Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 6

[TheGeneral99]

I cant properly gage Barnes when Siakam will still be taking the brunt of responsibilities on offense

For young guys they need to fail with no safety net, eventually they get used to the work load.

I don't agree with this.

There needs to a balance of letting players play through mistakes, but also learning the right habits.

Kawhi, for example, played on an elite Spurs team and was the 3rd/4th option from 2011-2014. That didn't stop him from becoming an elite offensive weapon by 2016.

Kobe, joined a really good Lakers team that just got Shaq and was behind guys like Eddie Jones and Nick Van Exel in the pecking order. That didn't stop him emerging as an elite offensive player by year 3.

Harden joined a really good Thunder team as a 3rd option coming off the bench and that didn't stop him becoming an elite offensive weapon.

all three of those guys took off after they were handed the keys, not before (although they showed glimpses).

Kawhi became elite after Duncan, Manu & Parker starter to age out.

Kobe took that next step in year 3 after they traded Van Exel & Jones.

Harden became the first option after being traded to Houston.

context matters. opportunity also matters.

Kawhi became elite because after 3-4 years in the league because he steadily became a much more polished offensive player. Go look at highlights of Kawhi in 2013/2014 and compare to 2016/2017, you can see major improvement.

Kobe still was the #2 option after a prime Shaq, but that didn't stop him from becoming an elite offensive scorer.

Harden averaged 17ppg and was the 6th man of the year despite playing under both Durant and Westbrook.

All I'm saying that having Siakam ahead of him offensively is zero excuse for Scottie not to be able to emerge offensively.

This idea that a young emerging player can't play next to another offensive scorer is absurd. It's not like Siakam is strictly a shooter with a crazy high usage rate, he's a solid passer and defender as well.

Here is an example: Siakam was able to emerge in just his 3rd season as a borderline all-star player winning the MIP despite being playing with guys like Lowry, Kawhi, Ibaka and JV/Gasol that season. Siakam averaged 17ppg on 55%fg and 37% 3fg essentially as the 3rd offensive option on the team most nights. Did having Lowry and Kawhi that year stifle his development?

[ATLTimekeeper]

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I mean, all hook shots are contested or should be. That's the point of them. We need to know how he looks outside of 10 feet, because that's going to make or break him as an important player in the league.

[YogurtProducer]

Look, I'm going to use one example AND then extrapolate to everything else. You know, because that just makes a lot of sense. LOL

Not sure who you are responding to.

Are you saying that if Barnes is the #2 option under Siakam it's impossible to gauge how good he is and his progress will be stifled? Or are you responding to someone else?

There is no reason why Barnes as the #2 or #3 offensive option can't still eventually develop into a very strong offensive player. This idea that Siakam needs to be gone for Barnes to actually flourish is really overstated.

and incredibly ironic considering Danger's entire schtick is cherry picking and extrapolating

[Madvillainy2004]

I don't agree with this.

There needs to a balance of letting players play through mistakes, but also learning the right habits.

Kawhi, for example, played on an elite Spurs team and was the 3rd/4th option from 2011-2014. That didn't stop him from becoming an elite offensive weapon by 2016.

Kobe, joined a really good Lakers team that just got Shaq and was behind guys like Eddie Jones and Nick Van Exel in the pecking order. That didn't stop him emerging as an elite offensive player by year 3.

Harden joined a really good Thunder team as a 3rd option coming off the bench and that didn't stop him becoming an elite offensive weapon.

all three of those guys took off after they were handed the keys, not before (although they showed glimpses).

Kawhi became elite after Duncan, Manu & Parker starter to age out.

Kobe took that next step in year 3 after they traded Van Exel & Jones.

Harden became the first option after being traded to Houston.

context matters. opportunity also matters.

Kawhi became elite because after 3-4 years in the league because he steadily became a much more polished offensive player. Go look at highlights of Kawhi in 2013/2014 and compare to 2016/2017, you can see major improvement.

Kobe still was the #2 option after a prime Shaq, but that didn't stop him from becoming an elite offensive scorer.

Harden averaged 17ppg and was the 6th man of the year despite playing under both Durant and Westbrook.

All I'm saying that having Siakam ahead of him offensively is zero excuse for Scottie not to be able to emerge offensively.

This idea that a young emerging player can't play next to another offensive scorer is absurd. It's not like Siakam is strictly a shooter with a crazy high usage rate, he's a solid passer and defender as well.

Here is an example: Siakam was able to emerge in just his 3rd season as a borderline all-star player winning the MIP despite being playing with guys like Lowry, Kawhi, Ibaka and JV/Gasol that season. Siakam averaged 17ppg on 55%fg and 37% 3fg essentially as the 3rd offensive option on the team most nights. Did having Lowry and Kawhi that year stifle his development?

Good talent will win out, Fred is gone and the Raptors have already said he's gonna be the focus. If he doesn't perform its on him imo. The team is set up to he his. Siakam really doesn't eat that many possessions. At least not as much as the tier 1 first options. The possessions/touches are there for him and saying we can't judge him till siakam is gone is ludicrous imo. Personally I think he'll step up and be a near all star.

[Tha Cynic]

When Van Vleet was here, Barnes definitely had trouble getting the ball where he wanted. VV would routinely look in the opposite direction or dribble the ball to the other side of the court when Barnes asked for it. There just wasn't a great relationship there, and it was obvious. This stuff can definitely hinder a young player who's playing behind an organization golden child like FVV who could do no wrong under a personality like Nurse. The system was basically what FVV wanted it to be.

With Siakam, that's not an issue as he has always been willing to play as a team and doesn't show bitterness on the court with how he plays - it will be all on Barnes.

[SkywalkerAC]

Again, there's a difference between development and putting up gaudy numbers. Usually young players develop off the bench, in practice, and with limited usage. So I take issue with the idea that Scottie's development was 100% stifled, that just is not how early career basketball development works.

Were his usage and ability to put up guady numbers hampered with Fred and last year's team? Sure. But he still developed and will continue to do so this season (yes, even alongside Pascal), and his numbers and impact will tick up with his usage and leadership role this season.

People wanted allstar performance-impact from Scottie last season, I get that - we all did. But putting up allstar-calibre performances is not the only route to improvement, and I'd argue it is putting the cart in front of the horse.

Bottomline, performance and development overlap but they are very different things that get conflated because development should result in improved performance over time.

[tsherkin]

I mean, all hook shots are contested or should be. That's the point of them. We need to know how he looks outside of 10 feet, because that's going to make or break him as an important player in the league.

I don't know that anything that's happening right now is going to be of relevance. I remember too many seasons where Kwame Brown or Dwight Howard had a nice preseason with their jumper and it never materialized in the RS, or showed for like 10 games and then vanished. Those are specific examples I remember tracking, but preseason means so little it's not usually worth getting excited over. 20 games into the season, if he's consistently making shots he was struggling with previously, that'll be something worth noting.

[PushDaRock]

When Van Vleet was here, Barnes definitely had trouble getting the ball where he wanted. VV would routinely look in the opposite direction or dribble the ball to the other side of the court when Barnes asked for it. There just wasn't a great relationship there, and it was obvious. This stuff can definitely hinder a young player who's playing behind an organization golden child like FVV who could do no wrong under a personality like Nurse. The system was basically what FVV wanted it to be.

With Siakam, that's not an issue as he has always been willing to play as a team and doesn't show bitterness on the court with how he plays - it will be all on Barnes.

The signs were there really from the start. FVV talked a lot about the sacrifices he was making in regards to not having the ball in his hands early on last year and how he expected to be rewarded contract wise for doing so. Both sides intended on him coming back as you never really want to lose a player for nothing but it seems this breakup was for the best for everyone involved. FVV got his massive deal and more opportunity for the players still here to take on bigger roles.

[Vampirate]

I mean, all hook shots are contested or should be. That's the point of them. We need to know how he looks outside of 10 feet, because that's going to make or break him as an important player in the league.

I don't know that anything that's happening right now is going to be of relevance. I remember too many seasons where Kwame Brown or Dwight Howard had a nice preseason with their jumper and it never materialized in the RS, or showed for like 10 games and then vanished. Those are specific examples I remember tracking, but preseason means so little it's not usually worth getting excited over. 20 games into the season, if he's consistently making shots he was struggling with previously, that'll be something worth noting.

There's a massive difference between the 3 though.

Dwight was a pure center, Kwame's shooting numbers are all over the board.

As for Barnes, even last year he has some range.

From 16-3P range last year he shot .369, he looks bad because he shot under 30% from 10-16 feet. The year prior he shot .398 from 10-16 feet so it's anyone's guess which how good/bad inside the 3 point line he is.

However this is the 2nd year in a row Barnes has shot close to 40% from that range, there's something there and it's not out of reason to have him shoot over 40% from that range. I'm not expecting him to be KD or anything, but shooting .450+ from mid range shouldn't be out of the question here.

[tsherkin]

There's a massive difference between the 3 though.

Dwight was a pure center, Kwame's shooting numbers are all over the board.

As for Barnes, even last year he has some range.

From 16-3P range last year he shot .369, he looks bad because he shot under 30% from 10-16 feet. The year prior he shot .398 from 10-16 feet so it's anyone's guess which how good/bad inside the 3 point line he is.

That... doesn't really help your point. Yes, those two specific examples were not precisely the same as Scottie because Barnes is competent at the foul line and they were deadly incompetent there.

However this is the 2nd year in a row Barnes has shot close to 40% from that range, there's something there and it's not out of reason to have him shoot over 40% from that range. I'm not expecting him to be KD or anything, but shooting .450+ from mid range shouldn't be out of the question here.

41.4% was league average from 16-3P range last year. Scottie's only taking a little more than 8% of his FGAs from that range, so his exact shooting ability is tough to gauge. From 10-16 feet, there was a wild difference between his two seasons, for sure, and again, he's averaged about 10% of his attempts from that range, so it's hard to gauge. League average at that range was 44.7% last year, though, so either way, it's a sizeable gap. He hasn't shown us comfort, consistency or efficacy from there.

I'm not saying he can't develop, what I'm saying is much more specific: nothing that happens in the preseason means anything of value at all. We'll have to wait until we're into the season to see what's going on with his shot, as I said in my post.

Meantime, no, he hasn't really shown "some range." He's shown that he's mediocre or outright bad from beyond ten feet. We are hoping that, based on his continued work and youth and all of those things which do line up for him, that he will improve there. And I think no one is expecting him to be Dirk or 97 Jordan or anything foolish of that sort. Just hovering around league average at decent volume, and being able to leverage the shot to manipulate the defense.

That, we won't have a really good sense of for 20 or 30 games, and realistically, by the end of the season. We see first-half runs and other short bursts all the time, so it'd be nice to see more than like a month and a half of him shooting before we judge too much, you know? That's all I'm saying.

I wasn't comparing him directly to Kwame or Dwight, just making some notes about player development.

[canada_dry]

High peeeeeek n' roll for Scottie

Picky roll

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[OakleyDokely]

A lot is being made about the offensive end, but I'd like to see how he's used defensively, I think that's where you can unlock a lot of upside almost immediately.

Nurse used him against everyone. He consistently ranked as one of the most versatile defenders in the league in his first two years. This probably limited his impact overall because his ideal role isn't as a POA defender against quick guards. He can definitely switch onto them and hold his own, but I think he's at his best as on off ball defender wreaking havoc on the weak side. Now that the Raps have a legit rim protector in Poeltl, Barnes can freelance a bit more and use that size, reach, length to disrupt a lot of actions.

[canada_dry]

I hope this FO remembers how valuable guard play is again in the future and pairs Scottie up with a young all nba caliber guard at some point in his career.

It would be such a shame for him to never experience that luxury. His strengths are basically begging to be paired up with one.

But one thats also good off ball so scottie can still flex his on ball "ambitions" lets call them.

Lebron for example had:jeff mcginnis AND eric snow then mo williams then dwayne wade then kyrie irving, etc etc.

A star guard is still necessary and very helpful once we're in the meat and potatoes of scotties career and prime. Giving him reps now is fine. Even giannis had reps as a point guard to help develop him.

It may not be the end goal though.



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[canada_dry]

When Van Vleet was here, Barnes definitely had trouble getting the ball where he wanted. VV would routinely look in the opposite direction or dribble the ball to the other side of the court when Barnes asked for it. There just wasn't a great relationship there, and it was obvious. This stuff can definitely hinder a young player who's playing behind an organization golden child like FVV who could do no wrong under a personality like Nurse. The system was basically what FVV wanted it to be.

With Siakam, that's not an issue as he has always been willing to play as a team and doesn't show bitterness on the court with how he plays - it will be all on Barnes.

Agreed. The preemptive excuses are weird to me. Its year 3. Year 3 is critical.

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[Mikistan]

YeAr 3 iS cRiTiCaL
We KnOw A 22 yEaR oLd'S pOtEnTiAl bAsEd On YeAr 3

[ATLTimekeeper]

I mean, all hook shots are contested or should be. That's the point of them. We need to know how he looks outside of 10 feet, because that's going to make or break him as an important player in the league.

I don't know that anything that's happening right now is going to be of relevance. I remember too many seasons where Kwame Brown or Dwight Howard had a nice preseason with their jumper and it never materialized in the RS, or showed for like 10 games and then vanished. Those are specific examples I remember tracking, but preseason means so little it's not usually worth getting excited over. 20 games into the season, if he's consistently making shots he was struggling with previously, that'll be something worth noting.

I definitely wasn't meaning pre-season. I mean this year it'd be nice if he could not be straight *** from beyond 10ft, given all our UFAs and management signalling the intention is to build around him. Unless he is able to do a Giannis impression, he's going to have to give us more than hook shots.

[Madvillainy2004]

YeAr 3 iS cRiTiCaL
We KnOw A 22 yEaR oLd'S pOtEnTiAl bAsEd On YeAr 3

Based on previous evidence year 3 is pretty critical in determining maybe not his max ceiling but it'll give an idea on where he is at. And what Scottie is or isn't changes a lot about what this team will do going forward. I don't think anyone is saying it's a be all end all. But we need to know if he's a tier 1 build a team around him guy or a Siakam level all star or a Igoudala level player.

[Duffman100]

YeAr 3 iS cRiTiCaL
We KnOw A 22 yEaR oLd'S pOtEnTiAl bAsEd On YeAr 3

Can you please actually offer value to the conversation. This post does nothing to actually further conversation in a tangible way.

[tsherkin]

I definitely wasn't meaning pre-season. I mean this year it'd be nice if he could not be straight *** from beyond 10ft, given all our UFAs and management signalling the intention is to build around him. Unless he is able to do a Giannis impression, he's going to have to give us more than hook shots.

For sure. That was only half to you anyway. I agree with you that he needs more than hook shots, though we could be putting him in position to use that shot a little more often and it would be a good idea. But for fully taking advantage of his potential, he absolutely needs to gain more reliable range.

[TorontoBarneys]

YeAr 3 iS cRiTiCaL
We KnOw A 22 yEaR oLd'S pOtEnTiAl bAsEd On YeAr 3

People really out here getting filtered by this high IQ, multi-layered esoteric post.

The same people thinking it's a make-or-break situation for Barnes are the same people who would have traded him for Dame in a heartbeat.