Trade Deadline Rumours & Discussion Thread II

[WaltFrazier]

Bench players are by definition not as good as the starters. So here's my question. If Masai actually furnished Nick with a "decent bench", would Nurse play them, or still ride his starters 40 minutes per game? Would Nick actually play Seth Curry, or Bones Nyland or Jose Alvarado or ... ? I don't see it. We'd have to have a bench of OG, Pascal and Fred-level players for them to get significant minutes.

Except for Patrick McCaw. If healthy, that guy would see 30-35 mpg.

I think a look at the 2020 team's minutes would tell a lot. No Kawhi, winning team, still good depth. I don't feel like looking it up though. But I'll guess no starter was playing as much as the starters now.

[vulture]

What a dumb thing to say. When I worked for MLSE, the mantra was how do we increase the value of our employees in the market place. It's not selfish when you are trying to motivate people to do better at their jobs. It's not selfish to get guys working harder to get paid. It's not selfish when you are trying to get people to get promoted. that's called life.

Anyway here is the full clip.

The nature of a basketball team is different than an office workplace though. In basketball not everyone can get as many shots and points as they want. There's an element of sacrificing your stats for the team success. The answer in sports is for management to make known to players they'll be rewarded for other things too, defense, sharing the ball, doing the hustle plays and dirty work. Not just points.

What the video walt. I know that is hard, but just watch it.

I watched it. I still see a possible conflict between individual contract success and team success.[/quote]

His first answer is winning, then getting guys better to increase their value in the market place.
If that is selfish then I must be living in an alternate world.

[Tor_Raps]

ok so name a play they ran other than a pick and roll and what they call it?

You think knowing the name of the plays they run determines your basketball knowledge and how to play it? People can learn that crap from playing 2K or Googling it lol.

Thanks for answering my question and have a great negative day my friend.

Loll horns, flex. The reason why we don't run more pick and roll is because Fred/Trent/OG are all horrible passers. Our best passers (Barnes/Siakam) are actually our worst shooters so it doesn't make sense to run it with them. Having a real Center who could set solid picks and either shoot the 3 or finish at the rim would help a lot too.

For the record, I don't give 2 craps about passing your "basketball test". It's like me asking if you've ever played basketball at any level in your life. Personally it's irreverent and I just don't care lol.

[vulture]

You think knowing the name of the plays they run determines your basketball knowledge and how to play it? People can learn that crap from playing 2K or Googling it lol.

Thanks for answering my question and have a great negative day my friend.

Loll horns, flex. The reason why we don't run more pick and roll is because Fred/Trent/OG are all horrible passers. Our best passers (Barnes/Siakam) are actually our worst shooters so it doesn't make sense to run it with them. Having a real Center who could set solid picks and either shoot the 3 or finish at the rim would help a lot too.

For the record, I don't give 2 craps about passing your "basketball test". It's like me asking if you've ever played basketball at any level in your life. Personally it's irreverent and I just don't care lol.

Which variation of Horns Flex and what do the raptors call it?
You said you played basketball so I'm putting through the test so let's go.

[WaltFrazier]

The nature of a basketball team is different than an office workplace though. In basketball not everyone can get as many shots and points as they want. There's an element of sacrificing your stats for the team success. The answer in sports is for management to make known to players they'll be rewarded for other things too, defense, sharing the ball, doing the hustle plays and dirty work. Not just points.

What the video walt. I know that is hard, but just watch it.

I watched it. I still see a possible conflict between individual contract success and team success.

His first answer is winning, then getting guys better to increase their value in the market place.
If that is selfish then I must be living in an alternate world.[/quote]

Then why are we having these seeming conflicts this season with roles, who dominates the ball, etc?

[Tor_Raps]

Thanks for answering my question and have a great negative day my friend.

Loll horns, flex. The reason why we don't run more pick and roll is because Fred/Trent/OG are all horrible passers. Our best passers (Barnes/Siakam) are actually our worst shooters so it doesn't make sense to run it with them. Having a real Center who could set solid picks and either shoot the 3 or finish at the rim would help a lot too.

For the record, I don't give 2 craps about passing your "basketball test". It's like me asking if you've ever played basketball at any level in your life. Personally it's irreverent and I just don't care lol.

Which variation of Horns Flex and what do the raptors call it?
You said you played basketball so I'm putting through the test so let's go.

Unless you're going to offer me a job, I'm done with this discussion lol.

[tecumseh18]

Bench players are by definition not as good as the starters. So here's my question. If Masai actually furnished Nick with a "decent bench", would Nurse play them, or still ride his starters 40 minutes per game? Would Nick actually play Seth Curry, or Bones Nyland or Jose Alvarado or ... ? I don't see it. We'd have to have a bench of OG, Pascal and Fred-level players for them to get significant minutes.

Except for Patrick McCaw. If healthy, that guy would see 30-35 mpg.

Of course he would. Look at the 2018-19 season. No one averaged more than 34mpg. Tons of players got rested throughout the year and Nurse used tons of guys off the bench. 2019-20 season was pretty good as well despite losing Kawhi and Green.

That's your counter-example? One of the deepest teams in NBA history, that went 17-5 when missing their superstar? We had a C rotation of Gasol and Ibaka. OG went from being a decent starter the year before to the bench in 2019. Norm and Fred could have started at the 2, but Danny won the position.

OK, granted, the current Raptors bench isn't as good as that. But Dowtin looks to be a decent two-way player when he gets a chance. We were all excited after Wieskamp finally got a chance to play, and then ... crickets. And now he's gone, like Champagnie who had some great moments last season with the big club, and this season with 905 before we cut him loose.

[vulture]

What the video walt. I know that is hard, but just watch it.

I watched it. I still see a possible conflict between individual contract success and team success.

His first answer is winning, then getting guys better to increase their value in the market place.
If that is selfish then I must be living in an alternate world.

Then why are we having these seeming conflicts this season with roles, who dominates the ball, etc?[/quote]

I'm not in the locker room and neither are you.
This has been a disappointing season, but the raptors have been a winning organization for a decade now. to say that Nick Nurse is responsible for selfish basketball is just baseless speculation. They are top 10 on offense and 20th on defense, so the right question is why is the defense is so bad. Not some nonsense about selfish basketball.

The negativity around here is over the top.

[vulture]

Loll horns, flex. The reason why we don't run more pick and roll is because Fred/Trent/OG are all horrible passers. Our best passers (Barnes/Siakam) are actually our worst shooters so it doesn't make sense to run it with them. Having a real Center who could set solid picks and either shoot the 3 or finish at the rim would help a lot too.

For the record, I don't give 2 craps about passing your "basketball test". It's like me asking if you've ever played basketball at any level in your life. Personally it's irreverent and I just don't care lol.

Which variation of Horns Flex and what do the raptors call it?
You said you played basketball so I'm putting through the test so let's go.

Unless you're going to offer me a job, I'm done with this discussion lol.

Thanks for playing

[Madvillainy2004]

Bench players are by definition not as good as the starters. So here's my question. If Masai actually furnished Nick with a "decent bench", would Nurse play them, or still ride his starters 40 minutes per game? Would Nick actually play Seth Curry, or Bones Nyland or Jose Alvarado or ... ? I don't see it. We'd have to have a bench of OG, Pascal and Fred-level players for them to get significant minutes.

Except for Patrick McCaw. If healthy, that guy would see 30-35 mpg.

Of course he would. Look at the 2018-19 season. No one averaged more than 34mpg. Tons of players got rested throughout the year and Nurse used tons of guys off the bench. 2019-20 season was pretty good as well despite losing Kawhi and Green.

That's your counter-example? One of the deepest teams in NBA history, that went 17-5 when missing their superstar? We had a C rotation of Gasol and Ibaka. OG went from being a decent starter the year before to the bench in 2019. Norm and Fred could have started at the 2, but Danny won the position.

OK, granted, the current Raptors bench isn't as good as that. But Dowtin looks to be a decent two-way player when he gets a chance. We were all excited after Wieskamp finally got a chance to play, and then ... crickets. And now he's gone, like Champagnie who had some great moments last season with the big club, and this season with 905 before we cut him loose.

You're comparing having bench pieces like Powell/OG/Ibaka/Fred to Dowtin/Champagnie/Wisekamp. I'd be surprised if any of those guys played in the NBA after this season. It's a tough ask to just trust 2 way/barely NBA players to play real bench minutes. Maybe they should've got more run in Wisekamp and Champagnies case but I doubt those guys sniff a NBA court anywhere else regardless.

[ChillPill]

I remember hearing something about Marc Gasol, after he had left the team for free agency, saying that he felt the Raps were asking too much of him / more than he could offer. Hence why he went to the Lakers. I think Nurse asks way too much of his starters. It's no wonder there are reports of our unhappy players.

[tecumseh18]

Bench players are by definition not as good as the starters. So here's my question. If Masai actually furnished Nick with a "decent bench", would Nurse play them, or still ride his starters 40 minutes per game? Would Nick actually play Seth Curry, or Bones Nyland or Jose Alvarado or ... ? I don't see it. We'd have to have a bench of OG, Pascal and Fred-level players for them to get significant minutes.

Except for Patrick McCaw. If healthy, that guy would see 30-35 mpg.

I think a look at the 2020 team's minutes would tell a lot. No Kawhi, winning team, still good depth. I don't feel like looking it up though. But I'll guess no starter was playing as much as the starters now.

2020 had a lot of injuries. That was part of the miracle of that season, with Raptors ending up with the 2nd best winning percentage in the league. But before the early season westcoast road trip, this board was sure whining about the heavy minutes. Then Serge and Kyle got hurt against the Pelicans, and Nurse was forced to start Norm and play guys like Boucher and Rondae. And that's when the season really turned around.

This years' Raps have had a ton of injuries, too. And there have been some times when Nick would play the bench with success. Thad and Juancho seem to really play well together. So Nick then split them up. Dowtin has looked good. Koloko has great on-off stats. Dalano was amazing in Detroit, flashing a 3-ball I just didn't expect to see.

But there's no consistency. If you play well, like Wieskamp is his big game last week, you still won't get a second chance. Not on a B2B, not ever.

[WaltFrazier]

I watched it. I still see a possible conflict between individual contract success and team success.

His first answer is winning, then getting guys better to increase their value in the market place.
If that is selfish then I must be living in an alternate world.

Then why are we having these seeming conflicts this season with roles, who dominates the ball, etc?

I'm not in the locker room and neither are you.
This has been a disappointing season, but the raptors have been a winning organization for a decade now. to say that Nick Nurse is responsible for selfish basketball is just baseless speculation. They are top 10 on offense and 20th on defense, so the right question is why is the defense is so bad. Not some nonsense about selfish basketball.

The negativity around here is over the top.[/quote]

I wouldn't say he promotes selfish basketball, but that the system is too free form considering the talent we have. There are clearly times when the ball moves and is shared more, and times when we go more iso heavy.

What measurement has us 10th in offense, I'm curious. Our half court offense is worse than that, isn't it?

[tecumseh18]

Of course he would. Look at the 2018-19 season. No one averaged more than 34mpg. Tons of players got rested throughout the year and Nurse used tons of guys off the bench. 2019-20 season was pretty good as well despite losing Kawhi and Green.

That's your counter-example? One of the deepest teams in NBA history, that went 17-5 when missing their superstar? We had a C rotation of Gasol and Ibaka. OG went from being a decent starter the year before to the bench in 2019. Norm and Fred could have started at the 2, but Danny won the position.

OK, granted, the current Raptors bench isn't as good as that. But Dowtin looks to be a decent two-way player when he gets a chance. We were all excited after Wieskamp finally got a chance to play, and then ... crickets. And now he's gone, like Champagnie who had some great moments last season with the big club, and this season with 905 before we cut him loose.

You're comparing having bench pieces like Powell/OG/Ibaka/Fred to Dowtin/Champagnie/Wisekamp. I'd be surprised if any of those guys played in the NBA after this season. It's a tough ask to just trust 2 way/barely NBA players to play real bench minutes. Maybe they should've got more run in Wisekamp and Champagnies case but I doubt those guys sniff a NBA court anywhere else regardless.

Exactly, I'm saying that Nick will only play the bench when the bench are starting quality players - like Norm, OG, Ibaka and Fred. And that's messed up.

[WaltFrazier]

Bench players are by definition not as good as the starters. So here's my question. If Masai actually furnished Nick with a "decent bench", would Nurse play them, or still ride his starters 40 minutes per game? Would Nick actually play Seth Curry, or Bones Nyland or Jose Alvarado or ... ? I don't see it. We'd have to have a bench of OG, Pascal and Fred-level players for them to get significant minutes.

Except for Patrick McCaw. If healthy, that guy would see 30-35 mpg.

I think a look at the 2020 team's minutes would tell a lot. No Kawhi, winning team, still good depth. I don't feel like looking it up though. But I'll guess no starter was playing as much as the starters now.

2020 had a lot of injuries. That was part of the miracle of that season, with Raptors ending up with the 2nd best winning percentage in the league. But before the early season westcoast road trip, this board was sure whining about the heavy minutes. Then Serge and Kyle got hurt against the Pelicans, and Nurse was forced to start Norm and play guys like Boucher and Rondae. And that's when the season really turned around.

This years' Raps have had a ton of injuries, too. And there have been some times when Nick would play the bench with success. Thad and Juancho seem to really play well together. So Nick then split them up. Dowtin has looked good. Koloko has great on-off stats. Dalano was amazing in Detroit, flashing a 3-ball I just didn't expect to see.

But there's no consistency. If you play well, like Wieskamp is his big game last week, you still won't get a second chance. Not on a B2B, not ever.

I wish Dowtin would become the new Patrick McCaw, it would work out well for everyone,

[Los_29]

Bench players are by definition not as good as the starters. So here's my question. If Masai actually furnished Nick with a "decent bench", would Nurse play them, or still ride his starters 40 minutes per game? Would Nick actually play Seth Curry, or Bones Nyland or Jose Alvarado or ... ? I don't see it. We'd have to have a bench of OG, Pascal and Fred-level players for them to get significant minutes.

Except for Patrick McCaw. If healthy, that guy would see 30-35 mpg.

Of course he would. Look at the 2018-19 season. No one averaged more than 34mpg. Tons of players got rested throughout the year and Nurse used tons of guys off the bench. 2019-20 season was pretty good as well despite losing Kawhi and Green.

That's your counter-example? One of the deepest teams in NBA history, that went 17-5 when missing their superstar? We had a C rotation of Gasol and Ibaka. OG went from being a decent starter the year before to the bench in 2019. Norm and Fred could have started at the 2, but Danny won the position.

OK, granted, the current Raptors bench isn't as good as that. But Dowtin looks to be a decent two-way player when he gets a chance. We were all excited after Wieskamp finally got a chance to play, and then ... crickets. And now he's gone, like Champagnie who had some great moments last season with the big club, and this season with 905 before we cut him loose.

You asked if Nurse would play his bench if Masai furnished him with one. The answer is yes. Of course he would play guys like Jose Alvarado.

Why are you comparing G-League players to actual NBA rotation players? Champagnie garnered zero NBA interest. Dowtin is a 26 year old career G-Leaguer and Wieskamp couldn’t crack a tanking team’s roster and is currently unemployed.

[ItsDanger]

I remember hearing something about Marc Gasol, after he had left the team for free agency, saying that he felt the Raps were asking too much of him / more than he could offer. Hence why he went to the Lakers. I think Nurse asks way too much of his starters. It's no wonder there are reports of our unhappy players.

For him, the running around on switches and to the 3 pt line was a little much on his body.

[Los_29]

That's your counter-example? One of the deepest teams in NBA history, that went 17-5 when missing their superstar? We had a C rotation of Gasol and Ibaka. OG went from being a decent starter the year before to the bench in 2019. Norm and Fred could have started at the 2, but Danny won the position.

OK, granted, the current Raptors bench isn't as good as that. But Dowtin looks to be a decent two-way player when he gets a chance. We were all excited after Wieskamp finally got a chance to play, and then ... crickets. And now he's gone, like Champagnie who had some great moments last season with the big club, and this season with 905 before we cut him loose.

You're comparing having bench pieces like Powell/OG/Ibaka/Fred to Dowtin/Champagnie/Wisekamp. I'd be surprised if any of those guys played in the NBA after this season. It's a tough ask to just trust 2 way/barely NBA players to play real bench minutes. Maybe they should've got more run in Wisekamp and Champagnies case but I doubt those guys sniff a NBA court anywhere else regardless.

Exactly, I'm saying that Nick will only play the bench when the bench are starting quality players - like Norm, OG, Ibaka and Fred. And that's messed up.

And that’s not true. Also, Norm, OG and Fred were fringe starters at best in 2018-19. No one would ever think that Terence Davis, Delon Wright, RHJ, Chris Boucher and McCaw were starting quality players and yet they all played for Nurse.

[Yeezus_]

Hate how so many of you guys make your arguments on the basis of so many assumptions.

[ItsDanger]

I assume the roster has problems when the record is 23-28 and worse against the best teams. That should be the basis of any conclusions.