the pre-school stuff. you can pretend that there has not been a consistency around those numbers for over a year with RJ while you are using 23 games of Gradey to predict higher ceiling than RJ..then I read "dishonest" yeah yeah keep me on that "foe list"

[Scase]

Reading this thread is like we are arguing if we should continue with Demar or move on and trade him when his value is high.

No one wanted DeMar gone after his first all-star season (when he was also 24) where he put up 23/4/4.

With hindsight they would have, and that's the point. The point is that this is the exact same thing that happened with Demar, except now people have the knowledge of what happened last time.

[deck]

Reading this thread is like we are arguing if we should continue with Demar or move on and trade him when his value is high.

No one wanted DeMar gone after his first all-star season (when he was also 24) where he put up 23/4/4.

With hindsight they would have, and that's the point. The point is that this is the exact same thing that happened with Demar, except now people have the knowledge of what happened last time.

Demar led the franchise to it's most successful 5 years, even without the 2019 championship. Trading Demar in 2013 would have been really dumb, even with hindsight.

[Scase]

No one wanted DeMar gone after his first all-star season (when he was also 24) where he put up 23/4/4.

With hindsight they would have, and that's the point. The point is that this is the exact same thing that happened with Demar, except now people have the knowledge of what happened last time.

Demar led the franchise to it's most successful 5 years, even without the 2019 championship. Trading Demar in 2013 would have been really dumb, even with hindsight.

Well since you are a clairvoyant and know exactly what the outcome of trading him back then would have been, care to give me the lotto max numbers while you're at it?

[deck]

With hindsight they would have, and that's the point. The point is that this is the exact same thing that happened with Demar, except now people have the knowledge of what happened last time.

Demar led the franchise to it's most successful 5 years, even without the 2019 championship. Trading Demar in 2013 would have been really dumb, even with hindsight.

Well since you are a clairvoyant and know exactly what the outcome of trading him back then would have been, care to give me the lotto max numbers while you're at it?

You said with the benefit of hindsight people would trade Demar in 2013. Not trading Demar led to the most successful 5 year period of the franchise, and led to the championship in 2019.

Surely it isn't me that needs be prophetic about what would have happened otherwise.

[canada_dry]

Reading this thread is like we are arguing if we should continue with Demar or move on and trade him when his value is high.

No one wanted DeMar gone after his first all-star season (when he was also 24) where he put up 23/4/4.

With hindsight they would have, and that's the point. The point is that this is the exact same thing that happened with Demar, except now people have the knowledge of what happened last time.

No...with hindsight they would have done exactly what they did and not listened to the tank freaks.

Listening to the tank freaks and trading demar before they actually did would have us here in 2024 with 0 rings.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[Indeed]

No one wanted DeMar gone after his first all-star season (when he was also 24) where he put up 23/4/4.

With hindsight they would have, and that's the point. The point is that this is the exact same thing that happened with Demar, except now people have the knowledge of what happened last time.

No...with hindsight they would have done exactly what they did and not listened to the tank freaks.

Listening to the tank freaks and trading demar before they actually did would have us here in 2024 with 0 rings.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

It is a pretty unfair/lazy comparison between Barrett and DeRozan. One relies on rim pressure with ball penetration and quickness (you can control), while one relies on getting call with pump fake (not your control).

[RoteSchroder]

No one wanted DeMar gone after his first all-star season (when he was also 24) where he put up 23/4/4.

With hindsight they would have, and that's the point. The point is that this is the exact same thing that happened with Demar, except now people have the knowledge of what happened last time.

Demar led the franchise to it's most successful 5 years, even without the 2019 championship. Trading Demar in 2013 would have been really dumb, even with hindsight.

You mean Lowry led the franchise. Nothing against. Demar, but his game was never conducive to winning. I would have traded him at any point in his career based on the rumours: Harden, Jimmy Butler, Kawhi

[ash_k]

With hindsight they would have, and that's the point. The point is that this is the exact same thing that happened with Demar, except now people have the knowledge of what happened last time.

Demar led the franchise to it's most successful 5 years, even without the 2019 championship. Trading Demar in 2013 would have been really dumb, even with hindsight.

You mean Lowry led the franchise. Nothing against. Demar, but his game was never conducive to winning. I would have traded him at any point in his career based on the rumours: Harden, Jimmy Butler, Kawhi

His game was absolutely conducive to winning
The big problem with DeMar, he could not replicate his game in the playoffs as he could not handle the pressure of the playoffs as the number 1 option(same with Spurs&Bulls)..just like Kyle could not handle it as the number 1 or 2 option, much better as the 3rd option like the year of the title.
Weren't you guys watching the playoffs games?! This should be common knowledge by now.
If I were DeMar, for this season, I would have picked the Lakers with all the pressure on LeBron&AD..but I understand $$$$

[RoteSchroder]

Demar led the franchise to it's most successful 5 years, even without the 2019 championship. Trading Demar in 2013 would have been really dumb, even with hindsight.

You mean Lowry led the franchise. Nothing against. Demar, but his game was never conducive to winning. I would have traded him at any point in his career based on the rumours: Harden, Jimmy Butler, Kawhi

His game was absolutely conducive to winning
The big problem with DeMar, he could not replicate his game in the playoffs as he could not handle the pressure of the playoffs as the number 1 option(same with Spurs&Bulls)..just like Kyle could not handle it as the number 1 or 2 option, much better as the 3rd option like the year of the title.
Weren't you guys watching the playoffs games?! This should be common knowledge by now.
If I were DeMar, for this season, I would have picked the Lakers with all the pressure on LeBron&AD..but I understand $$$$

If LBJ is a +10, he’s like a +2, which you can call conducive to winning, but he was treated like a franchise player than his rightful role as a 6th man. Lowry would be a +6

[ash_k]

You mean Lowry led the franchise. Nothing against. Demar, but his game was never conducive to winning. I would have traded him at any point in his career based on the rumours: Harden, Jimmy Butler, Kawhi

His game was absolutely conducive to winning
The big problem with DeMar, he could not replicate his game in the playoffs as he could not handle the pressure of the playoffs as the number 1 option(same with Spurs&Bulls)..just like Kyle could not handle it as the number 1 or 2 option, much better as the 3rd option like the year of the title.
Weren't you guys watching the playoffs games?! This should be common knowledge by now.
If I were DeMar, for this season, I would have picked the Lakers with all the pressure on LeBron&AD..but I understand $$$$

If LBJ is a +10, he’s like a +2, which you can call conducive to winning, but he was treated like a franchise player than his rightful role as a 6th man. Lowry would be a +6

That's the problem with many Raps fan, which is the same reason they will never understand why Masai kept FVVs and Siakams for so long; based on their understanding of basketball(mostly based on analytics)
The following clearly shows the traits of a Franchise player (that 6th man thing is laughable):
6× NBA All-Star (2014, 2016–2018, 2022, 2023)
2× All-NBA Second Team (2018, 2022)
All-NBA Third Team (2017)
Team USA/2 Gold Medals
Span of 3 years with us, we were TOP3 in the East
Now you can go back to my original post why ultimately he could not be

[lebron stopper]

fun fact: derozan hasn't won a single playoff series since he got traded from the raptors, and has only appeared in the playoffs 2 of 6 times since that trade (could soon be 2 of 7).

"Demar led the franchise to it's [sic] most successful 5 years" is a remarkable spin that erases the role lowry had in completely turning this team around. somehow derozan led this team to success but couldn't replicate that on other teams? that doesn't add up at all.

[LoveMyRaps]

Reading this thread is like we are arguing if we should continue with Demar or move on and trade him when his value is high.

No one wanted DeMar gone after his first all-star season (when he was also 24) where he put up 23/4/4.

With hindsight they would have, and that's the point. The point is that this is the exact same thing that happened with Demar, except now people have the knowledge of what happened last time.

A lot of fallacy in this logic.

Others have already pointed out why, but I'll also add that people only started to jump on the 'trade DeMar' ship after his consecutive playoff collapses, and his failure to develop a 3pt shot.

That's something that remains a TBD w/ RJ - we don't know how he'll perform under the bright lights. He's had some big moments on the big stage in his young career (both in the NBA and international play), so he if he turns out to be a guy that steps it up come playoff time, you have no choice but to keep him.

[MEDIC]

Would you rather (if you only had 2 choices):

1. Have a prime Lowry paired with a 24 year old Derozan.

or

2. Have a prime Lowry paired with a 24 year old Barrett.

[Indeed]

Would you rather (if you only had 2 choices):

1. Have a prime Lowry paired with a 24 year old Derozan.

or

2. Have a prime Lowry paired with a 24 year old Barrett.

Barrett is a better player, and not even close. DeRozan can shoot 3s to compliment other players? Nope.

[Ell Curry]

You mean Lowry led the franchise. Nothing against. Demar, but his game was never conducive to winning. I would have traded him at any point in his career based on the rumours: Harden, Jimmy Butler, Kawhi

His game was absolutely conducive to winning
The big problem with DeMar, he could not replicate his game in the playoffs as he could not handle the pressure of the playoffs as the number 1 option(same with Spurs&Bulls)..just like Kyle could not handle it as the number 1 or 2 option, much better as the 3rd option like the year of the title.
Weren't you guys watching the playoffs games?! This should be common knowledge by now.
If I were DeMar, for this season, I would have picked the Lakers with all the pressure on LeBron&AD..but I understand $$$$

If LBJ is a +10, he’s like a +2, which you can call conducive to winning, but he was treated like a franchise player than his rightful role as a 6th man. Lowry would be a +6

I think Demar coulda been a 2nd scorer on a team with a true #1 and very, very good to elite 3+D teammates. So if the Spurs had say asked for Norm Powell and Ibaka instead of Demar and Poeltl it would have worked cap-wise and let's say Kawhi and Green stay for 3 seasons:

Marc Gasol - Poeltl
Siakam - Anunoby
Kawhi - Anunoby
Green - MLE/Room
Lowry - Van Vleet

and plug in say Reggie Bullock as the 9th man for that MLE/Room deal. Maybe Gasol is dealt in 2020 or 2021 with a future 1st or 2 for another big man who can hit a 3 like Brook Lopez or Porzingis.

The keys to our title win were having a star in Kawhi and somehow all 8 of our playoff rotations guys were 3+D players (Kawhi, Lowry, Van Vleet, Powell, Green, Siakam, Gasol, Ibaka) and we even had an extra in OG.

Demar would have hurt both our absurdly good defence and our great spacing, but you can maybe have 1 guy who contributes without those qualities and still win a title if the other 7 rotation guys all can, IF you have 4 or 5 cracks at it like most teams get instead of the 1 crack we got.

Honestly it was insane we had so much 3+D talent. Kawhi might actually be the single greatest 3+D player of all time, we somehow had 2 bigs who qualified and the worst defender in the rotation was probably Norm, who had good size for a 2 guard and played hard and was fine? Only the current Thunder and Celtics come close, depending on Pritchard's defence (I genuinely don't know if he's good, and Hartenstein is the lone non-shooter on the Thunder but he's good and useful. Nobody else has close to the 3+D qualities or depth we had, and those 2 are the heavy finals favorites for that reason as much as their overall talent.

With regards to the current team, if you exclude guys who probably won't ever shoot or play D and you're optimistic on Mogbo's shooting (who the hell knows) and Quickley (did it in NY) Walter's defence (flashes so far, okay size and mobility and compete level, not bad as a perimeter rookie) which seems reasonable enough, it looks like this:

CENTER-CENTER
Barnes-Mogbo
WING-Agbaji
Walter-Agbaji
Quickley-PG

and we need to add 2 stretch bigs and 2 perimeter guys for a 9 man rotation where everyone can hit a 3 and play some defence. It's gonna be damn near impossible to find 2 stretchy bigs again, but you can cut corners and add a really good defensive center who hurts your shooting a little and Grady Dick (who hurts your D but hopefully will juice your shooting) might fit just enough to keep us with at least 4 shooters/defenders on the court at all times.

UNICORN-Poeltl
Barnes-Mogbo
WING-Agbaji
Dick-Walter
Quickley-POINTGUARD

is how I would look at the roster right now. Doesn't look like there's a unicorn in the draft, though it's hard to predict big man shooting since that often comes a bit later. Drafting Flagg (and having him turn out to be a solid 3pt shooter), trading RJ (and Olynyk) and say 4 1sts for someone like Bam Adebayo and him finally turning his solid FT% into solid 3pt shooting and finding a good backup PG with another 1st, or a 2nd, or for the MLE or via another trade is the sort of route we need to get back to contention.

It's why I'm ultimately so low relative to many here on RJ. Yes, there's a scenario where RJ is your #2 or #3 scorer and your team is a contender, but my guess is means you have a top 5 player in the league AND at least 5-6 3+D guys in the rotation, and those are damn near impossible to find, especially with 30M a year going to someone who isn't either of those things.

[RoteSchroder]

His game was absolutely conducive to winning
The big problem with DeMar, he could not replicate his game in the playoffs as he could not handle the pressure of the playoffs as the number 1 option(same with Spurs&Bulls)..just like Kyle could not handle it as the number 1 or 2 option, much better as the 3rd option like the year of the title.
Weren't you guys watching the playoffs games?! This should be common knowledge by now.
If I were DeMar, for this season, I would have picked the Lakers with all the pressure on LeBron&AD..but I understand $$$$

If LBJ is a +10, he’s like a +2, which you can call conducive to winning, but he was treated like a franchise player than his rightful role as a 6th man. Lowry would be a +6

That's the problem with many Raps fan, which is the same reason they will never understand why Masai kept FVVs and Siakams for so long; based on their understanding of basketball(mostly based on analytics)
The following clearly shows the traits of a Franchise player (that 6th man thing is laughable):
6× NBA All-Star (2014, 2016–2018, 2022, 2023)
2× All-NBA Second Team (2018, 2022)
All-NBA Third Team (2017)
Team USA/2 Gold Medals
Span of 3 years with us, we were TOP3 in the East
Now you can go back to my original post why ultimately he could not be

Yet the wins or there lack of speaks for itself. Every situation he's been in has been mediocre. For every team he's left, nothing really changed. He's had about 3-4 solid seasons in his career, the rest has been 6th man material.

He's an SG who can't play defense, can't spread the floor and doesn't draw much gravity due to being a mid-range player. You may like individual accolades, I like players conducive to winning. Different values.

On the Raptors, it couldn't be more obvious that Lowry was the reason we were good and Derozan was the help. If DD was on Lowry's level, Masai wouldn't have traded him for Kawhi. Not only that, Nurse wouldn't have benched him twice in the playoffs, in which one of the games we overcame a 20 point deficit created by Derozan.

Also, if you're butthurt about FVV and Siakam, take that up with Masai for giving up on them. I didn't bring them into the argument.

[ash_k]

If LBJ is a +10, he’s like a +2, which you can call conducive to winning, but he was treated like a franchise player than his rightful role as a 6th man. Lowry would be a +6

That's the problem with many Raps fan, which is the same reason they will never understand why Masai kept FVVs and Siakams for so long; based on their understanding of basketball(mostly based on analytics)
The following clearly shows the traits of a Franchise player (that 6th man thing is laughable):
6× NBA All-Star (2014, 2016–2018, 2022, 2023)
2× All-NBA Second Team (2018, 2022)
All-NBA Third Team (2017)
Team USA/2 Gold Medals
Span of 3 years with us, we were TOP3 in the East
Now you can go back to my original post why ultimately he could not be

Yet the wins or there lack of speaks for itself. Every situation he's been in has been mediocre. For every team he's left, nothing really changed. He's had about 3-4 solid seasons in his career, the rest has been 6th man material.

He's an SG who can't play defense, can't spread the floor and doesn't draw much gravity due to being a mid-range player. You may like individual accolades, I like players conducive to winning. Different values.

On the Raptors, it couldn't be more obvious that Lowry was the reason we were good and Derozan was the help. If DD was on Lowry's level, Masai wouldn't have traded him for Kawhi. Not only that, Nurse wouldn't have benched him twice in the playoffs, in which one of the games we overcame a 20 point deficit created by Derozan.

Also, if you're butthurt about FVV and Siakam, take that up with Masai for giving up on them. I didn't bring them into the argument.

it is clear the points about playoffs pressure(mental aspect of the game) are not going through which explains your last point about FVV&Siakam; which explains your points above about DeMar.

It is like you were not watching the playoffs when Kyle had the worst shooting percentage in playoffs history at some point.
Both DeMar&Kyle had playoffs meltdowns as the first 2 options, Demars were just worse.
There was no such thing as "If DD was on Lowry's level, Masai wouldn't have traded him for Kawhi". None whatsoever. Kyle was 3rd option on our LOB as his rightful place(less pressure).

As a unique opportunity for us, Masai traded DeMar and his playoffs meltdowns only because Kawhi was a certified playoffs performer/already NBA Finals MVP...that's it, that's all.

During the season, with Kyle's constantly constantly complaining about DD's departure, there were rumors of Kyle-for-Conley which any fan paying attention to playoffs should have accepted as Mike was a proven playoffs performer via some epic battles against the Spurs and others with Gasol.

Lastly, you say "6th man material" for a man that has averaged 20 points per game for 10+ straight years, All-Stars with 2 different teams, built the reputation of a clutch player (in regular season only though)..one of the greatest coaches of all-time started him in all of his games...and you are here talking "6th man material", drop that ridiculous nonsense.

[RoteSchroder]

That's the problem with many Raps fan, which is the same reason they will never understand why Masai kept FVVs and Siakams for so long; based on their understanding of basketball(mostly based on analytics)
The following clearly shows the traits of a Franchise player (that 6th man thing is laughable):
6× NBA All-Star (2014, 2016–2018, 2022, 2023)
2× All-NBA Second Team (2018, 2022)
All-NBA Third Team (2017)
Team USA/2 Gold Medals
Span of 3 years with us, we were TOP3 in the East
Now you can go back to my original post why ultimately he could not be

Yet the wins or there lack of speaks for itself. Every situation he's been in has been mediocre. For every team he's left, nothing really changed. He's had about 3-4 solid seasons in his career, the rest has been 6th man material.

He's an SG who can't play defense, can't spread the floor and doesn't draw much gravity due to being a mid-range player. You may like individual accolades, I like players conducive to winning. Different values.

On the Raptors, it couldn't be more obvious that Lowry was the reason we were good and Derozan was the help. If DD was on Lowry's level, Masai wouldn't have traded him for Kawhi. Not only that, Nurse wouldn't have benched him twice in the playoffs, in which one of the games we overcame a 20 point deficit created by Derozan.

Also, if you're butthurt about FVV and Siakam, take that up with Masai for giving up on them. I didn't bring them into the argument.

it is clear the points about playoffs pressure(mental aspect of the game) are not going through which explains your last point about FVV&Siakam; which explains your points above about DeMar.

It is like you were not watching the playoffs when Kyle had the worst shooting percentage in playoffs history at some point.
Both DeMar&Kyle had playoffs meltdowns as the first 2 options, Demars were just worse.
There was no such thing as "If DD was on Lowry's level, Masai wouldn't have traded him for Kawhi". None whatsoever. Kyle was 3rd option on our LOB as his rightful place(less pressure).

As a unique opportunity for us, Masai traded DeMar and his playoffs meltdowns only because Kawhi was a certified playoffs performer/already NBA Finals MVP...that's it, that's all.

During the season, with Kyle's constantly constantly complaining about DD's departure, there were rumors of Kyle-for-Conley which any fan paying attention to playoffs should have accepted as Mike was a proven playoffs performer via some epic battles against the Spurs and others with Gasol.

Lastly, you say "6th man material" for a man that has averaged 20 points per game for 10+ straight years, All-Stars with 2 different teams, built the reputation of a clutch player (in regular season only though)..one of the greatest coaches of all-time started him in all of his games...and you are here talking "6th man material", drop that ridiculous nonsense.

yeah and they won nothing. If you want to win, you put him as a 6th man. Like I said, I don't care about individual accomplishments. What is Derozan gonna do as a support player? Spread the floor for Lebron? Play defense? lmao

Pops also put Ginobili on the bench and Danny Green/Bruce Bowen/etc. as a starter. Who Pops benches and starts doesn't mean much. Derozan starting is also fine, I'm just saying ideally you want him as a 6th man on a championship team. If you want to wallow in mediocrity like Derozan all his career, that's your choice, don't force it onto others.

In terms of Lowry, he was more impactful in both regular season and playoffs. But he was also more injury prone. They may have both chucked up bricks in certain series, but Lowry was also running the offense, playing defense and spreading the floor. Meanwhile, the team got better when Derozan got replaced by Norman Powell. No one was replacing Lowry.

An SG version of Lowry would be like Jimmy Butler. Both not the best scorers, but impact the game at a high level. Masai would have kept Butler.

[deck]

fun fact: derozan hasn't won a single playoff series since he got traded from the raptors, and has only appeared in the playoffs 2 of 6 times since that trade (could soon be 2 of 7).

"Demar led the franchise to it's [sic] most successful 5 years" is a remarkable spin that erases the role lowry had in completely turning this team around. somehow derozan led this team to success but couldn't replicate that on other teams? that doesn't add up at all.

What part doesn't add up? During our most successful 5 year period, Derozan was our leading scorer, our highest usage player, and a key part of that success. That Lowry was also here and also a key contributor doesn't change that. They were both critical to that success.

The post that I responded to stated that with the benefit of hindsight, we should have traded Demar in 2013. I simply stated that with the benefit of hindsight, that is an silly statement to make. It assumes that by trading Derozan we would have achieved something better than the best 5 year period of the franchise and a 6th year that included us winning the championship.

Demar as a player has lots of flaws to be sure. But the part I take exception to is the assumption that someone better is easily attainable, and that 2013 - 2018 can be easily replicated and improved upon, if only we had traded Demar. This is an ahistorical position to hold, and diminishes how this franchise actually went on to win it's first championship.