Possible reasons for the Lowry S&T hold up (Powell, WCS from DAL for Dragic)

[c3luong]

I would guess that Masai values Precious > Markkanen though. Assuming dragic has non-negative value.

[biblast]

I wonder if Toronto needs to stay in this deal at all and that may indeed be the true hold-up.

Precious Achiuwa is not a guy I would move heaven and earth for and neither is $19m Goran Dragic. If Dallas or some other team is not going to absorb Dragic and/or provide assets, then what would be Toronto's incentive to help Miami out?

It is a nice favor to Kyle, but this is a business and I don't think Precious Achuiwa is worth Toronto eating $19m for Dragic (or even a partial amount after a buyout).

Conversely, say we don't do this deal and just let Kyle go here is what I think is available (maybe someone else can confirm these numbers)

$112m Total Salary Cap for 2021

$99.4m including Dekker and Trent Jr.
$8m per year (guess) for Khem Birch

$107-108m Active roster depending on a couple minimum deals

Getting creative - say the Raps waits to sign Birch using the MLE until we over the cap, and waits to sign Trent Jr. using Bird rights then it frees up around $24m - $26m before we hit the cap.

Toronto could sign a player like Lauri Markanen or Dennis Schroeder to a $20-25m deal to get to the cap, then sign Trent Jr and Birch after. We get better talent and roster balance and actually do something in free agency for once.

The deal has already been agreed upon, they are just looking to add onto if they can prior to the first day that it can be officially signed. There is no way in hell that Masai would back out because that would cause a huge mess in future trades and obviously ruin the point of doing right by Lowry.

People need to look pass Dragic's 19m salary and look at the contributions he can actually make for us in the first half of next season. We always have the trade deadline to move him and you need big salaries to bring back big name players.

I agree with the 1st poster however the S&T for Kyle is already agreed up on no matter what.
There’s no way that the Raps can back out at this point! It would be a disaster of epic proportion!

Something went wrong in the other part of the S&T hence the long hold up and I can’t wait to hear the spin masters aka Doug Smith, Grange, etc…to tell us how Dragic is a very good vet player worth spending $19M and Achiuwa is the best thing since slice bread.

It looks more and more likely that Dragic will suit up for us when the season starts and while he’s still producing quite a bit, he’s not worth spending 19M on our team, that much is clear. Moving him at the deadline will be easier but not a slam dunk given his big contract. A lot will depend on his production and his health!


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[c3luong]

I wonder if Toronto needs to stay in this deal at all and that may indeed be the true hold-up.

Precious Achiuwa is not a guy I would move heaven and earth for and neither is $19m Goran Dragic. If Dallas or some other team is not going to absorb Dragic and/or provide assets, then what would be Toronto's incentive to help Miami out?

It is a nice favor to Kyle, but this is a business and I don't think Precious Achuiwa is worth Toronto eating $19m for Dragic (or even a partial amount after a buyout).

Conversely, say we don't do this deal and just let Kyle go here is what I think is available (maybe someone else can confirm these numbers)

$112m Total Salary Cap for 2021

$99.4m including Dekker and Trent Jr.
$8m per year (guess) for Khem Birch

$107-108m Active roster depending on a couple minimum deals

Getting creative - say the Raps waits to sign Birch using the MLE until we over the cap, and waits to sign Trent Jr. using Bird rights then it frees up around $24m - $26m before we hit the cap.

Toronto could sign a player like Lauri Markanen or Dennis Schroeder to a $20-25m deal to get to the cap, then sign Trent Jr and Birch after. We get better talent and roster balance and actually do something in free agency for once.

The deal has already been agreed upon, they are just looking to add onto if they can prior to the first day that it can be officially signed. There is no way in hell that Masai would back out because that would cause a huge mess in future trades and obviously ruin the point of doing right by Lowry.

People need to look pass Dragic's 19m salary and look at the contributions he can actually make for us in the first half of next season. We always have the trade deadline to move him and you need big salaries to bring back big name players.

I agree with the 1st poster however the S&T for Kyle is already agreed up on no matter what.
There’s no way that the Raps can back out at this point! It would be a disaster of epic proportion!

Something went wrong in the other part of the S&T hence the long hold up and I can’t wait to hear the spin masters aka Doug Smith, Grange, etc…to tell us how Dragic is a very good vet player worth spending $19M and Achiuwa is the best thing since slice bread.

It looks more and more likely that Dragic will suit up for us when the season starts and while he’s still producing quite a bit, he’s not worth spending 19M on our team, that much is clear. Moving him at the deadline will be easier but not a slam dunk given his big contract. A lot will depend on his production and his health!


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I mean technically we don't know if the Raptors ever agreed to a deal. I guess it's unlikely at this point, but it's possible that we never gave a firm yes to the Heat.

[navyblue]

The deal has already been agreed upon, they are just looking to add onto if they can prior to the first day that it can be officially signed. There is no way in hell that Masai would back out because that would cause a huge mess in future trades and obviously ruin the point of doing right by Lowry.

People need to look pass Dragic's 19m salary and look at the contributions he can actually make for us in the first half of next season. We always have the trade deadline to move him and you need big salaries to bring back big name players.

I agree with the 1st poster however the S&T for Kyle is already agreed up on no matter what.
There’s no way that the Raps can back out at this point! It would be a disaster of epic proportion!

Something went wrong in the other part of the S&T hence the long hold up and I can’t wait to hear the spin masters aka Doug Smith, Grange, etc…to tell us how Dragic is a very good vet player worth spending $19M and Achiuwa is the best thing since slice bread.

It looks more and more likely that Dragic will suit up for us when the season starts and while he’s still producing quite a bit, he’s not worth spending 19M on our team, that much is clear. Moving him at the deadline will be easier but not a slam dunk given his big contract. A lot will depend on his production and his health!


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I mean technically we don't know if the Raptors ever agreed to a deal. I guess it's unlikely at this point, but it's possible that we never gave a firm yes to the Heat.

Yes of course the raptors agreed to it, it's the raptors looking to flip Dragic, the heat acting like over the cap team, Dragic saying he wants to be Dallas, Lowry saying good byes.

[mihaic]

Dragic in playoffs gave us fits. He was great a few years ago. Maybe if we make the playoffs we have a twisted sequel Lowry vs. Dragic. If we cannot get value for him keep him at least till trade deadline he could be flipped then, or useful 6th man in the playoffs. He may be a good mentor for Flynn too.

We do not know what the raptors agreed to, maybe they conditionally agreed based on flipping Dragic. If there is no market for him then maybe they want additional considerations from Heat (okpala?). Otherwise the trade structure would have been reported from Heat side.

[ATLTimekeeper]

• As long as you are admitting that what you were peddling as being "true" was actually "speculation"... We cool
• Again, if you think 19.5m REAL dollars versus still getting Achuiwa and having 17m in cap to weaponize at our disposal is close to same value as the deadline, I will simply disagree

Do you have me down as saying these trade rumours were "truth"? The speculation is based on a number of reports, all of which point to a less than desirable return for Kyle Lowry at the deadline. And this is indeed a bad return for Kyle Lowry. The connective tissue here is that the Raptors were content to take less in order to do right by the guy. I'm content with that as well, and don't see the prospect of "weaponizing" cap as important to building a consistent winner.

• I don't say Masai's "ruthlessness" as a negative connotation
• How many teams in the league are there where players RAVE about the ownership & management where there aren't instances of BIG HOF players who also had beef with the same said franchises/management? Miami, LAL, Boston, Dallas, SAS... They all have horror stories I can point to with players, but their Franchise reputation is still intact... As a result, this differentiation you are trying I find to be a minor one with respect to the impact of Lowry's outgoing.

I mean, all those teams did right by their recent HOFers at the end save Miami, who then mended fences with DWade. It's still up for debate whether they can land another LeBron like talent, but they've been floating the idea of making plays on Durant and Giannis and (recently) Beal and the best they got was Jimmy Butler. But, as it pertains to the Raptors, we're closer to SAS here. We don't have the luxury of branding, beaches and ESPN's consent. It's more important to us that we gave Kyle a soft landing than some of those other teams.

[Dalek]

I would guess that Masai values Precious > Markkanen though. Assuming dragic has non-negative value.

Precious Achuiwa is 22 and a major project who likely only has value as a C because he can't shoot or do much other than defend. He would be several tiers behind Markkenan to me, considering how talented Lauri is as a scorer and potential PF/C.

Maybe Toronto can get Dragic to buy-in but to me it seems like such a weird fit for a rebuilding team. He is not close to the Chris Paul or Kyle Lowry level.

[c3luong]

I agree with the 1st poster however the S&T for Kyle is already agreed up on no matter what.
There’s no way that the Raps can back out at this point! It would be a disaster of epic proportion!

Something went wrong in the other part of the S&T hence the long hold up and I can’t wait to hear the spin masters aka Doug Smith, Grange, etc…to tell us how Dragic is a very good vet player worth spending $19M and Achiuwa is the best thing since slice bread.

It looks more and more likely that Dragic will suit up for us when the season starts and while he’s still producing quite a bit, he’s not worth spending 19M on our team, that much is clear. Moving him at the deadline will be easier but not a slam dunk given his big contract. A lot will depend on his production and his health!


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I mean technically we don't know if the Raptors ever agreed to a deal. I guess it's unlikely at this point, but it's possible that we never gave a firm yes to the Heat.

Yes of course the raptors agreed to it, it's the raptors looking to flip Dragic, the heat acting like over the cap team, Dragic saying he wants to be Dallas, Lowry saying good byes.

This could all be going on an assumed deal, not a confirmed one. I do concede that it's unlikely; but I don't think it's impossible that the Raptors never committed to the deal.

[phanman]

I wonder if Toronto needs to stay in this deal at all and that may indeed be the true hold-up.

Precious Achiuwa is not a guy I would move heaven and earth for and neither is $19m Goran Dragic. If Dallas or some other team is not going to absorb Dragic and/or provide assets, then what would be Toronto's incentive to help Miami out?

It is a nice favor to Kyle, but this is a business and I don't think Precious Achuiwa is worth Toronto eating $19m for Dragic (or even a partial amount after a buyout).

Conversely, say we don't do this deal and just let Kyle go here is what I think is available (maybe someone else can confirm these numbers)

$112m Total Salary Cap for 2021

$99.4m including Dekker and Trent Jr.
$8m per year (guess) for Khem Birch

$107-108m Active roster depending on a couple minimum deals

Getting creative - say the Raps waits to sign Birch using the MLE until we over the cap, and waits to sign Trent Jr. using Bird rights then it frees up around $24m - $26m before we hit the cap.

Toronto could sign a player like Lauri Markanen or Dennis Schroeder to a $20-25m deal to get to the cap, then sign Trent Jr and Birch after. We get better talent and roster balance and actually do something in free agency for once.

The deal has already been agreed upon, they are just looking to add onto if they can prior to the first day that it can be officially signed. There is no way in hell that Masai would back out because that would cause a huge mess in future trades and obviously ruin the point of doing right by Lowry.

People need to look pass Dragic's 19m salary and look at the contributions he can actually make for us in the first half of next season. We always have the trade deadline to move him and you need big salaries to bring back big name players.

Sorry, I am more pessimistic. I'd put the odds on Dragic just being bought out early before the season starts. Why would a 35 year even play a single game for a rebuilding team? It will be like Andre Iguadala sitting after Memphis traded for him.

I also doubt we would recoup anything for Dragic. He is a huge salary and unless we want a bad contract like Wiggins, we won't get any offers.

I highly doubt we buy out Dragic, there would be no point in doing so. Sure he is 35yo, but he has never struck me as a guy who would just plain sit out. The guy seems like someone who enjoys playing basketball to the fullest. He may not like going to a rebuilding team but we can definitely use his skillset to remain competitive.

The Iggy situation is completely different because it was mutually agreed upon by both parties that he would not report. Teams on the competitive bubble at the deadline would surely enjoy a win now vet like Dragic who has proven that he can be a solid rotation player for a playoff run.

[c3luong]

I would guess that Masai values Precious > Markkanen though. Assuming dragic has non-negative value.

Precious Achuiwa is 22 and a major project who likely only has value as a C because he can't shoot or do much other than defend. He would be several tiers behind Markkenan to me, considering how talented Lauri is as a scorer and potential PF/C.

Maybe Toronto can get Dragic to buy-in but to me it seems like such a weird fit for a rebuilding team. He is not close to the Chris Paul or Kyle Lowry level.

But the equation is Achuiwa on a rookie deal vs. Markkenan @ 15+M per. And just looking at who we like historically it's definitely not out of the question that we value Precious more (e.g. doesn't matter what you think, it matters what Masai thinks).

[douggood]

I would guess that Masai values Precious > Markkanen though. Assuming dragic has non-negative value.

spurs looked into making an offer sheet or fold markanen into the demar s&t but he is asking too much and seemingly going to accept the QO and become UFA next summer

[phillipmike]

Read on Twitter

[Stein] "Dallas will not jump into a trade. They're hoping Dragic makes his way into the free agent market. They don't want his 19 million. That could change. No guarantee Dragic ends up in Dallas."

Marc Stein, said the following on a Spotify Greenroom segment yesterday:

Dallas will not jump into a trade. They're hoping Dragic makes his way into the free agent market. They don't want his 19 million. That could change. No guarantee Dragic ends up in Dallas."

To recap:

Dallas wants Dragic. Toronto knows this and wants something for him.

Dragic wants to play in Dallas. Dallas knows this and would rather wait for a potential buyout than to give up assets for an expensive player on an expiring deal.

Something important to note is that Dragic's expiring contract is useless to Dallas. With Luka's max extension set to kick-in next season, the Mavs effectively won't see any of the $19M that would come off the books when Dragic's deal expires.

So we are either keeping Dragic or buying him out and getting more assets from Miami

[Rapsalot]

To me we should send GD and if we get back: Maxi K, Moses brown, Trey Burke & Josh R trade exception I’m good with that.

They get a good to very good backup C who can start in a pinch.

We get depth at PG and maybe we can flip Burke for a bigger PG down the road.
We get a decent 3 point shooting PF especially while PS out first part of year.
We get a bigger prospect C that is he keeps getting stronger and developing could be starter some day? 3 years value contract.
Plus if we see a chance to get better during year we have exception to maybe balance some cash.

[Dalek]

I would guess that Masai values Precious > Markkanen though. Assuming dragic has non-negative value.

Precious Achuiwa is 22 and a major project who likely only has value as a C because he can't shoot or do much other than defend. He would be several tiers behind Markkenan to me, considering how talented Lauri is as a scorer and potential PF/C.

Maybe Toronto can get Dragic to buy-in but to me it seems like such a weird fit for a rebuilding team. He is not close to the Chris Paul or Kyle Lowry level.

But the equation is Achuiwa on a rookie deal vs. Markkenan @ 15+M per. And just looking at who we like historically it's definitely not out of the question that we value Precious more (e.g. doesn't matter what you think, it matters what Masai thinks).

Fair enough. Raps like the long defenders who can't shoot.

I just think from a talent and future asset perspective Lauri has better long-term value even at a higher cap number. Look at this way, we have our core players and but no big deals that could be moved in a blockbuster type trade. Basically, we would have to move a core piece to do anything. Lauri is a proven scorer and the type of guy that another GM would value.

I think Achuiwa is really just a filler piece with low upside - that's why Miami doesn't care about losing him. Achuiwa would have to carve out a Bam Adebayo / Montrezl Harrel career to be valuable which is a huge stretch for me because he is so raw. If we got Herro, there is much more upside there for Toronto.

[Hero_Panda]

People keep saying Precious can't shoot, but have they watched him play? Heat fans have said Riley/Spoelstra forced him into a Bam role but he's shown to have a mid-ranger and a developing 3pt shot, and I've seen highlights from the Olympics where he makes a seldom 3. That at least that tells me there's something to work with there.

In terms of Dragic, I don't think anyone is saying that he sucks or washed, it's just that real prize of the trade was picks/Achiuwa with a good side addition of Okpala. Dragic really doesn't move the needle for this team from hopeful playoff contender to serious ECF contender, and he's definitely not young enough to join the youth movement...unless he pulls something like this in training camp...

Watch on YouTube

Spoiler:

Anyone know where I can get good quality, cheap price of that Music Band shirt?

[Asif16]

Can this thing be wrapped up by tonight? When is the deadline

[douggood]

Can this thing be wrapped up by tonight? When is the deadline

deals can start becoming official at aug 6th 12:01 am est

but this still might drag on for a day or 2 longer, unless raptors prefer achiuwa in summer league

[OAKLEY_2]

The deal has already been agreed upon, they are just looking to add onto if they can prior to the first day that it can be officially signed. There is no way in hell that Masai would back out because that would cause a huge mess in future trades and obviously ruin the point of doing right by Lowry.

People need to look pass Dragic's 19m salary and look at the contributions he can actually make for us in the first half of next season. We always have the trade deadline to move him and you need big salaries to bring back big name players.

I agree with the 1st poster however the S&T for Kyle is already agreed up on no matter what.
There’s no way that the Raps can back out at this point! It would be a disaster of epic proportion!

Something went wrong in the other part of the S&T hence the long hold up and I can’t wait to hear the spin masters aka Doug Smith, Grange, etc…to tell us how Dragic is a very good vet player worth spending $19M and Achiuwa is the best thing since slice bread.

It looks more and more likely that Dragic will suit up for us when the season starts and while he’s still producing quite a bit, he’s not worth spending 19M on our team, that much is clear. Moving him at the deadline will be easier but not a slam dunk given his big contract. A lot will depend on his production and his health!


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I mean technically we don't know if the Raptors ever agreed to a deal. I guess it's unlikely at this point, but it's possible that we never gave a firm yes to the Heat.

Not saying they won't find a landing spot for Dragic but... If stories are true they get more assets like Okpala and a pick dragging things out to keep Dragic. To me that is the reason for the delay. They want Okpala and the pick. Not filler bodies with shyte timelines. Dragic can go at the deadline or... be a big expiring in the offseason. Having space means the ability to absorb money players or take salary and picks as compensation.

[c3luong]

I think that I can see the appeal of this approach as we don't really have the assets to contend with our current pieces in a status-quo NBA. Like aside from OG and Barnes, all of our other assets in terms of value vs. contract are marginal at best by traditional NBA standards. So if we just play by the standard rules we will just probably suck.

On the other hand, if we assume that our bet is correct and that tall athletic guys are the future of the NBA, we can then contend if our assumption is correct, but risk flopping if we are wrong.

[Asif16]

Can this thing be wrapped up by tonight? When is the deadline

deals can start becoming official at aug 6th 12:01 am est

but this still might drag on for a day or 2 longer, unless raptors prefer achiuwa in summer league

I mean if Dallas really isn't playing ball on this...I dont know what the hold-up might be.

Unless they're trying to find another team to take Dragic? But I doubt it there are nay other teams out ther who are willing to play ball on this one