Official Brandon Ingram Thread

[MEDIC]

I do notice he takes some otf balance shots. I wonder if this is a contributing factor..

L ankle seems a bit chronic, but the rest seems like random injuries. Toe injuries and hyperextended knees.

Reminds me of OG

[Scase]

i love what ingram brings us, but AD is still dominating but is just so injury prone, and ingrams injury issues are similar to AD.....he could be out at any moment, i hope we dont sign him for too much money

Pointed this out yesterday but Ingram's injuries are very different from AD.
AD gets a lot of non-contact injuries and easily hurt by minimal contact.

Ingram's injuries are just pure bad luck. Like he's been sidelined for months because Lu Dort flopped and decided to slip under Ingram causing him to land and turn his ankle.

Injuries are still injuries though. OG has a bunch of odd injuries but it still makes him injury prone. I think it’s fair to be pretty concerned with Ingram’s availability. NOLA is a second rate organization though, Raps are banking on their medical staff to change the narrative on Ingram.

I think our medical staffs prowess is largely overblown as well. Players get hurt, they can be injury prone etc. It's not like we've rehabbed any chronically injured players before, nor have we prevented players from being chronically injured while being here.

FVV/OG/Siakam are all just as healthy as they were here since leaving. Kyles games per season are down, but he’s also pretty old relatively speaking. BI is probably going to be just as injury prone as he has the last 8 years, our staff isn't magic, and if we just rest him on B2Bs/lower his minutes, that's not really the medical staff doing anything really. If BI plays more than 65 games next year, I'll be impressed.

[aminiaturebuddha]

It's perfectly fair to be concerned about Ingram's injury history. It's definitely something I'm slightly worried about and will be a big factor in determining the success or failure of this trade. But I'm not sure it's accurate to say that he was "consequentially injured" every season but one. I assume your exception is his rookie season.

When I say "consequentially," I"m specifically speaking of games-missed. And yes, his rookie season is the exception.

Keep in mind that 2019-20 and 2020-21 were both only 72 game seasons. So Ingram's 62 and 61 games played those seasons is more like 70 in a regular season. That's actually pretty standard these days (and especially in those years when you count in Covid illnesses and precautionary protocols). Take a look, for example, at the All-NBA teams from those years. Most of the players played a number of games in the low 60s. I doubt anyone would say they were all consequentially injured those years.

Nah, I've addressed this already. He has missed an actual average of 19.875 games. That's noting the shortened seasons. He's played an average of 75% of games, which is 61.5 games over an 82-game season.

He misses a lot of games, and the Covid seasons don't actually change that.

He's likely to miss a lot of games for us, and given the nature of our roster, that's going to be a huge problem.

The HOPE is, that while he's here, he'll do enough to bolster our offense that we'll win enough that we can survive the 20 games or so he's apt to miss.

Ah but now you're conflating a career average number of games when your original comment was about him being consequentially injured in every season. Those are two different things.

[tsherkin]

Ah but now you're conflating a career average number of games when your original comment was about him being consequentially injured in every season. Those are two different things.

Really?

He hasn't missed less than 10 games since his rookie year. He's missed 18 or more in each of the past 3 seasons, not including the active season. Don't be a pest, we both know he misses reams and reams of games no matter how you slice it. He's missed 18+ games 5 times and has missed 30+ twice.

He misses a lot of games. Dicking around looking for justification isn't going to work because he literally just misses tons and tons of games by any measure.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Ah but now you're conflating a career average number of games when your original comment was about him being consequentially injured in every season. Those are two different things.

Really?

He hasn't missed less than 10 games since his rookie year. He's missed 18 or more in each of the past 3 seasons, not including the active season. Don't be a pest, we both know he misses reams and reams of games no matter how you slice it. He's missed 18+ games 5 times and has missed 30+ twice.

He misses a lot of games. Dicking around looking for justification isn't going to work because he literally just misses tons and tons of games by any measure.

The exact same thing can be said for Luka, I didn't hear anyone talking about his injury history after the trade.

[AbC?]

Ah but now you're conflating a career average number of games when your original comment was about him being consequentially injured in every season. Those are two different things.

Really?

He hasn't missed less than 10 games since his rookie year. He's missed 18 or more in each of the past 3 seasons, not including the active season. Don't be a pest, we both know he misses reams and reams of games no matter how you slice it. He's missed 18+ games 5 times and has missed 30+ twice.

He misses a lot of games. Dicking around looking for justification isn't going to work because he literally just misses tons and tons of games by any measure.

The exact same thing can be said for Luka, I didn't hear anyone talking about his injury history after the trade.

Lmao

Doncic is a 5x all NBA 1st team guy at age 25 and took his team to the finals last season. He misses less games than Ingram, and even if he didn’t, you make exceptions for players of his caliber. Half the league have never had a player as good as Doncic in their entire existence as a franchise.

Not only that, they traded Anthony Davis to get him. A guy with multiple injury related nicknames and who got injured in his very first game as a Maverick. It’s not like they traded an iron man for him, not that it matters whatsoever when you’re talking about getting freaking Luka.

[tsherkin]

The exact same thing can be said for Luka, I didn't hear anyone talking about his injury history after the trade.

Well...

1) Luka is so much better than Ingram that it's far less of a concern
2) Luka's played less than 61 games once in his career so far, so the scope of the likely loss isn't quite the same.

[aminiaturebuddha]

Ah but now you're conflating a career average number of games when your original comment was about him being consequentially injured in every season. Those are two different things.

Really?

He hasn't missed less than 10 games since his rookie year. He's missed 18 or more in each of the past 3 seasons, not including the active season. Don't be a pest, we both know he misses reams and reams of games no matter how you slice it. He's missed 18+ games 5 times and has missed 30+ twice.

He misses a lot of games. Dicking around looking for justification isn't going to work because he literally just misses tons and tons of games by any measure.

I think you're now far away from my original point, which was simply to say that's it's not accurate to say that he's been seriously injured every season except his rookie season. I said at the very outset that it's fair to be concerned about his injury history and is one that I share. But that's not the same as saying that he's been consequently injured in every season.

Think about it this way: if someone said that it snowed heavily every single day this week except Sunday, when it actually snowed a little bit on Monday, and a lot on Wednesday or Thursday, would it have been accurate to say that it snowed a lot every day just because the total amount of snowfall for the week was above average?

As for me being a "pest", perhaps if you can't handle a simple discussion without resorting to name calling, participating on a message board isn't right for you.

[tsherkin]

I think you're now far away from my original point, which was simply to say that's it's not accurate to say that he's been seriously injured every season except his rookie season.

I didn't. I very explicitly told you that was not what I said.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

The exact same thing can be said for Luka, I didn't hear anyone talking about his injury history after the trade.

Well...

1) Luka is so much better than Ingram that it's far less of a concern
2) Luka's played less than 61 games once in his career so far, so the scope of the likely loss isn't quite the same.

Okay, I think the point is many star level player miss time during the regular season in the current context, as evident by the rule changes to regular season awards.

Not sure BI deserves to put under the microscope like this

[tsherkin]

Okay, I think the point is many star level player miss time during the regular season in the current context, as evident by the rule changes to regular season awards.

Not sure BI deserves to put under the microscope like this

Disagree. There's a degree to which it is true of any player. If you know they're gonna miss 10-20 games on average, then you have to plan accordingly. And the worse they are, the lower your winning percentage in the games they are present, the lower your ceiling as a team overall and the less likely they'll be healthy come the playoffs and have synergy with your guys.

It matters.

Not factoring it in is just foolish at some point. Meantime, Luka made the Finals literally last year. BI doesn't have that sort of ability, so it's less worth giving him extra slack because he flatly isn't good enough for that to be appropriate.

[aminiaturebuddha]

I think you're now far away from my original point, which was simply to say that's it's not accurate to say that he's been seriously injured every season except his rookie season.

I didn't. I very explicitly told you that was not what I said.

You're right. You said he had been "consequentially injured" not "seriously injured". My bad.

[tsherkin]

I think you're now far away from my original point, which was simply to say that's it's not accurate to say that he's been seriously injured every season except his rookie season.

I didn't. I very explicitly told you that was not what I said.

You're right. You said he had been "consequentially injured" not "seriously injured". My bad.

I also very specifically explained what I meant by that phrase after.

[aminiaturebuddha]

I didn't. I very explicitly told you that was not what I said.

You're right. You said he had been "consequentially injured" not "seriously injured". My bad.

I also very specifically explained what I meant by that phrase after.

Ok sure.

[tsherkin]

You're right. You said he had been "consequentially injured" not "seriously injured". My bad.

I also very specifically explained what I meant by that phrase after.

Ok sure.

Anyway, we on the same page now?

[aminiaturebuddha]

I also very specifically explained what I meant by that phrase after.

Ok sure.

Anyway, we on the same page now?

We were never really on substantially different pages. I've agreed that he's had injuries in his career and it's fair to be concerned about it. I was contesting your initial formulation of that fact by suggesting that this has been a serious problem every season. If that's not what you meant, then yes, we're in agreement.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Okay, I think the point is many star level player miss time during the regular season in the current context, as evident by the rule changes to regular season awards.

Not sure BI deserves to put under the microscope like this

Disagree. There's a degree to which it is true of any player. If you know they're gonna miss 10-20 games on average, then you have to plan accordingly. And the worse they are, the lower your winning percentage in the games they are present, the lower your ceiling as a team overall and the less likely they'll be healthy come the playoffs and have synergy with your guys.

It matters.

Not factoring it in is just foolish at some point. Meantime, Luka made the Finals literally last year. BI doesn't have that sort of ability, so it's less worth giving him extra slack because he flatly isn't good enough for that to be appropriate.

If he plays enough to get us in the playoffs, all that matters is that he's there for the playoffs. If you've been following, the only reason he hasn't averaged 26+ points per game is because he's been in a facilitator role for three years with NO because they haven't had a point guard.

He projects to have real impact, and is therefore worth it even if he missis 10+ games a year.

[tsherkin]

We were never really on substantially different pages. I've agreed that he's had injuries in his career and it's fair to be concerned about it. I was contesting your initial formulation of that fact by suggesting that this has been a serious problem every season. If that's not what you meant, then yes, we're in agreement.

He hasn't had what one would call 'serious injuries' every season, but he's missed a significant number of games almost every season, and for many consecutive seasons now. That IS problematic, especially because he isn't a superstar-level player.

If he plays enough to get us in the playoffs, all that matters is that he's there for the playoffs. If you've been following, the only reason he hasn't averaged 26+ points per game is because he's been in a facilitator role for three years with NO because they haven't had a point guard.

Can't say I agree that is th only reason he hasn't averaged 26+ ppg, to be honest. His efficiency has managed to get in the way as much as anything else.

He'll have impact when he's healthy, no doubt. The question becomes, how healthy will he be? And when he is, how good will he be?

[Dalek]

It is interesting the points about Ingram playing almost as a PG handling pick and rolls. Toronto doesn't run it a lot. Our motion offense is often with the big making decisions rather than straight pick and roll.

To wit, the Raptors are near the bottom of the league (27th) in how often a pick-and-roll ball-handler finishes a possession with a shot, turnover or free throws, per Synergy. They use their screener — usually Jakob Poeltl — a bit more. Together, fewer than 20 per cent of their offensive possessions end immediately following a pick-and-roll action.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nba/article/evaluating-key-areas-that-will-determine-brandon-ingrams-fit-with-raptors/

I do think pick and roll is physically demanding for the handler - you have handle the ball and dribble into the paint and take contact.

To reduce the load on Ingram I'd rely on the catch and shoot. I mentioned it earlier, but he has great C&S numbers at 39% over the past three years. It may be an adjustment for him which may not work out, but him being a scoring option doesn't have to mean he is the lead initiator.

I'd save his ISO offense for late game and the playoffs. We should be also not playing him too much on b2bs and resting him intentionally and not waiting for him to be injured. If we get him for 60 games but the whole playoffs that is good and likely inline with most ageing star players.

[AussieRules]

i would put ingram on a 30 min restriction with no back to backs for the rest of his career

Nah it was a freak injury, I actually think BI is ready to go but doesn’t wanna ruin the tank. No reason to rush back, probably want to get an extension done before coming back too