Tank World Order

[casual_raps_fan]

It's been discussed at length. As far as I know Creamy was the first to suggest it. Various versions but not including Thomas and Ferguson and alternating between Maxey/thybulle.

I think creamy's first proposal was Kyle for Green/Scott/Maxey/thybulle but the basic idea would be that the two major pieces coming back would 2 of thybulle/Maxey/pick/pick.

Makes sense on several levels. Philly may prefer picks over their prospects because they're trying to compete now. That probably works better for us too.

Ok I understand. I'll read through the thread.

I took Thybulle into consideration as well but liked Maxey's offensive potential more. Also if we do keep Fred around, Maxey has potential to fit well next to him which is a nice bonus.

After sending Kyle to the 76ers, I'm going to assume he will stay there which means their picks will probably remain mid to late 20s for a while. If that is the case, I would prefer taking Maxey over an extra 1st round pick.


Edit: I was skimming through this thread but I am mostly seeing people arguing that the tank is good or evil. Was the trade discussion in this thread?

It's been talked about in several threads including this one. I'll try to link you.

I wonder if floaters may become a thing the next few seasons. It's basically impossible to defend them. Doncic has probably pushed that forward and when I checked out maxey's college hilites it seemed like his greatest weapon.

I appreciate the gesture but if it's too much, you don't have to. Thank you though.

This place has been unbearable the past 2-3 weeks so I was taking a little break.

[C-R-E-A-M-]

Lowry/Thomas for Maxey/Thybulle + FRP + Salary fillers

Siakam for MPJ + Salary fillers

Trade Norm, Davis & Boucher for anything

Get top 5 pick : Cade/Mobley/Kuminga/Suggs/Green

FVV/Flynn
Cade/Maxey
OG/Thybulle
MPJ
Free Agent

[mdenny]

Ok I understand. I'll read through the thread.

I took Thybulle into consideration as well but liked Maxey's offensive potential more. Also if we do keep Fred around, Maxey has potential to fit well next to him which is a nice bonus.

After sending Kyle to the 76ers, I'm going to assume he will stay there which means their picks will probably remain mid to late 20s for a while. If that is the case, I would prefer taking Maxey over an extra 1st round pick.


Edit: I was skimming through this thread but I am mostly seeing people arguing that the tank is good or evil. Was the trade discussion in this thread?

It's been talked about in several threads including this one. I'll try to link you.

I wonder if floaters may become a thing the next few seasons. It's basically impossible to defend them. Doncic has probably pushed that forward and when I checked out maxey's college hilites it seemed like his greatest weapon.

I appreciate the gesture but if it's too much, you don't have to. Thank you though.

This place has been unbearable the past 2-3 weeks so I was taking a little break.

Here's what I posted earlier in this thread. I didn't come up with the Philly trade though. I just thought it was a good idea and is similar to what you suggested:

I've started to think this is a potential roadmap:

Lowry to philly for green/scott/tybulle/first

Siakam to Denver for Harris/MPJ/Zeke

It would essentially fasttrack us to year 3 of a 5 year rebuild.

At the start of the 2022/23 season ( only 20 months away) we would have FVV, OG and the following assets:

MPJ
Thybulle
Flynn
Zeke
Our 2021 first
Our 2022 first
Philly 2021 or 22 first

That's seven spins of the roulette wheel all coming to fruition in 20 months time. Add all of them to Fred, OG and you've only spent approx 60 million in cap space. Leaves enough room for either 1 max contract and a strong supporting cast or 2 max contracts with a weak supporting cast.

A year and a half rebuild.




This thread here discusses a similar version of the Philly trade you suggested too:

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=2035773

[casual_raps_fan]

It's been talked about in several threads including this one. I'll try to link you.

I wonder if floaters may become a thing the next few seasons. It's basically impossible to defend them. Doncic has probably pushed that forward and when I checked out maxey's college hilites it seemed like his greatest weapon.

I appreciate the gesture but if it's too much, you don't have to. Thank you though.

This place has been unbearable the past 2-3 weeks so I was taking a little break.

Here's what I posted earlier in this thread. I didn't come up with the Philly trade though. I just thought it was a good idea and is similar to what you suggested:

I've started to think this is a potential roadmap:

Lowry to philly for green/scott/tybulle/first

Siakam to Denver for Harris/MPJ/Zeke

It would essentially fasttrack us to year 3 of a 5 year rebuild.

At the start of the 2022/23 season ( only 20 months away) we would have FVV, OG and the following assets:

MPJ
Thybulle
Flynn
Zeke
Our 2021 first
Our 2022 first
Philly 2021 or 22 first

That's seven spins of the roulette wheel all coming to fruition in 20 months time. Add all of them to Fred, OG and you've only spent approx 60 million in cap space. Leaves enough room for either 1 max contract and a strong supporting cast or 2 max contracts with a weak supporting cast.

A year and a half rebuild.




This thread here discusses a similar version of the Philly trade you suggested too:

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=2035773

In your Nuggets trade, I think the Nuggets are giving up too much. MPJ is looking too valuable. You'd probably have to remove MPJ and add picks OR remove Nnaji from the trade.

In general I like the premise of both trades.

Also thank you for the link to the 'Lowry Trade Destinations' thread.

[mdenny]

I appreciate the gesture but if it's too much, you don't have to. Thank you though.

This place has been unbearable the past 2-3 weeks so I was taking a little break.

Here's what I posted earlier in this thread. I didn't come up with the Philly trade though. I just thought it was a good idea and is similar to what you suggested:

I've started to think this is a potential roadmap:

Lowry to philly for green/scott/tybulle/first

Siakam to Denver for Harris/MPJ/Zeke

It would essentially fasttrack us to year 3 of a 5 year rebuild.

At the start of the 2022/23 season ( only 20 months away) we would have FVV, OG and the following assets:

MPJ
Thybulle
Flynn
Zeke
Our 2021 first
Our 2022 first
Philly 2021 or 22 first

That's seven spins of the roulette wheel all coming to fruition in 20 months time. Add all of them to Fred, OG and you've only spent approx 60 million in cap space. Leaves enough room for either 1 max contract and a strong supporting cast or 2 max contracts with a weak supporting cast.

A year and a half rebuild.




This thread here discusses a similar version of the Philly trade you suggested too:

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=2035773

In your Nuggets trade, I think the Nuggets are giving up too much. MPJ is looking too valuable. You'd probably have to remove MPJ and add picks OR remove Nnaji from the trade.

In general I like the premise of both trades.

Also thank you for the link to the 'Lowry Trade Destinations' thread.

Yah you aren't the first to suggest that MPJ is too much. I might be too optimistic in suggesting it. A couple points though:

1 GM player assessments don't swing wildly with slumps and streaks. So Siakam's trade value has not fallen AS MUCH as we might think.

2 Denver is in win-mode. The type of position to cash in on futures to bolster lineup. It also helps that they had a really slow start.

3 even if they don't want to give up MPJ....we can still get a package of Harris/zeke/picks because Denver seems like the most logical place for siakam to go. His skillset seems a good fit to add to Jokic/murray.

[omar36]

I appreciate the gesture but if it's too much, you don't have to. Thank you though.

This place has been unbearable the past 2-3 weeks so I was taking a little break.

Here's what I posted earlier in this thread. I didn't come up with the Philly trade though. I just thought it was a good idea and is similar to what you suggested:

I've started to think this is a potential roadmap:

Lowry to philly for green/scott/tybulle/first

Siakam to Denver for Harris/MPJ/Zeke

It would essentially fasttrack us to year 3 of a 5 year rebuild.

At the start of the 2022/23 season ( only 20 months away) we would have FVV, OG and the following assets:

MPJ
Thybulle
Flynn
Zeke
Our 2021 first
Our 2022 first
Philly 2021 or 22 first

That's seven spins of the roulette wheel all coming to fruition in 20 months time. Add all of them to Fred, OG and you've only spent approx 60 million in cap space. Leaves enough room for either 1 max contract and a strong supporting cast or 2 max contracts with a weak supporting cast.

A year and a half rebuild.




This thread here discusses a similar version of the Philly trade you suggested too:

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=2035773

In your Nuggets trade, I think the Nuggets are giving up too much. MPJ is looking too valuable. You'd probably have to remove MPJ and add picks OR remove Nnaji from the trade.

In general I like the premise of both trades.

Also thank you for the link to the 'Lowry Trade Destinations' thread.

i respectfully disagree. I know pascal value is tanked hard but he's a year removed form all nba 2nd team. 2 yearsish removed from MIP/number 2/3 of a championship squad.

picks mean nothing when denver will have jamal/jokic for the forseeable future. siakim gives them a guy who can play defense which they need. MPJ is a horrendous defender that gets targeted. with siakim, i think they win tbh. siakim in that role is so much better then he is when hes being targeted by the defense. His defense will also be huge for a team that lost grant.

imo, put pascal on mavs/denver and provided they stay healthy, they challenge lakers and can beat the lakers

if hes not inlcuded, no point of trading pascal imo,

[EH15]

I have MPJ as a near untouchable. It's pretty laughable if anyone thinks you can get MPJ for Siakam. If you are looped in you'd know MPJ is not even a sure bet for Harden. That's how highly they value him. As they should.

Nuggets won't even give him up for Beal/Harden, you think Siakam can get it done?

[Wo1verine]

with no fans probably a good idea to start the dismantling -

[Kingsway_fan]

Lowry/Thomas for Maxey/Thybulle + FRP + Salary fillers

Siakam for MPJ + Salary fillers

Trade Norm, Davis & Boucher for anything

Get top 5 pick : Cade/Mobley/Kuminga/Suggs/Green

FVV/Flynn
Cade/Maxey
OG/Thybulle
MPJ
Free Agent

Except replace trade pascal with trade og... Pascal will be fine.. og is pathetically useless...

[Hero]

Does it really make sense to trade Pascal when he is underperforming and his value is low?

[Kingsway_fan]

Does it really make sense to trade Pascal when he is underperforming and his value is low?

No, and he won't... he will play much better when he is surrounded with much better forwards....

We build around him and fred and our frp, possible free agent offseason signing....

[2muchTLC]

I have MPJ as a near untouchable. It's pretty laughable if anyone thinks you can get MPJ for Siakam. If you are looped in you'd know MPJ is not even a sure bet for Harden. That's how highly they value him. As they should.

Nuggets won't even give him up for Beal/Harden, you think Siakam can get it done?

100% for guys like Simmons and MPJ it'd be Harden coming back the other way, not pascal

[Pooh_Jeter]

I wonder what kind of compensation the Raptors could get if they traded Nurse. It doesn't seem like he would be too keen on a rebuild even if it was only 2 years.

[KL78192020]

I wonder what kind of compensation the Raptors could get if they traded Nurse. It doesn't seem like he would be too keen on a rebuild even if it was only 2 years.

the only one I can think of is Doc Rivers for a unprotected 1st round pick from the Clippers. Have there been others?

[MavCarter]

From 2005-2018 (Excluded last 2 years because they're still rookies/sophomores) 24% of players taken in the top 10 turned into all stars. 33% of players taken in the top 5 turned into all stars. 2/36 all stars drafted in the top 10 since 2005 won a championship with the team that drafted them. 6/36 won a championship either with their original team or another. Just some perspective before falling into the TWO trap where you're deluded into thinking this pick is going to turn into our next franchise player guaranteed. Front offices miss way more often on these high picks than they hit. I know we have an elite FO/scouting department but we've had an identity of drafting older players where its easier to project their impact as pros. It becomes much more difficult the higher and younger you go. This is likely going to turn into a 5-6 year process where you need multiple trys to get even 1 all star level player

This selective drafting dates is being used again and again.

You used the arbitrary 2005 draft start date ignoring that Kobe, Lebron, Duncan, Shaq, Dirk all won titles who were drafted before 2005.

Then we have to remember that there are only 15 NBA titles of your arbitrary years 6/36 won a title ignoring what role they played.

It’s simple, a top ten pick has won 26/30 NBA titles as the main piece of a team, the other 4 being Kobe and Kawhi picked at 12 and 15 ie lottery and the pick right after the lottery.

With regard to all your percentages - well yeah, the draft often produces busts and the busts are usually associated with the bad franchises in the lottery year in and out, and then the fact they are usually bad at development as well.

We aren’t going to be shocked if we draft a bust, nothing is guaranteed, but there is a guarantee basically always in NBA history that a top 10 pick is what ends up leading you to a title, and more than 65% of the time it’s the first pick.

I don't think anyone would disagree that you need high end talent (thats usually drafted high) to win championships. The problem is every year you finish with a bad record and draft in the top 10 there's around an 80% chance you *dont* draft an all star caliber player. What happens if you *don't* beat those odds for say, 4-5 years in a row?

[Pooh_Jeter]

I wonder what kind of compensation the Raptors could get if they traded Nurse. It doesn't seem like he would be too keen on a rebuild even if it was only 2 years.

the only one I can think of is Doc Rivers for a unprotected 1st round pick from the Clippers. Have there been others?

That was only one I could think of. I looked it up and Stan Van Gundy from Heat to Magic for two 2nd rounders is only other one I can find.

There was even talk last off-season I believe of Masai being dealt to Knicks, but that is out the window with his contract being up I would think.

Nurse is a top 5 coach I think, but his track record with young players and overall attitude lately doesn't seem all that conducive to a rebuild.

[mademan]

I wonder what kind of compensation the Raptors could get if they traded Nurse. It doesn't seem like he would be too keen on a rebuild even if it was only 2 years.

keen on what? Besides the 1 season with Kawhi, Nurse has done nothing to distinguish himself from Casey. Casey, too, was a COTY. Chit can change fast. Should be humble he has a head coaching job. Great coaches become bad coaches in a hot second in this league

[MavCarter]

I wonder what kind of compensation the Raptors could get if they traded Nurse. It doesn't seem like he would be too keen on a rebuild even if it was only 2 years.

keen on what? Besides the 1 season with Kawhi, Nurse has done nothing to distinguish himself from Casey. Casey, too, was a COTY. Chit can change fast. Should be humble he has a head coaching job. Great coaches become bad coaches in a hot second in this league

Yes when you take away something as small as a championship him and casey are exactly even!

[mademan]

I wonder what kind of compensation the Raptors could get if they traded Nurse. It doesn't seem like he would be too keen on a rebuild even if it was only 2 years.

keen on what? Besides the 1 season with Kawhi, Nurse has done nothing to distinguish himself from Casey. Casey, too, was a COTY. Chit can change fast. Should be humble he has a head coaching job. Great coaches become bad coaches in a hot second in this league

Yes when you take away something as small as a championship him and casey are exactly even!

And forget that 1 team had Kawhi and the other didnt too. Like i said, Nurse is awesome and i do think he's a top tier coach. But Casey was a COTY at one point too, and dude might not find another coaching position after Detroit. Chit moves fast like that in the NBA for coaches

[MavCarter]

keen on what? Besides the 1 season with Kawhi, Nurse has done nothing to distinguish himself from Casey. Casey, too, was a COTY. Chit can change fast. Should be humble he has a head coaching job. Great coaches become bad coaches in a hot second in this league

Yes when you take away something as small as a championship him and casey are exactly even!

And forget that 1 team had Kawhi and the other didnt too. Like i said, Nurse is awesome and i do think he's a top tier coach. But Casey was a COTY at one point too, and dude might not find another coaching position after Detroit. Chit moves fast like that in the NBA for coaches

Has there been any coach in league history that won a championship without a superstar? Only miserable raptors fans would find a way to downplay what they have. Its not like the east was a walk in the park and the raptors were SO much more talented than the bucks/sixers/celts etc that year